Dog Attack--baton or spray, or both

Flashman · April 6, 1999, 09:36 PM

Last week when on a walk with my family (2 seven year old boys, wife and 20 lb. dog) we came upon a middle aged woman with a Rottweiler and 60 lb. mixed breed running loose. The Rotti immediately ran towards my Border Terrier and wife. The BT feeling threatened, lunged at the Rotti's mouth turning him away. The other dog then attacked the BT. My wife who has no fear of dogs, kicked the mixed breed off and picked up the BT putting him on her shoulder. The Rotti then started jumping up to the BT. My wife was screaming at the lady to control her dogs. She did nothing. Then the Rotti discovered me and my sons. He ran towards the boy on my left and I kicked and yelled at him. He ran around to try to get at other son. Both boys were behind me on left and right up against me. I again dissuaded the Rotti. The woman was walking away at that point. I screamed again at her to control her dogs. She looked shocked but just turned around and walked away saying nothing. It happened so quickly and without time to think, just act. Upon reflection it bothers me more than it did then. All I had with me was a tactical type folder which was of no use. I was thinking a baton might have been the best tool or perhaps a spray. Any suggestions? I will say a handgun would have been too dangerous. Too many people too close and at the wrong angles. I wonder about a spray in those conditions. I think a couple hits from a baton on the Rotti's muzzle would have changed things. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

Coinneach · April 6, 1999, 10:25 PM

Don't go for the muzzle... hit the dog square in the middle of the back, just like a COM shot on a human.

Dog owners like that woman are as bad as happy-blasters at the range; they're a direct threat to others. If she can't (or, in this case, won't) control her dogs, she shouldn't own them. I'd suggest alerting the SPCA.

------------------
"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(The sword does not kill; it is a tool in the hands of the killer.)
--Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD)

buzz riley · April 6, 1999, 11:17 PM

Pepper spray will work on dogs, but it takes a big dose on a determined one. The original version was made for the Postal Service (HALT) to be used against K-9 attack. Get a really hot one,2 million SHU's is good. I'd try to get a 2oz. can at least. Use OC only, normal tear gas won't work. Aim for nose.
Good luck

**Rich Lucibella** · April 7, 1999, 12:08 AM

Next time use the baton on the lady and take the dogs home....find them good families. They don't sound nearly as (passive)-aggressive as she and might be salvaged.
Rich

SGTC · April 7, 1999, 05:08 PM

If you frequently go out for walks like this I recommend getting a stout cane/walking stick. There are many sources available; Cold Steel, Cane Masters, Etc. Or if you are remotely handy in the wood shop buy a $7.00 stockman's cane from a farm supply store (local or mail order) and customize it to your specs. I have what started out as a 1 1/8" diameter hickory cane that now has a tear drop cross section and a huge wicked hook. And the best part is I didn't have to pay $39.95 for it like you will at some places.
Along with being a great dog deterrent that is already in your hand, inconspicuous (I'm 23 and in good health, and no one ever questions my cane), has better reach than any baton, and provides a visual deterrent to predatory humans as well.
If you have any questions on how to make one, e-mail me and I'll send you diagrams and directions.

mckeea · April 14, 1999, 11:01 AM

The most appropriate way to handle the situation would have been to:

1) spray the lady with a good dose of the OC.
2) After she is blinded beat her with the baton.

Dog owners like her really piss me off.

Kodiac · April 17, 1999, 12:21 PM

I would have just shot the dog dead.
Rotts and Pits are life threatening - I would have killed the dog and sued the owner.

------------------
"There is no Spoon"

fubsy · April 17, 1999, 08:36 PM

am I finally getting through???
My third attempt....dosent say much for does it.
I own and walk apbt's daily and have experience from the so called ''bad dog'' end of things.....but in this case there seems to be recourse against that owner....ive a friend who has a doberman and experiences the same problem with other large dogs were he walks his.....back then i recommeded to him that he purchase an asp...in this area if you attend a course they will allow you to carry one(at least thats what im told, ive never had a problem carrying one with out the course)., My friend has had to use the asp on occasion or two and has struck the dogs squarley on the top of the shoulders, now hes a big strong fella so i imagine they feel it to there toes...I hesitate to use a spray outside because of the obvious problem that a slight wind could cause to you or those with you...there is another alternative that could be use....awhile back there was a device slightly larger than most tv remotes that had an electrodes that would arc a spark of electricty accross,,,this might be something you could use. Although I dont know what damage if any it could do to the dogs and dont know if Id concern myself with it other than the fact that people are sued over the dumbest things....fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited April 17, 1999).]

Ankeny · May 1, 1999, 09:47 PM

Buzz Riley is right. I have used OC at 3 (yes three) million SHU on dogs and it has been 100 per cent effective. The little containers with a narrow stream or foam are for wimps. I use the 15 ounce magnum unit from UDAP (www.udap.com). The unit shoots a shotgun fog pattern about thirty feet. The blast alone will scare the hell out of any dog and the pepper will stop them dead. BTW, this unit was manufactured as a grizzly bear deterrent and has a great track record on bears as well.

Spectre · May 4, 1999, 03:49 PM

I believe an well-applied ASP would have been my tool of choice, here. I would have called LEO upon reaching the house, if I were not carrying a cellular unit. I believe I would aim for the nose or just behind and above the eyes. Since I don't believe in applying techniques that depend on causing pain to save my life/other's lives, I would aim for behind the eyes.

Jffal · May 5, 1999, 04:38 PM

Co-worker of mine and his wife were taking their nightly sprint around the neighborhood in the heart of darkness of New Jersey. A teen let go the leash of his growling medium sized pooch and it sprang from the yard and toward my pal. He wipped out his new 3 D cell Mag Lite. He also had a petite cannister of pepperspray. Fortunately, the dog stopped short of biting anybody and was retrieved by the smirking teen. Guy's wife had once been chewed on by a canine and told the kid that she would have owned his house if the dog drew blood. My friend felt that his flashlight was too short for fending off dogs. Because of restrictive New Jersey laws, he cannot carry his .45 semiauto.
Jeff

Jffal · May 8, 1999, 10:24 AM

Checked out the UDAP site Ankeny mentioned as well as comments about these sprays on the usenet and Internet itself. If the products actually live up to the hype, you have yourself one mean family of OC shooters.

There is a paperback book about pepper sprays available. It warns that 3 million SHU OC can actually burn and injure the target it hits, hence one reason 2 million or less SHU sprays are more popular. Though "determined minded" individuals or certain folk under the influence of whatever have bulled their way through pepper spray blasts, a 3 million SHU kiss to the mug might slow even them down.

A fifteen ounce rapidly accessed cannister of 3 million SHU OC with a range of 30 feet on a windless day would go a far way toward buying the sprayer enough time to retreat from even an armed attack. UDAP creator Mark Matheny designed his sprays to be discharged from their holsters and sheaths.
Jeff

[This message has been edited by Jffal (edited May 08, 1999).]

General · May 9, 1999, 07:39 PM

Use OC on the dog. It may not burn the dog but the spray alone tends to turn dogs away. Also call the local animal control. It is owners like that who have given Rotts and Pits bad names. Dogs are not inherently aggressive they are taught that.

April 6, 1999, 09:36 PM	#1
Flashman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 1999 Posts: 137	Last week when on a walk with my family (2 seven year old boys, wife and 20 lb. dog) we came upon a middle aged woman with a Rottweiler and 60 lb. mixed breed running loose. The Rotti immediately ran towards my Border Terrier and wife. The BT feeling threatened, lunged at the Rotti's mouth turning him away. The other dog then attacked the BT. My wife who has no fear of dogs, kicked the mixed breed off and picked up the BT putting him on her shoulder. The Rotti then started jumping up to the BT. My wife was screaming at the lady to control her dogs. She did nothing. Then the Rotti discovered me and my sons. He ran towards the boy on my left and I kicked and yelled at him. He ran around to try to get at other son. Both boys were behind me on left and right up against me. I again dissuaded the Rotti. The woman was walking away at that point. I screamed again at her to control her dogs. She looked shocked but just turned around and walked away saying nothing. It happened so quickly and without time to think, just act. Upon reflection it bothers me more than it did then. All I had with me was a tactical type folder which was of no use. I was thinking a baton might have been the best tool or perhaps a spray. Any suggestions? I will say a handgun would have been too dangerous. Too many people too close and at the wrong angles. I wonder about a spray in those conditions. I think a couple hits from a baton on the Rotti's muzzle would have changed things. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

April 6, 1999, 10:25 PM	#2
Coinneach Staff Alumnus Join Date: February 23, 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,272	Don't go for the muzzle... hit the dog square in the middle of the back, just like a COM shot on a human. Dog owners like that woman are as bad as happy-blasters at the range; they're a direct threat to others. If she can't (or, in this case, won't) control her dogs, she shouldn't own them. I'd suggest alerting the SPCA. ------------------ "Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." (The sword does not kill; it is a tool in the hands of the killer.) --Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD)

April 6, 1999, 11:17 PM	#3
buzz riley Member Join Date: January 27, 1999 Location: KY Posts: 47	Pepper spray will work on dogs, but it takes a big dose on a determined one. The original version was made for the Postal Service (HALT) to be used against K-9 attack. Get a really hot one,2 million SHU's is good. I'd try to get a 2oz. can at least. Use OC only, normal tear gas won't work. Aim for nose. Good luck

April 7, 1999, 12:08 AM	#4
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Next time use the baton on the lady and take the dogs home....find them good families. They don't sound nearly as (passive)-aggressive as she and might be salvaged. Rich

April 7, 1999, 05:08 PM	#5
SGTC Junior Member Join Date: March 13, 1999 Location: Beaufort, SC, USA Posts: 5	If you frequently go out for walks like this I recommend getting a stout cane/walking stick. There are many sources available; Cold Steel, Cane Masters, Etc. Or if you are remotely handy in the wood shop buy a $7.00 stockman's cane from a farm supply store (local or mail order) and customize it to your specs. I have what started out as a 1 1/8" diameter hickory cane that now has a tear drop cross section and a huge wicked hook. And the best part is I didn't have to pay $39.95 for it like you will at some places. Along with being a great dog deterrent that is already in your hand, inconspicuous (I'm 23 and in good health, and no one ever questions my cane), has better reach than any baton, and provides a visual deterrent to predatory humans as well. If you have any questions on how to make one, e-mail me and I'll send you diagrams and directions.

April 14, 1999, 11:01 AM	#6
mckeea Member Join Date: December 10, 1998 Location: Phila, PA USA Posts: 23	The most appropriate way to handle the situation would have been to: 1) spray the lady with a good dose of the OC. 2) After she is blinded beat her with the baton. Dog owners like her really piss me off.

April 17, 1999, 12:21 PM	#7
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	I would have just shot the dog dead. Rotts and Pits are life threatening - I would have killed the dog and sued the owner. ------------------ "There is no Spoon"

April 17, 1999, 08:36 PM	#8
fubsy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Posts: 1,363	am I finally getting through??? My third attempt....dosent say much for does it. I own and walk apbt's daily and have experience from the so called ''bad dog'' end of things.....but in this case there seems to be recourse against that owner....ive a friend who has a doberman and experiences the same problem with other large dogs were he walks his.....back then i recommeded to him that he purchase an asp...in this area if you attend a course they will allow you to carry one(at least thats what im told, ive never had a problem carrying one with out the course)., My friend has had to use the asp on occasion or two and has struck the dogs squarley on the top of the shoulders, now hes a big strong fella so i imagine they feel it to there toes...I hesitate to use a spray outside because of the obvious problem that a slight wind could cause to you or those with you...there is another alternative that could be use....awhile back there was a device slightly larger than most tv remotes that had an electrodes that would arc a spark of electricty accross,,,this might be something you could use. Although I dont know what damage if any it could do to the dogs and dont know if Id concern myself with it other than the fact that people are sued over the dumbest things....fubsy. [This message has been edited by fubsy (edited April 17, 1999).]

May 1, 1999, 09:47 PM	#9
Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 1998 Location: Shoshoni, WY USA Posts: 556	Buzz Riley is right. I have used OC at 3 (yes three) million SHU on dogs and it has been 100 per cent effective. The little containers with a narrow stream or foam are for wimps. I use the 15 ounce magnum unit from UDAP (www.udap.com). The unit shoots a shotgun fog pattern about thirty feet. The blast alone will scare the hell out of any dog and the pepper will stop them dead. BTW, this unit was manufactured as a grizzly bear deterrent and has a great track record on bears as well.

May 4, 1999, 03:49 PM	#10
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I believe an well-applied ASP would have been my tool of choice, here. I would have called LEO upon reaching the house, if I were not carrying a cellular unit. I believe I would aim for the nose or just behind and above the eyes. Since I don't believe in applying techniques that depend on causing pain to save my life/other's lives, I would aim for behind the eyes.

May 5, 1999, 04:38 PM	#11
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 364	Co-worker of mine and his wife were taking their nightly sprint around the neighborhood in the heart of darkness of New Jersey. A teen let go the leash of his growling medium sized pooch and it sprang from the yard and toward my pal. He wipped out his new 3 D cell Mag Lite. He also had a petite cannister of pepperspray. Fortunately, the dog stopped short of biting anybody and was retrieved by the smirking teen. Guy's wife had once been chewed on by a canine and told the kid that she would have owned his house if the dog drew blood. My friend felt that his flashlight was too short for fending off dogs. Because of restrictive New Jersey laws, he cannot carry his .45 semiauto. Jeff

May 8, 1999, 10:24 AM	#12
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 364	Checked out the UDAP site Ankeny mentioned as well as comments about these sprays on the usenet and Internet itself. If the products actually live up to the hype, you have yourself one mean family of OC shooters. There is a paperback book about pepper sprays available. It warns that 3 million SHU OC can actually burn and injure the target it hits, hence one reason 2 million or less SHU sprays are more popular. Though "determined minded" individuals or certain folk under the influence of whatever have bulled their way through pepper spray blasts, a 3 million SHU kiss to the mug might slow even them down. A fifteen ounce rapidly accessed cannister of 3 million SHU OC with a range of 30 feet on a windless day would go a far way toward buying the sprayer enough time to retreat from even an armed attack. UDAP creator Mark Matheny designed his sprays to be discharged from their holsters and sheaths. Jeff [This message has been edited by Jffal (edited May 08, 1999).]

May 9, 1999, 07:39 PM	#13
General Member Join Date: April 24, 1999 Location: Hampton Roads, VA Posts: 17	Use OC on the dog. It may not burn the dog but the spray alone tends to turn dogs away. Also call the local animal control. It is owners like that who have given Rotts and Pits bad names. Dogs are not inherently aggressive they are taught that.