Why Not a Blue Gun?

[johnwilliamson062]

Having been in about 7 or 8 exercises with real revolvers and sim type rounds - I survived.

What experience level were the participants at? Not just those in charge of training, but students? My impression is the students in this event were not familiar with firearms. It seems to me, due to her ignorance of the subject, she was blindly trusting the government official placed in authority. This does not seem to be a case of 'we have pushed blue guns and solid plastic barrels as far as we can, so it is time to take it to the next level.' This seems more like 'I'm the only one in the room professional enough to...'

They weren't training. They were putting on a show.

I've never done training with real firearms where someone pulls the trigger pointed at someone else. I wouldn't categorically rule it out in some situations, but it would certainly involve everyone present clearing the gun independently and only people who were knowledgeable enough to know they SHOULD do so and knew how to. Not people who may have never handled a gun before.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I mentioned before that the exercises were with well trained folks with lots of checking and precautions.

My comments were aimed at the absolutist statements that included not even pointing blue guns at people.

Of course, this incident was a failure of that organization.

[Targa]

Now some folks weren't even ok with blue guns, airsoft or sims. That IMHO is too extreme as then no training that is useful can occur.

Agreed, that is way over the top. Training needs to be accomplished and using your gun as a finger as you yell bang doesn't cut it. But man, those sim rounds can really wake you up when you get smacked by one..lol.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Honestly you can really tell who hasn't served in the military or done realistic training by reading this thread. Every force on force training I ever did for 24 years in the service involved pointing real assault weapons at people. Some of these involved civilian role players.

The majority of the time it was blanks, a number of time sim rounds. I never once felt unsafe. Never once was there a training accident involving live ammunition anywhere I was stationed or even heard about where live ammo was not supposed to be in use.

As a police officer our department does this type training about once a year, excluding the two weeks spent at the academy doing it. I have never heard of such an accident until this one.

[1-DAB]

what are people, including elderly ladies, expected to learn by having a gun pointed at them?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Um, how to respond when it's a REAL gun?!

Disarming tactics, for one thing.

Plus, there's a real adrenaline rush when there's actual consequences like a painful airsoft pellets or paintballs.

Not to mention, the Internet Commando (and the non-Commando alike) will quite quickly realize what does and does NOT work under realistic circumstances.

Besides, it's not a gun if it's a Blue Gun or a Simunition or an Airsoft. Only guns are guns. The lessons are the same though, except safe.

[1-DAB]

a 73 year old lady is not a good student for such a lesson as that.

i'm not convinced, but i'm in the minority, so carry on. keep pointing guns at each other, and maybe no one will get hurt.

me? if i have a gun pointed at me, i'm pointing mine at them and likely pulling the trigger. i'm too old to wrestle, too slow to run away from someone younger and faster.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 1-DAB

keep pointing guns at each other, and maybe no one will get hurt.

You keep saying that over and over like you can make it true if you say it enough.

Blue guns, airsoft and simunition modified guns ARE NOT GUNS.

Only real guns are guns.

What age is someone too old to learn? Why can't the elderly be trained?

[Snyper]

what are people, including elderly ladies, expected to learn by having a gun pointed at them?

They were attempting to illustrate how suddenly things can change on the streets with police encounters.

They seemed to have accomplished that, albeit not in the manner they intended

[1-DAB]

don't yell at me, i didn't point a gun at anyone. go yell at the officer who killed the lady. yell at his boss. and his boss's boss.

someone taught him that what he intended to do was ok. wasn't me.

at my last concealed carry class refresher, the instructor at one point pulled out his blue gun, and all during his handling of it, he made it a point that it was never pointed at the class. it was always pointed down range (classroom adjacent to the indoor range), in what he considered a safe direction.

if you want to learn how to engage in hand to hand combat, knock yourself out. i contend that a 73 year old lady was not a good student for such a lesson. if anything, she should have been taught how to draw and shoot safely and accurately. but Barney denied that chance to her.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Yeah.... see, the blue gun was used to DEMONSTRATE safe gun handling techniques without using a REAL GUN.

Let me ask you this....

If I get a 2x4 board, cut out the shape of a Glock and name it "Brown Gun", are you going to tell me it's not safe to point it at people?

If I get a ketchup bottle and name it "Red Gun", are you going to tell me it's not safe to point it at people?

You do realize that a "Blue Gun" is literally a piece of plastic, right? It's not a gun. At all. In any way.

[K_Mac]

if you want to learn how to engage in hand to hand combat, knock yourself out. i contend that a 73 year old lady was not a good student for such a lesson. if anything, she should have been taught how to draw and shoot safely and accurately. but Barney denied that chance to her.

While I agree that an untrained 73 year old woman probably isn't a candidate for an advanced level martial arts course, she would almost certainly benefit from some basic hand to hand and gun retention training. In spite of your protests, this is usually done with a blue plastic gun. In a perfect world, drawing fast and shooting accurately would always end the fight before physical contact. In reality physical contact with the attacker is not uncommon. Having a little training with a blue plastic gun might be the difference in living or dieing.

This was a tragic incident that should not have happened. The problem was not the training being given though. There were several safety steps and checks that did not happen here. There really is no legitimate excuse for that.

[johnwilliamson062]

The majority of the time it was blanks, a number of time sim rounds.

When using blanks was there a blank adapter in the barrel? A blank adapter will pretty much stop a live round, although other bad things happen.
When using simunition was it with a conversion kit? I am not aware of any simunition that uses the normal barrel.
If so, not exactly the same thing as an unmodified duty weapon.

[Lohman446]

My objection is strictly to a fully functional firearm capable of chambering and firing live ammunition in a training scenario. Disable that firearm and my objection diminishes quickly. I have no objection to visibly disabled firearms

[Old Bill Dibble]

When using blanks was there a blank adapter in the barrel? A blank adapter will pretty much stop a live round, although other bad things happen.

Not a chance. You shoot a live round at someone with a BFA on and they are extremely likely to die. Yes the bullet will likely fragment but it will not stop and it will still hit a target out to at least 50 meters that I know of. After the first round the BFA is gone. It is designed to fly off in one round without damaging the weapon. Any follow up shots are completely unhindered. It is no way, shape or form a safety device for live ammo.

I had the misfortune to observe a FN officer who showed up to a range with a BFA on his weapon. The BFA launched a good 25 feet and the 50 meter target still went down.

[Deaf Smith]

How did it happen?

I suspect the cop had simulation ammo in it earlier then they broke for lunch and he reloaded with live ammo, racking one in the chamber in the process. Then after lunch he just swapped mags and did not check the chamber.

Yes, forgot to check the chamber for live ammo.

Least that's my guess.

Nope... my mistake! He uses a 5 shot snub S&W .38. I guess he somehow mistook .38s for simulations or blanks... Or just never checked to see what was in the gun (was it his? Was it given to him loaded? Makes one think maybe someone did it on purpose.. strange accident.) Who loaded the gun?


Deaf

[Ton]

Who loaded the gun?

That's the real bottom line question, and is the reason I check the condition of every firearm I handle, even if I just put it down 30 seconds earlier. More than once I have discovered a gun was loaded and chambered when I didn't think it was, and vice versa. Two of the worst things that can happen to someone are a click when you need a bang and a bang when you expected a click.

This was a lethal failure of common sense.

[johnwilliamson062]

Marine fire burst of frangible rounds through blank adapter
I generally agree that a BFA is not designed as a safety device. I don't agree it is unlikely to stop a bullet. I used the singular indefinite article in what I wrote. A blank adapter is likely to stop a single bullet. I would agree something is likely to be sent forward and/or out the side through the flash protector at high enough velocity to be dangerous. Probably not as dangerous or for the same distance as an unimpeded bullet. In most cases it will not be the bullet, especially going forward. My understanding of this reality is why I linked to an article describing an event in which someone was very nearly killed in US military training when a single round was fired with a blank adapter installed and a piece of the blank adapter was sent forward at high enough velocity to cut his femoral artery.

That is for US milspec adapters. My understanding is some people are playing organized "wargames" with blank adapters that ARE designed to stop a live round and disable the weapon if one is fired. I haven't looked into it as I have no interet, but I would guess they are designed to induce a severe barrel blockage.

The adapter also give a clear reminder to the weapon operator that they are not supposed to load live rounds in the gun. It should diminish the chance you have something like a person goes to lunch, loads live ammo, forgets to switch back and has an incident. You don't load live ammo without taking the BFA off and you are much less likely to forget you didn't switch when the BFA is not present.

Simunition has its own set of issues
http://www.policemag.com/channel/car...accidents.aspx
I don't think this is the only case where simunition guns were confused with live unmodified firearms. There is a definite negative to using visually identical training aids that also feel the same.

Never once was there a training accident involving live ammunition anywhere I was stationed or even heard about where live ammo was not supposed to be in use.

There clearly have been multiple instances as I've linked three occurrences. I still don't think it is the same level of danger as using a live unmodified firearm.
The military doesn't use BFAs because they are the safest system. They use BFAs because they were/are the cheapest system.

[Snyper]

How did it happen?

I suspect the cop had simulation ammo in it earlier then they broke for lunch and he reloaded with live ammo, racking one in the chamber in the process. Then after lunch he just swapped mags and did not check the chamber.

I highly doubt he racked one into the chamber of that J-Frame revolver.
People should read about events they intend to discuss.

[Deaf Smith]

I highly doubt he racked one into the chamber of that J-Frame revolver.
People should read about events they intend to discuss.

You are right... so go back and read post 66... all of it.

Deaf

[Old Bill Dibble]

Who loaded the gun?

That is the $3 million dollar question. Followed by whose gun was it?

Whoever loaded it knew that those were live rounds. A .38 is almost never a standard issue firearm anymore and mostly just used for training these days. We keep several for scenario training as well. We don't even have live ammo for them.

[Dusty Rivers]

Familiarity breeds contempt, and lack of focus. Someone had their head up their a-s. First and last thing you SHOULD/MUST do is check your firearm. Especially if someone hands it to you! There is a reason why pilots have written check lists instead of just remembering to do stuff. Where the heck was the safety officer! Numerous system failures here by at least 2 people unless the safety officer was the shooter.

Makes you real concerned going to gun shows and shooting ranges.

If someone is going to pretend shoot at me, I am going to be checking their firearm ammo each and every time! Very disturbing.

[Sharkbite]

He uses a 5 shot snub S&W .38. I guess he somehow mistook .38s for simulations

Unlike semi-auto simunition kits that swap barrels for ones that will not chamber live ammo, the 38spl simunition kits use chamber inserts to prevent live ammo from being chambered.

Without those inserts put into the gun, it will still chamber live ammo as well as the simunition rounds.

My guess is somebody decided to not insert the chamber inserts because they are inconvenient and dont add to the mechanical function of the sim rounds.

A horrible tragedy, to be sure. As someone that not only participates in FoF training but hosts classes where it is employed. I firmly believe it is necessary at certain levels to employ that type of training.

You cannot train to be a race driver without driving fast. You cannot train to be a gunfighter without shooting people. Obviously, that cant be done live fire..so Simunition allows that level of training

Is it needed for all training?...No.
Is it needed at some levels?..Yes