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Old January 22, 2020, 11:42 AM   #51
Metric
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In the event of an actual bear charge, pretty much everyone is going to have an urgent wish for something like a 12 gauge with magnum slugs. We all get that.

But it is very welcome news that we are not completely helpless in the event of getting caught out in the open with a pistol in 10mm or even a 9mm. It can legitimately save your bacon against large brown bears. That is very different from the conventional wisdom I heard as a kid -- that you might as well use a pistol to blow your brains out, because the bullet just wasn't going to have anywhere near useful penetration. It's nice that people are making an effort to cobble together some facts.

It's good news because there are a huge number of scenarios where the main risk is human encounters, but the bear risk is not exactly zero.
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Old January 22, 2020, 12:13 PM   #52
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Anyone using a 9mm pistol (regardless of load) to stop or turn a charge by a big Alaskan bruin is either a complete idiot ... or a reckless 'show-off' trying to impress clients or, in Shoemaker's case, also editors of gun-rags so he can send them yet another 'bear' article detailing his 'harrowing adventures' and 'death-defying feats' in the 'dangerous wilds of Alaska.'

Either way, trying to sell folks on a 9mm 'bear-stopper' load, like BB's 147gn hardcast load, is only going to get people killed.

If you have to deal with a 'surprise visit' by an agressive AK bear with a pistol, here's a relatively recent news piece (below) signaling the correct way to do it, ... which is also the same way soldiers of the Danish Sledge Patrol Sirius handle unexpected polar bear attacks in the arctic circle regions of Greenland to which they're assigned. They're also not trying to pull stunts so they can write articles about it later for readers of Rifle magazine.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/ala...#axzz6BbgdF2ZW

I will go along with this. Someone mentioned that if it as all you can handle fo what ever reason, use it. I'd say if it's all you can handle carry a suitable rifl or stay out of bar country. You go in and wound one, after the bear tears you apart someone else is gonna have to go in after a wounded bear or some inspecting hiker will find it by accident! Very rude to go in to country like that with some under armed cartridge and risk leaving a wounded dangerous animal for someone else to deal with.
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Old January 22, 2020, 02:46 PM   #53
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If nothing else, I think that we can all agree that 9mm Luger isn't the best choice for Bear Defense. All this proves is that 9mm Luger CAN be effective against bears, but that was already pretty much a given considering that there have been reports of bears being killed by pretty much every cartridge at some point or another, including .22LR.

I think that folks are taking this article way too seriously, considering statements that it's going to get people killed. I doubt that the article nor the occurrence within will convince anybody to carry their LC9s into bear country.
Honestly, I doubt that even the most adamant of 9mm Fanboys who go around touting it as the ultimate, all-purpose, self-defense cartridge which has effectively rendered all other pistol cartridges obsolete would be willing to stake their lives on it by trekking into the wilderness armed only with a 9mm Pistol.
Heck, I doubt that even Phil Shoemaker himself will exclusively carry 9mm after the dust settles and he has had time to consider the fact that he's responsible for more lives than his own in his profession, not to mention the possibility that it could have been a fluke and that next time it might not be as affective.

If anything, I imagine this article is more likely to wake people up that you shouldn't trust everything you read as objective fact, and illustrate the results of confirmation biased/positive feedback loops now that the glowing articles on the 9mm Luger cartridge are finally beginning to jump the shark.
It's one thing to say that modern hollow point technology has placed 9mm Luger on par with .40 S&W or .45 ACP according to the parameters of FBI/IWBA ballistics testing, or that if loaded hot enough it can equal the Kinetic energy of .40 S&W or .45 ACP, but once you start trying to push it as being just as effective against bears as .44 Magnum, that's the point where folks are going to stop paying any heed to these articles because it's completely absurd.
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Old January 22, 2020, 04:36 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
I will go along with this. Someone mentioned that if it as all you can handle fo what ever reason, use it. I'd say if it's all you can handle carry a suitable rifl or stay out of bar country. You go in and wound one, after the bear tears you apart someone else is gonna have to go in after a wounded bear or some inspecting hiker will find it by accident! Very rude to go in to country like that with some under armed cartridge and risk leaving a wounded dangerous animal for someone else to deal with.
To be fair, I did recommend he change his career and not put anyone else's life in danger if that is the only gun he can handle. If I could not carry a big bore or at a minimum a Glock 20 or equivalent, I don't think I would be so adventurous in AK or out west. And your point about wounding a bear and not finishing the job, that's another great reason not to have a 9mm as a primary. That's like making a ticking time bomb someone else's problem.
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Old January 22, 2020, 04:52 PM   #55
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This thread has been a tease and a disappointment from the beginning. First it starts out with "I hate to start another pistol vs bear thread", but then does

then it names an incident that apparently some people know about and where it is written up, but no one tells the rest of us where that is so we can read it ourselves...

then we go on with people making assumptions about information not provided and so on and so on....

Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did.

If he did, WHERE did he? absent that small bit of info its all just rumor.

He put people in danger, he needs to find a new line of work and so on
all I see is a report that a 9mm was used to kill a bear. And damn little else.
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Old January 22, 2020, 05:20 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
This thread has been a tease and a disappointment from the beginning. First it starts out with "I hate to start another pistol vs bear thread", but then does

then it names an incident that apparently some people know about and where it is written up, but no one tells the rest of us where that is so we can read it ourselves...

then we go on with people making assumptions about information not provided and so on and so on....

Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did.

If he did, WHERE did he? absent that small bit of info its all just rumor.

He put people in danger, he needs to find a new line of work and so on
all I see is a report that a 9mm was used to kill a bear. And damn little else.
This isn't a new story to some of us. I've read his original story and remember it form BB's site. Here it is: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=388 Scroll Down.

"Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did."
Why is the guide carrying it if he didn't think it was a good bear load? 33 years guiding, what are we supposed to think he thinks is the biggest threat out there? In the original website by the OP, he thought he would have less problems with the males than sows with cubs.

Are you doubting he put people in danger? Seriously?

Why don't you post some format and criteria that we can all fill in the blanks to make you happy.
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Old January 22, 2020, 05:29 PM   #57
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Hardcast bullets, proper placement by an experienced guide. Problem solved.

My big take away form all this? The threads asking if .357 Magnum is big enough for whitetail and the debate it gets.

On the same forum.
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Old January 22, 2020, 07:03 PM   #58
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Are you doubting he put people in danger? Seriously?
yes, actually, I am.

You are, of course free to look at it any way you want, but to me, you could say the bear put people in danger or you could say the people put themselves in danger by voluntarily going into "bear country". And keeping in mind that the guide was equally in danger, and apparently the only one armed, and able to do something about it, and he did, AND was successful, I don't see that he put people in danger, rather the opposite.

We can argue about how his choice (and why he made it) differs from what we would choose, the fact remains no people were injured.

Not having ANY gun would be something that would bother me. Having a gun deemed "insufficient" by most people BUT USING IT SUCCUSSFULLY is, to me a much different matter.
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Old January 22, 2020, 07:51 PM   #59
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Hardcast bullets, proper placement by an experienced guide. Problem solved.

My big take away form all this? The threads asking if .357 Magnum is big enough for whitetail and the debate it gets.

On the same forum.
Yup, couldn't agree more.
I would have no problem using the same choice he made.
Just as Ive been hunting with 357 Magnum for decades (revolver and rifle) and have had excellent results.

Our continent was explored and settled by men armed with rifles that often could barely break 500 ft/lbs with a lowly lead sphere, and successfully used them to take some of the largest game/predators on earth. Yet in our modern "educated" era, people scoff at the notion of using a 3" 357 revolver, producing close to 600 ft/lbs of hi-tec high-tech projectile, on piddly deer.


IMO too many people today invest emotion into their caliber choices, instead of rational thought, logic, history, and first hand experience. I suspect in large part as an ill guided, distorted form of machismo, just look at all the rhetoric thrown about in caliber discussions. Or the countless articles and advertising of the latest "wonder ammo", and the most cringeworthy....."gel tests".

Well over half a century hunting, more than four decades in law enforcement combined, and I have yet to see a wound that mimicked any gel test. I've met folks that literally believe what bullets do in gel, is what they do in people/animals.

Practice
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Penetration
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Old January 22, 2020, 08:21 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
yes, actually, I am.

You are, of course free to look at it any way you want, but to me, you could say the bear put people in danger or you could say the people put themselves in danger by voluntarily going into "bear country". And keeping in mind that the guide was equally in danger, and apparently the only one armed, and able to do something about it, and he did, AND was successful, I don't see that he put people in danger, rather the opposite.

We can argue about how his choice (and why he made it) differs from what we would choose, the fact remains no people were injured.

Not having ANY gun would be something that would bother me. Having a gun deemed "insufficient" by most people BUT USING IT SUCCUSSFULLY is, to me a much different matter.
The guy gets lucky and people want to chalk this up to skill. Amazing.

Whenever you go into a dangerous area, you have to do what you can to maximize your chances of survival. Anything less is negligent. Did Phil know he would get time for 8 shots that day? Not sure how many stories I've read of someone getting 8 shots on a bear in 3 different areas of the scene... pretty much just this story. So Phil knew the scenario that would present itself would allow him to get off a few shots, then the bear would stop and swat and thrash at his impacts and then after the bear is done swatting or posing for more shots, run off into the wood line and collapse? Who would plan for that? What is the more likely scenario we plan for in AK? Me, it's a sudden charge hoping you have time to get a one shot off. And do you drill with a 9mm?

Maybe I am off on how I look at the responsibility of a guide. I picture a guide with a couple from NY and I assume this guide is not just there to operate a GPS and let them know when it's time to eat lunch. If I'm guiding someone or group I'm not going to give them a safety brief before we depart that reads like a list of ways I'm not responsible for their lives. I don't expect the guide to be responsible for their lives if there is an earthquake, but to help them enjoy their trip safely and make sure they're alive, that is the minimum I would expect of myself as a guide. This is a couple by a river and not a hunting party.

I asked some questions in my other post. Who here would be comfortable knowing their friends or family were headed off to coastal brown bear territory with a guide that just has a 9mm? Let's say you have some life long friends that don't know anything about guns and they're checking in with you before they head out and you ask them a few questions about this guide and what he's carrying. How about if they are your family? Do you just say, "good luck Dad, I hope this guide knows what he's doing?"

Me, I'm asking to them to put the guide on the phone. I wouldn't be interested in hearing any BS about why he is just taking a 9mm, I don't care if they are Kryptonite FN. In my former profession, hitting fast moving targets is expected of us, under high stress. I consider a brown bear in dense brush to be as dangerous a situation as there could be. There is not one person I know that would, 1, use a 9mm intentionally to go up against a brown bear or feel like they were adequately armed if there was even a remote possibility of a brown bear being around, and 2, there is no one I would agree to have cover me with a 9mm in that scenario.

I've seen enough worst case scenarios play out. I don't plan based on the best case scenario.

ADDING THIS: Certain people, they know who they are, feel free to not respond to me. None of my post is in response their post.

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Old January 22, 2020, 09:40 PM   #61
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Whenever you go into a dangerous area, you have to do what you can to maximize your chances of survival. Anything less is negligent.
Every time you go out in public...
Do you wear full IV body armor?
Do you carry a fully trauma kit, Lifepak, T&C/M blood?
Do you carry at minmum an infantry level loadout?
Do you carry IR lighting/aiming/vision/thermal imaging gear?
Do you carry sidearm and long gun able to defeat IV body armor?
Do you carry enough supplies on your person to save yourself and at least two others?

Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles
Often at night or inside dark buildings or spaces
Often close friends, family, coworkers are the victims of these attacks

If you are not maximizing your chances of survival by taking the above basic steps...
Then using your own "logic" YOU are being negligent
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Old January 22, 2020, 10:51 PM   #62
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In hindsight, the most fishy part about this story lies in the fact that he somehow managed to get a total of 8 shots off on the bear.

I seriously doubt that said bear was changing if he managed to shoot it eight times, or at least it wasn't charging until he had already begun shooting it. Bears are way too fast a full charge to provide adequate time to get off 8 shots.

Also, if it took that many shots to drop the bear, then who cares? I'm pretty sure that most folks want to pack something that can drop a bear in as few shots as possible, so if anyone honestly starts carrying 9mm for Bear Defense based on this particular incident, then that's on them for thinking that a souped up 9mm by Buffalo Bore that took 8 shots to stop a bear is adequate for Bear Defense.
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Old January 23, 2020, 12:34 AM   #63
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I seriously doubt that said bear was changing if he managed to shoot it eight times, or at least it wasn't charging until he had already begun shooting it. Bears are way too fast a full charge to provide adequate time to get off 8 shots.
I'll agree with that, but there is "charge" and then there is charge. Bears like many other mammals will sometimes advance rapidly, sometimes pause making threat display and advance again well below the speed of a full out "charge". Often even aggressive animals with predator instinct won't go into a full out charge /pounce if the "prey" isn't running away.

Most people (myself included) haven't acquired the skill to judge if its a full out charge or just a fast attack, or a bluff. When its a scary beast with big nasty teeth and claws or a couple tons crushing mass we tend to take the prudent course and assume the worst and act on it. And sometimes the people who have been through it enough to have the skill to make a sound judgement, sometimes, they're wrong.

Consider this, something I did back before my misspent youth took its toll.

9 shots .357 Magnum, 4.37 seconds, 7 bowling pins cleared off the table.
Aimed shots and two were at the base of a fallen pin facing me.

A personal best for me, and, I didn't even place 3rd that day.

Other people are faster than I was, and of course a rapidly approaching bear adds a degree of inspiration... 8 shots 9mm at a bear beginning at what distance? and was the bear at full speed or just fast enough to make it vital to shoot?? I don't know.

Difficult, sure, impossible? clearly not for that fellow that day.


Quote:
Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles
I'm not disputing this but I wonder just how "often" it is high power rifles. Last time I saw FBI data (admittedly some time) all rifles totaled up to about 3% of shootings and that included everything classed as a rifle regardless of caliber, so actual "high power" rifles would be an even smaller number.
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Old January 23, 2020, 01:18 AM   #64
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I think an overriding sentiment here, albeit not necessarily a conscious one, is that 9mm against bear leaves members feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion.

As such we expect others including the guide to feel the same and can’t understand when they don’t.
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Old January 23, 2020, 03:19 AM   #65
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"tease"

My opening statement regards "starting another bear thread" was because we have seen so many and they usually run the same way and cover the same ground. I continued with the post because it was news to me,and I believed that it had happened somewhat recently, and that others would be interested in the use of the 9mm handgun and the load used. I didn't post where to find it, do not know how to post links, and I figured anybody so interested could look it up for themselves.

I didn't intend to "tease" anybody, and wrote in the same style I generally always do, or at least I thought so, and has always been acceptable. Now I have apparently offended a moderator. My apologies to anybody else I have teased or offended. In my further defense, given the number of follow on posts , some others have found it a bit comment worthy.
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Old January 23, 2020, 05:34 AM   #66
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Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bel...#axzz6BqdmdCL5

That is it! I am carrying a single shot 22!
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Old January 23, 2020, 07:55 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I'm not disputing this but I wonder just how "often" it is high power rifles. Last time I saw FBI data (admittedly some time) all rifles totaled up to about 3% of shootings and that included everything classed as a rifle regardless of caliber, so actual "high power" rifles would be an even smaller number.
It was sarcasm, hence the quotes around high power.
Leftists deem pretty much any long gun as "high power".
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Old January 23, 2020, 08:04 AM   #68
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I think an overriding sentiment here, albeit not necessarily a conscious one, is that 9mm against bear leaves members feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion.

As such we expect others including the guide to feel the same and can’t understand when they don’t.
Quite correct, emotion over rational thought, logic, history, and first hand experience.
Which is what allows manufacturers to charge $2-3 per round of boutique 9mm in a fancy plastic box.
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Old January 23, 2020, 08:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Every time you go out in public...
Do you wear full IV body armor?
Do you carry a fully trauma kit, Lifepak, T&C/M blood?
Do you carry at minmum an infantry level loadout?
Do you carry IR lighting/aiming/vision/thermal imaging gear?
Do you carry sidearm and long gun able to defeat IV body armor?
Do you carry enough supplies on your person to save yourself and at least two others?

Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles
Often at night or inside dark buildings or spaces
Often close friends, family, coworkers are the victims of these attacks

If you are not maximizing your chances of survival by taking the above basic steps...
Then using your own "logic" YOU are being negligent
I'll try to break this down.

I'll start with just the very basics of the basic that would help you maximize survival, despite him actually accomplishing that task with a 9mm. I still haven't lost sight of him actually getting the job done. Biggest threat near a river in AK=big brown bear... even though you could encounter other threats than a brown bear. I've been charged by moose several times, and only gripped my 357 one time and still didn't need to shoot it. I have spent a lot of time out west and up in AK so I speak from experience. My first sight of a grizzly, close proximity, I had a sad realization that I felt underpowered with a 44 and all it was doing was walking by. So when I say maximize your chances of survival, I'm referring to the thing you might need the most and that is a big bore revolver, various desert eagle semis, 10mm at the very minimum and I'll even say if this guy had a 10mm, I would not even have commented... not that 10mm will guarantee victory every time. I have cases of the rounds he used, I'm just never going to use them for what he used them for.

I did not recommend running a drone and scanning the woods and brush below, something you left off your list, something I actually do where I live because I live deep in the backwoods and have a lot of time on my hands.

I don't use a chemical sniffer and sample the trail every yard either.

I'm not saying you should not accept any risk whatsoever. When 44amp stated that the couple may be putting themselves at risk, that is true too and I did not dispute that. In fact everything he stated is true, I just believe even though things turned out ok, he still put lives at risk. I will back off about how skill had nothing to do with it... it did. I'll concede that.

The rest of your list I have used before... not here in the states though. Have you? And don't compare LE to us or any agency stateside. I even added a small strong spatula to our list. Helps you separate melted skin from the inside of a vehicle so you can evac casualties quicker and more efficient than using the bottom of a magazine like a chisel.

Anyway, in the spirit of not getting another thread closed. My argument was mainly about the choice of firearm. Most people get that. I'm not surprised in the least by your questions and I'm trying to be polite here. But if you don't mind, why don't you answer some of the questions I posed in my post you just had to reply to.

And look at the pic... those are my dogs. I do travel with that

I'll repost a paragraph.
I asked some questions in my other post. Who here would be comfortable knowing their friends or family were headed off to coastal brown bear territory with a guide that just has a 9mm? Let's say you have some life long friends that don't know anything about guns and they're checking in with you before they head out and you ask them a few questions about this guide and what he's carrying. How about if they are your family? Do you just say, "good luck Dad, I hope this guide knows what he's doing?"
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Old January 23, 2020, 08:31 AM   #70
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Did you answer any of preparedness my questions, or are you being "negligent'?
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Old January 23, 2020, 09:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
I'll agree with that, but there is "charge" and then there is charge. Bears like many other mammals will sometimes advance rapidly, sometimes pause making threat display and advance again well below the speed of a full out "charge". Often even aggressive animals with predator instinct won't go into a full out charge /pounce if the "prey" isn't running away.

Most people (myself included) haven't acquired the skill to judge if its a full out charge or just a fast attack, or a bluff. When its a scary beast with big nasty teeth and claws or a couple tons crushing mass we tend to take the prudent course and assume the worst and act on it. And sometimes the people who have been through it enough to have the skill to make a sound judgement, sometimes, they're wrong.
I had presumed that a guide by profession would know the difference between a mock charge and a full charge, but then again, maybe he was more self-aware of his choice in that moment than anybody is giving him credit for and he just didn't want to chance it while armed only with 9mm.

Quote:
Consider this, something I did back before my misspent youth took its toll.

9 shots .357 Magnum, 4.37 seconds, 7 bowling pins cleared off the table.
Aimed shots and two were at the base of a fallen pin facing me.

A personal best for me, and, I didn't even place 3rd that day.

Other people are faster than I was, and of course a rapidly approaching bear adds a degree of inspiration... 8 shots 9mm at a bear beginning at what distance? and was the bear at full speed or just fast enough to make it vital to shoot?? I don't know.

Difficult, sure, impossible? clearly not for that fellow that day.
Granted, but those bowling pins were stationary targets, not a high-speed moving target such as the bear was. If the bear were at the same distance as those bowling pins and advancing towards you, how much time do you estimate that you would have had before it reached you?
Furthermore, we can't be sure how proficient Shoemaker was with the firearm/load he was carrying, but I'm going to presume that he didn't put anywhere near as much of that expensive Buffalo Bore ammo downrange prior to his encounter with the bear, as you had before you set your personal best record speed-shooting at those bowling pins.
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Old January 23, 2020, 01:55 PM   #72
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Furthermore, we can't be sure how proficient Shoemaker was with the firearm/load he was carrying
Given the DRT state of the bear...
Given that he and his clients came out unscathed...
Given his experience and long history of guiding the area...
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he was proficient.
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Old January 23, 2020, 02:14 PM   #73
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If the bear were at the same distance as those bowling pins and advancing towards you, how much time do you estimate that you would have had before it reached you?
Memory says my 30 year old ego would say time enough for every damned one! and my 60+year old reality says time for maybe 3 shots, maybe..probably less. Additional background (not that it matters) is that the pin shoots were held 3-4 times during the summer always on a Sunday after I had worked the graveyard shift, and I NEVER practiced pin shooting or any kind of speed shooting at the time. I did it for fun, and didn't have any kind of "pin gun" or race gun (as many did) I was shooting MY guns and in the case of the .357 Mag, it was a Desert Eagle.

I mentioned it because the "kill zone" on a bowling pin is a small target, and while nothing like a fast moving bear it was an example of me being able to hit small targets, requiring good aim for each, at speed, with a powerful handgun.

Not trying to imply I could do the same on a charging bear, only an example of a personal example of a number of fast accurate shots, so I know the kind of difficulty involved, to a degree.

8 shots, and, unless someone here is kind enough to provide the specific details, (and an autopsy report) we don't know the distance he started at, ended at, or how fast the bear was actually moving, and we don't know if more than one of those shots was a fatal wound or not. Clearly at least one was, the bear died, but which one(s)? Was his first round fatal and he managed to pump 7 more into the bear before it went down? Shot #3? Shots 2,4,5,and 7? we don't know. Perhaps it was only his last shot? we don't know, and can't know with the info we have.

I agree, going out in dangerous bear country with "only" a 9mm sounds like a barking STUPID idea. No matter what loads you have in it.

Quote:
I had presumed that a guide by profession would know the difference between a mock charge and a full charge,...
I too would expect that, from a PH on safari (and I would consider that skill one of the things I am paying big bucks for!).

An Alaskan fishing guide? Good if he can, not sure I'd expect he could as a given. And there is always the complicating factor that sometimes the animals themselves don't know the difference and a mock charge might turn real on the beast's second step, or a real one stop "short" just because something changed the beasts mind.
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Old January 23, 2020, 02:42 PM   #74
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Given the DRT state of the bear...
After a whole eight shots. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding here, but it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.

Quote:
Given that he and his clients came out unscathed...
There are too many variables at play here for that to be owed solely to his proficiency with the firearm.

Quote:
Given his experience and long history of guiding the area...
What does that have to do with his proficiency with the 9mm BB load? It was his first time ever taking it out on the field with him, ergo his experience is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he was proficient.
Well, you got that much correct, at least.
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Old January 23, 2020, 09:51 PM   #75
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it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.
My understanding is Dead Right There but the # of shots is variable. USUALLY its used when only one shot is fired, but its not limited. DRT essentially means "did not run off"
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