How do you carry DA/SA - Page 2

Nathan · November 22, 2018, 08:22 PM

Cocked and locked. That first shot will most likely be the gamechanger. I want it SA.

As for the no safety crowd....ask yourself how you are going to train yourself up to this super high level af skill, but cannot manipulate the safety before you are ready to pull the trigger...

n4aof · November 22, 2018, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigarms228

Almost all striker fired pistols have a trigger safety that blocks the trigger from moving rearward which DA/SA pistols lack.

While I agree with you that carrying a DA/SA pistol in SA mode cocked and unlocked is just about the least safe way to carry, I would point out that almost all striker fired pistols are in fact single action without a manual safety and the trigger safety accomplishes very little (if anything) other than giving the false impression of a "safety"

How much good is a "safety" that prevents the trigger from moving unless something is pressing the trigger? How many triggers press themselves? Someone or something has to press the trigger and just about anything that presses a trigger is going to press that "trigger safety" as well. The sole safety advantage to these pistols is that they typically have a longer and somewhat heavier trigger pull than a traditional SA or DA/SA in SA mode.

There ain't no sech animal as a "safe action" or any of the other names invented by the marketing department of various manufacturers. A semiauto pistol is either SA, DA/SA or DAO (I suppose you could assign a fourth category to distinguish between those that are truely DAO and those that claim to be DAO but are some sort of hybrid DAO where the striker is partly cocked by the action then fully cocked by the trigger).

Bottom line, if a semiauto pistol has a second strike capability it is DA or DAO, if not it is SA regardless of what name the manufacturer wants to hang on it.

Wheelgun · November 22, 2018, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Cocked and locked. That first shot will most likely be the gamechanger. I want it SA.

As for the no safety crowd....ask yourself how you are going to train yourself up to this super high level af skill, but cannot manipulate the safety before you are ready to pull the trigger...

A good question, however it brings out the core difference between an SA, and a DA/SA pistol. "Cocked and Locked" is a single action mode. I carry my SA pistols "cocked and locked", and have no issue using the safety.

However, for me, it works to run a DA/SA pistol without the safety on (although it has been a while since I carried a DA/SA pistol). Just like the heavier trigger pull on a DA revolver, the first DA shot on a DA/SA pistol has a decent pull weight. As long as the trigger is covered in my carry configuration, I am good. The safety can be a nice addition though.

YMMV

sigarms228 · November 22, 2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4aof

While I agree with you that carrying a DA/SA pistol in SA mode cocked and unlocked is just about the least safe way to carry, I would point out that almost all striker fired pistols are in fact single action without a manual safety and the trigger safety accomplishes very little (if anything) other than giving the false impression of a "safety"

How much good is a "safety" that prevents the trigger from moving unless something is pressing the trigger? How many triggers press themselves? Someone or something has to press the trigger and just about anything that presses a trigger is going to press that "trigger safety" as well. The sole safety advantage to these pistols is that they typically have a longer and somewhat heavier trigger pull than a traditional SA or DA/SA in SA mode.

There ain't no sech animal as a "safe action" or any of the other names invented by the marketing department of various manufacturers. A semiauto pistol is either SA, DA/SA or DAO (I suppose you could assign a fourth category to distinguish between those that are truely DAO and those that claim to be DAO but are some sort of hybrid DAO where the striker is partly cocked by the action then fully cocked by the trigger).

Bottom line, if a semiauto pistol has a second strike capability it is DA or DAO, if not it is SA regardless of what name the manufacturer wants to hang on it.

I disagree that the trigger safety "accomplishes very little if anything."

The SIG P320 is a perfect example of that. The trigger safety is also a drop/severe impact safety and if the P320 had one SIG would have never had to due that massive notification to owners of a potential drop safety danger issue and do free of charge retrofit to tens of thousands of P320 pistols.

Also the trigger safety can potentially be an advantage in situations where there is a problem with a faulty holster or clothing and foreign objects in the holster as the trigger safety itself needs to be deactivated while on a trigger without a trigger safety any part of the trigger that comes into contact with holster of foreign objects could potentially cause an AD. With a faulty holster it could be very possible that the holster material would catch just the edge of the trigger and a trigger with a middle tab trigger safety very likely would not be affected by that.

Troy800 · November 22, 2018, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

Cocked and locked. That first shot will most likely be the gamechanger. I want it SA.

As for the no safety crowd....ask yourself how you are going to train yourself up to this super high level af skill, but cannot manipulate the safety before you are ready to pull the trigger...

Im not sure what your asking but I will try and convey my personal thought decision. Not claiming it to be right but it is what I have chosen.

I own 5 DA/SA and have been shooting that platform for 30 years. I have nothing against safeties I just choose to own and practice one platform. My EDC is DA/SA, I use DA/SA to shoot 3Gun, Steel Challenge, Bowling pin matchs, and several other local competition. I have no accuracy issues with DA and never feel my first shot with DA is a low accuracy shot.

My choice to carry DA/SA has nothing to do with a safety or ability to operate the safety, It is totally based on having a heavy pull trigger on a SD pistol during high stress, high adrenaline situations where you're fine motor skills are immediately impacted.

I do not have an issue with SA or safeties. Any platform can be safely operated with proper training and technics. With that said, if you put in the proper training you should not feel disadvantaged with any quality pistol regardless of the trigger.

Sharkbite · November 22, 2018, 11:33 PM

Quote:

the trigger safety accomplishes very little (if anything) other than giving the false impression of a "safety"

The “trigger safety” on the face of a Glock trigger and the hinged design on the M&Ps is designed to prevent the trigger from moving to the rear if the pistol is dropped and lands on the rear of the slide (muzzle straight up).

It was never designed to prevent the gun from firing if the trigger was pulled.

The other safeties internal to the gun prevent other inadvertent firings.

LAH · November 23, 2018, 09:15 AM

I use the CZ75 with hammer down & hot chamber. I've shot DA sixguns enough the first shot isn't a problem. And if you have the luxury of time you can manually cock the pistol just like a sixgun. In my circles the downside is uncocking after the shot is fired & the heart is still racing. With my CZ you simply apply the safety. If you have a decocker no problem. Again it's all a matter of training enough that you do what you are conditioned to do.

WyMark · November 24, 2018, 11:22 PM

If you choose to carry an SA pistol cocked with the safety off (see P938 thread), or a DA/SA pistol with the hammer back and safety off, or a revolver cocked over a loaded chamber...please do so AIWB.

Sterilizing yourself is the best favor you could possibly do for humanity.

Cosmodragoon · November 25, 2018, 01:04 AM

I'm not sure exactly what Ignition Override is trying to say. Perhaps it is that failing to reach a concealed firearm is something that can legitimately go wrong for armed people in defensive encounters. While having a gun can dramatically tilt the odds in your favor, you might not be able to safely draw it in every situation. Understanding that limitation is important. So too is carefully considering how and where on your body you carry, and practicing drawing what you carry under different kinds of conditions so you get a good feel for it.

Safely drawing and reholstering with attention to where your fingers are is also important. This is a significant source of negligent discharges. It can still happen with double action triggers or manual safeties, the latter of which could be forgotten about or accidentally disengaged.

Speaking of manual safeties, it can work the other way too. Forgetting to disengage the manual safety in a high-adrenaline situation or simply failing to disengage it properly, for whatever reason, is another source of failure in defensive encounters. While arguably a smaller source of failure than failing to rack the slide on an empty chamber, it can and does happen. This is why I don't like manual safeties on carry guns.

If anyone is curious to see real defensive encounters caught on video and analyzed by a professional, check out "Active Self Protection" on YouTube. Just be warned, the videos can be graphic and the good guys don't always win.

**44 AMP** · November 25, 2018, 01:19 AM

First point, what gun you have determines your options. Blanket advice, such as "always carry with the safety on" does no good if your gun doesn't have a safety, such as a Sig P220 which has a de-cocker. And that particular advice might not be the best anyway.

I think the worst of both worlds is the de-cocker safety. The problem with those is that the gun can seem to work normally, except it won't fire. When you have a gun with a safety that allows cocked and locked, the trigger pull is blocked, this, ALONG with the gun not firing tells you instantly that the safety is still on.

But a DA/SA gun where the safety decocks the hammer, if you don't remember to take the safety OFF after decocking, the trigger pulls normally, the hammer rises and falls, but with the safety on, it just goes click, leaving you no clue WHY. Safety on?? Bad round??? there is no "feedback" from the trigger, and someone under a lot of stress could possibly do the "tap. rack, bang" drill, maybe even more than once before realizing that the problem is actually the safety being on.

The only time you should have the gun cocked with the safety OFF, or a no safety design cocked is when the gun is in your hands, never in your holster!

Ignition Override · December 1, 2018, 01:39 AM

44 AMP: Quite true with my .380 Russian Makarov. After decocking the hammer (lever moved upwards), the lever must be moved a Second time, put downwards into the fire position.

At least the decockers on my Sig P series and CZ 75 D PCR simply lower the hammers.

1MoreFord · December 1, 2018, 09:17 PM

I don't own a CZ.

However I do have a couple of DA/SA pistols. They both have slide mounted decocker/safeties. They aren't in my carry herd anymore but I'd carry them hammer down on a loaded chamber with the safety off.

If I had a CZ with a safety I'd carry it condition one.

If I had a CZ with a decocker I'd carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber and shoot it DA first shot.

November 25, 2018, 01:19 AM	#35
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,791	First point, what gun you have determines your options. Blanket advice, such as "always carry with the safety on" does no good if your gun doesn't have a safety, such as a Sig P220 which has a de-cocker. And that particular advice might not be the best anyway. I think the worst of both worlds is the de-cocker safety. The problem with those is that the gun can seem to work normally, except it won't fire. When you have a gun with a safety that allows cocked and locked, the trigger pull is blocked, this, ALONG with the gun not firing tells you instantly that the safety is still on. But a DA/SA gun where the safety decocks the hammer, if you don't remember to take the safety OFF after decocking, the trigger pulls normally, the hammer rises and falls, but with the safety on, it just goes click, leaving you no clue WHY. Safety on?? Bad round??? there is no "feedback" from the trigger, and someone under a lot of stress could possibly do the "tap. rack, bang" drill, maybe even more than once before realizing that the problem is actually the safety being on. The only time you should have the gun cocked with the safety OFF, or a no safety design cocked is when the gun is in your hands, never in your holster! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

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November 22, 2018, 08:22 PM	#26
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,321	Cocked and locked. That first shot will most likely be the gamechanger. I want it SA. As for the no safety crowd....ask yourself how you are going to train yourself up to this super high level af skill, but cannot manipulate the safety before you are ready to pull the trigger...

November 23, 2018, 09:15 AM	#32
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	I use the CZ75 with hammer down & hot chamber. I've shot DA sixguns enough the first shot isn't a problem. And if you have the luxury of time you can manually cock the pistol just like a sixgun. In my circles the downside is uncocking after the shot is fired & the heart is still racing. With my CZ you simply apply the safety. If you have a decocker no problem. Again it's all a matter of training enough that you do what you are conditioned to do.

November 24, 2018, 11:22 PM	#33
WyMark Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 647	If you choose to carry an SA pistol cocked with the safety off (see P938 thread), or a DA/SA pistol with the hammer back and safety off, or a revolver cocked over a loaded chamber...please do so AIWB. Sterilizing yourself is the best favor you could possibly do for humanity.

November 25, 2018, 01:04 AM	#34
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	I'm not sure exactly what Ignition Override is trying to say. Perhaps it is that failing to reach a concealed firearm is something that can legitimately go wrong for armed people in defensive encounters. While having a gun can dramatically tilt the odds in your favor, you might not be able to safely draw it in every situation. Understanding that limitation is important. So too is carefully considering how and where on your body you carry, and practicing drawing what you carry under different kinds of conditions so you get a good feel for it. Safely drawing and reholstering with attention to where your fingers are is also important. This is a significant source of negligent discharges. It can still happen with double action triggers or manual safeties, the latter of which could be forgotten about or accidentally disengaged. Speaking of manual safeties, it can work the other way too. Forgetting to disengage the manual safety in a high-adrenaline situation or simply failing to disengage it properly, for whatever reason, is another source of failure in defensive encounters. While arguably a smaller source of failure than failing to rack the slide on an empty chamber, it can and does happen. This is why I don't like manual safeties on carry guns. If anyone is curious to see real defensive encounters caught on video and analyzed by a professional, check out "Active Self Protection" on YouTube. Just be warned, the videos can be graphic and the good guys don't always win.

December 1, 2018, 01:39 AM	#36
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	44 AMP: Quite true with my .380 Russian Makarov. After decocking the hammer (lever moved upwards), the lever must be moved a Second time, put downwards into the fire position. At least the decockers on my Sig P series and CZ 75 D PCR simply lower the hammers.

December 1, 2018, 09:17 PM	#37
1MoreFord Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2014 Location: Arkansas Posts: 244	I don't own a CZ. However I do have a couple of DA/SA pistols. They both have slide mounted decocker/safeties. They aren't in my carry herd anymore but I'd carry them hammer down on a loaded chamber with the safety off. If I had a CZ with a safety I'd carry it condition one. If I had a CZ with a decocker I'd carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber and shoot it DA first shot.