Rubber slugs or Non Lethal means for yard defense

chasu · September 22, 2016, 03:22 PM

Aware of laws protecting inside the home, what are some feasible means of protecting, say, a vehicle in the carport or driveway. If you approach a thief that has broken into your vehicle and you have (non-lethal) taser or rubber buckshot, would you shoot them? In Louisiana, I'd be in a world of trouble shooting someone with conventional ammo that is not threatening me directly with a weapon, but man, I'd sure love to pepper them with some rubber buckshot to the thighs. Thoughts?

TXAZ · September 22, 2016, 03:54 PM

I'm glad I'm in Texas.
If I felt the need to approach an auto burglar it wouldn't be with non lethal, and not sure why such an approach might be needed.
Call 911, monitor via surveillance system, disable his vehicle if needed from a safe position. IF, (and I can't see it if it's just my truck) but if some exigent circumstance occurs then it's a different matter, and no holds would be barred.

Don P · September 22, 2016, 04:02 PM

Don't know about LA. Here in FLA that would be considered brandishing, using displaying a weapon to get the upper hand. TXAZ good point stay inside guard the home /911, wait on the calvery

FireForged · September 22, 2016, 04:22 PM

oh my

Bartholomew Roberts · September 22, 2016, 05:51 PM

Rubber slugs and rubber buckshot are LESS lethal, not non-lethal. They can and have killed people, which is why police officers receive specific training in their use. Police officers also typically employ these while wearing body armor and backed up by other officers who have regular ammunition loaded and ready.

I'm not familiar with Louisiana's state laws on self-defense, which are a bit different in effect than most states. In many states, you'd need to meet the same legal threshhold (a reasonable fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury) to use rubber buckshot as you would to use lead shot. So, it rarely makes sense to use rubber buckshot when facing an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.

Might I suggest that you are using the wrong tool for the job? The purpose of having a firearm is self-defense, not to administer corporal punishment on those you think deserving of it. I get that nobody like thieves; but ask yourself what are you trying to do here that rubber buckshot is a good choice?

Sharkbite · September 22, 2016, 05:54 PM

So many things wrong about that response to an auto burg

Lohman446 · September 22, 2016, 06:23 PM

Unless you are legally justified to use your gun don't entertain other ways to use your gun

MarkGlazer · September 22, 2016, 08:22 PM

The use of a gun in a non-defensive situation is illegal in the State of Ga., where I currently reside. You simply can not discharge a weapon if it isn't in defense of life. The load is irrelevant.

That being said, I've always wondered if a paintball gun might be both a fun alternative and a lesson learned for the bad guy. Yeah, I can imagine why this is bad in so many ways and what it might turn into, but I can't help thinking about some idiot running down my driveway shrieking in pain and dripping pink.... doesn't hurt to dream does it?

chasu · September 22, 2016, 08:41 PM

So, the assumption that I'm looking for a reason to use my gun can't be farther from the truth. I rather never have to use my gun, and I'll admit, the way I put that I'd love to use less lethal rubber buckshot to the thighs doesn't constitute an action that is intended to be lethal. I could legally use a taser in Louisiana. How would this be different?

Sharkbite · September 22, 2016, 09:14 PM

Quote:

How would this be different?

The difference is a TASER is not a firearm. A shotgun loaded with rubber buck, beanbags, rocksalt or OO buck IS a firearm. The laws reguarding discharging a firearm prohibit shooting someone unless your life (or anothers) is in danger.

TASERS and defensive sprays have a lower threshold to legally use then "deadly force". Which is what you are using regardless of what load you have in the gun.

chasu · September 22, 2016, 09:27 PM

MarkGlazer - true

SharkBite - I get the point now. Very well stated. I appreciate the input.

Hawg · September 22, 2016, 10:05 PM

Here in MS castle doctrine includes your vehicle.

849ACSO · September 22, 2016, 10:26 PM

It's a bad move to shoot anything at someone who don't need no shootin'..........

Even less lethal rounds can be lethal, especially if your not trained on how/when to use them. They aren't called "less than lethal", they're LESS LETHAL than hard bullets.

If you're going to shoot a projectile at someone, it should probably be to defend your life or another's, not the change in your center console........

Quote:

Here in MS castle doctrine includes your vehicle

Pretty sure that means if you're in it, not when it's empty. You shoot someone for breaking into your car that you're not in, and there's no risk for injury or loss of life to an innocent, and I can almost assure you there's bad ju-ju headed your way.

johnwilliamson062 · September 23, 2016, 12:55 AM

I don't think there are many places where you are on solid ground tasering or paintballing someone who is not an immediate threat to someones safety.

briandg · September 23, 2016, 05:33 AM

The biggest problem that I see is that you are moving towards danger when no danger already exists. Walking out the door to prevent property theft or damage is where your biggest risk is. If there are other problems down the line, that's the start of the encounter. As much as the gut recoils at letting an intruder on the property freely mess about, the absolutely safe action is to just let it happen and make sure you have a good record of what's happening. Get video.

I don't think that you could be faulted for opening your door and hollering "hey, buttheads, I have you on film!"

Strafer Gott · September 23, 2016, 09:41 AM

Go down to the local dealership and price out a loaded pickup. Now consider that might look a pittance in comparison to your legal fees. You'd be better off shooting your own dam truck. Just a thought.

K_Mac · September 23, 2016, 10:09 AM

I have argued in the past that I have a right to protect my stuff. Using deadly force to so, especially if I initiate the contact, is a bad idea though. Yes, if violence is threatened, and death or severe bodily harm is imminent it is justified. If not, killing someone for stealing your vehicle is probably going to end badly.

Rubber bullets and tasers can be lethal. In that situation, explaining to a prosecutor or jury why you used either one to save your truck would be a very bad spot in most places.

chasu · September 23, 2016, 11:17 AM

I get it. Castle doctrine and all. I was just asking about "What if". Someone was recently killed by LEO in my town with rubber projectile. Went right in the temple. It happens. I get it.

Now I could place a drawn back marble into his flank with a slingshot !!!

T. O'Heir · September 23, 2016, 11:38 AM

"...Rubber slugs and rubber buckshot are LESS lethal, not non-lethal..." Also for riot control, not criminal disabling. Said rubber is also India rubber think very hard stuff.
The "right" to use deadly force to protect your stuff isn't the same everywhere. Neither are Tasers.
Suspect you'd be in a world of trouble both from police and civil suits if you shoot somebody with anything when not being directly threatened. Like briandg says, it's you who did the escalating.

stonewall50 · September 23, 2016, 11:42 AM

The thief may DESERVE some bad leg bruising or tasing, but the law isn't going to protect you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bartholomew Roberts · September 23, 2016, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Rubber bullets and tasers can be lethal.

Actually, people have died after being tased; but so far nobody has been successful in proving the Taser caused the death*. Rubber bullets on the other hand have unequivocally caused death and the people who sell them usually include warnings of the potential for death or serious bodily injury. So that is one way using a taser isn't like using rubber bullets. In either case, the people using those items usually receive specialized training on their appropriate use.

*There was an incident where a guy got tased and then fell and struck his head, causing him to die from the concussion; but none as a direct result of a taser.

K_Mac · September 23, 2016, 03:02 PM

The incident with Chase Sherman in Coweta County, Ga. In November of last year seems to be death by repeated tasing. Whether this has been litigated or not is unknown to me. There is certainly risk in using one, and to do so to prevent property theft is not one I am willing to take.

Old Bill Dibble · September 23, 2016, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Actually, people have died after being tased; but so far nobody has been successful in proving the Taser caused the death

A number of people die each year after being tased. The problem is a lot of these people are high on drugs and have other health problems which is often related to why they are getting tased.

357 Python · September 23, 2016, 04:09 PM

In most states you would not be justified in firing any shot unless you are physically threatened with crippling injury or death. Rubber buckshot is a very bad idea. If you are justified in firing that load you are justified in using lead shot. Pepper spray is a way to avoid using deadly force and can be used only when you are in fear of physical harm. Also realize there are people who are unaffected by pepper spray so it is not always successful. Neither can be used as retribution for a crime against property. If you do that the bad guy has a very good chance in civil court and could take everything you have. If you suspect someone breaking into your vehicle the best and probably most prudent thing is to get their plate number while calling the local police, give them a description and let them deal with the bad guys. This is for actions outside the home but once they kick in the door or come through a window all bets are off. It back gets back to the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy aspect of lethal force.

briandg · September 23, 2016, 05:52 PM

The point about rubber shot not being bouncy and soft is important.

Rubber slugs and shot are hard and stiff, what is less damaging is that they are light weight and low density. a rubber shot cant ordinarily penetrate flesh because the density is too low, and it encounters too much resistance from the target. the same weight of lead shot at the same veliocity will have far less resistance and will penetrate far more easily.

I've been smacked around by tennis balls for years. If a lead ball that weighs as much as a tennis ball hit me at the same speed as a tennis ball reaches, It's going to really leave a mark.

September 22, 2016, 03:22 PM	#1
chasu Member Join Date: October 30, 2002 Location: Sportsman's Paradise Posts: 20	Rubber slugs or Non Lethal means for yard defense Aware of laws protecting inside the home, what are some feasible means of protecting, say, a vehicle in the carport or driveway. If you approach a thief that has broken into your vehicle and you have (non-lethal) taser or rubber buckshot, would you shoot them? In Louisiana, I'd be in a world of trouble shooting someone with conventional ammo that is not threatening me directly with a weapon, but man, I'd sure love to pepper them with some rubber buckshot to the thighs. Thoughts?

September 22, 2016, 03:54 PM	#2
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	I'm glad I'm in Texas. If I felt the need to approach an auto burglar it wouldn't be with non lethal, and not sure why such an approach might be needed. Call 911, monitor via surveillance system, disable his vehicle if needed from a safe position. IF, (and I can't see it if it's just my truck) but if some exigent circumstance occurs then it's a different matter, and no holds would be barred. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes Last edited by TXAZ; September 22, 2016 at 04:02 PM.

September 22, 2016, 04:02 PM	#3
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Don't know about LA. Here in FLA that would be considered brandishing, using displaying a weapon to get the upper hand. TXAZ good point stay inside guard the home /911, wait on the calvery __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

September 22, 2016, 04:22 PM	#4
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	oh my __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

September 22, 2016, 05:51 PM	#5
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Rubber slugs and rubber buckshot are LESS lethal, not non-lethal. They can and have killed people, which is why police officers receive specific training in their use. Police officers also typically employ these while wearing body armor and backed up by other officers who have regular ammunition loaded and ready. I'm not familiar with Louisiana's state laws on self-defense, which are a bit different in effect than most states. In many states, you'd need to meet the same legal threshhold (a reasonable fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury) to use rubber buckshot as you would to use lead shot. So, it rarely makes sense to use rubber buckshot when facing an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. Might I suggest that you are using the wrong tool for the job? The purpose of having a firearm is self-defense, not to administer corporal punishment on those you think deserving of it. I get that nobody like thieves; but ask yourself what are you trying to do here that rubber buckshot is a good choice? Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; September 22, 2016 at 05:58 PM.

September 22, 2016, 05:54 PM	#6
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	So many things wrong about that response to an auto burg

September 22, 2016, 06:23 PM	#7
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Unless you are legally justified to use your gun don't entertain other ways to use your gun

September 22, 2016, 08:22 PM	#8
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	The use of a gun in a non-defensive situation is illegal in the State of Ga., where I currently reside. You simply can not discharge a weapon if it isn't in defense of life. The load is irrelevant. That being said, I've always wondered if a paintball gun might be both a fun alternative and a lesson learned for the bad guy. Yeah, I can imagine why this is bad in so many ways and what it might turn into, but I can't help thinking about some idiot running down my driveway shrieking in pain and dripping pink.... doesn't hurt to dream does it? __________________ non ministrari sed ministrare

September 22, 2016, 08:41 PM	#9
chasu Member Join Date: October 30, 2002 Location: Sportsman's Paradise Posts: 20	Ok So, the assumption that I'm looking for a reason to use my gun can't be farther from the truth. I rather never have to use my gun, and I'll admit, the way I put that I'd love to use less lethal rubber buckshot to the thighs doesn't constitute an action that is intended to be lethal. I could legally use a taser in Louisiana. How would this be different?

September 22, 2016, 09:27 PM	#11
chasu Member Join Date: October 30, 2002 Location: Sportsman's Paradise Posts: 20	Ok MarkGlazer - true SharkBite - I get the point now. Very well stated. I appreciate the input.

September 22, 2016, 10:05 PM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Here in MS castle doctrine includes your vehicle.

September 23, 2016, 12:55 AM	#14
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I don't think there are many places where you are on solid ground tasering or paintballing someone who is not an immediate threat to someones safety.

September 23, 2016, 05:33 AM	#15
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	The biggest problem that I see is that you are moving towards danger when no danger already exists. Walking out the door to prevent property theft or damage is where your biggest risk is. If there are other problems down the line, that's the start of the encounter. As much as the gut recoils at letting an intruder on the property freely mess about, the absolutely safe action is to just let it happen and make sure you have a good record of what's happening. Get video. I don't think that you could be faulted for opening your door and hollering "hey, buttheads, I have you on film!" __________________ None.

September 23, 2016, 09:41 AM	#16
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Go down to the local dealership and price out a loaded pickup. Now consider that might look a pittance in comparison to your legal fees. You'd be better off shooting your own dam truck. Just a thought. Last edited by Strafer Gott; September 23, 2016 at 09:43 AM. Reason: syntax

September 23, 2016, 10:09 AM	#17
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I have argued in the past that I have a right to protect my stuff. Using deadly force to so, especially if I initiate the contact, is a bad idea though. Yes, if violence is threatened, and death or severe bodily harm is imminent it is justified. If not, killing someone for stealing your vehicle is probably going to end badly. Rubber bullets and tasers can be lethal. In that situation, explaining to a prosecutor or jury why you used either one to save your truck would be a very bad spot in most places. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

September 23, 2016, 11:17 AM	#18
chasu Member Join Date: October 30, 2002 Location: Sportsman's Paradise Posts: 20	I get it I get it. Castle doctrine and all. I was just asking about "What if". Someone was recently killed by LEO in my town with rubber projectile. Went right in the temple. It happens. I get it. Now I could place a drawn back marble into his flank with a slingshot !!!

September 23, 2016, 11:38 AM	#19
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Rubber slugs and rubber buckshot are LESS lethal, not non-lethal..." Also for riot control, not criminal disabling. Said rubber is also India rubber think very hard stuff. The "right" to use deadly force to protect your stuff isn't the same everywhere. Neither are Tasers. Suspect you'd be in a world of trouble both from police and civil suits if you shoot somebody with anything when not being directly threatened. Like briandg says, it's you who did the escalating. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

September 23, 2016, 11:42 AM	#20
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	The thief may DESERVE some bad leg bruising or tasing, but the law isn't going to protect you. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

September 23, 2016, 03:02 PM	#22
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	The incident with Chase Sherman in Coweta County, Ga. In November of last year seems to be death by repeated tasing. Whether this has been litigated or not is unknown to me. There is certainly risk in using one, and to do so to prevent property theft is not one I am willing to take. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

September 23, 2016, 04:09 PM	#24
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	In most states you would not be justified in firing any shot unless you are physically threatened with crippling injury or death. Rubber buckshot is a very bad idea. If you are justified in firing that load you are justified in using lead shot. Pepper spray is a way to avoid using deadly force and can be used only when you are in fear of physical harm. Also realize there are people who are unaffected by pepper spray so it is not always successful. Neither can be used as retribution for a crime against property. If you do that the bad guy has a very good chance in civil court and could take everything you have. If you suspect someone breaking into your vehicle the best and probably most prudent thing is to get their plate number while calling the local police, give them a description and let them deal with the bad guys. This is for actions outside the home but once they kick in the door or come through a window all bets are off. It back gets back to the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy aspect of lethal force.

September 23, 2016, 05:52 PM	#25
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	The point about rubber shot not being bouncy and soft is important. Rubber slugs and shot are hard and stiff, what is less damaging is that they are light weight and low density. a rubber shot cant ordinarily penetrate flesh because the density is too low, and it encounters too much resistance from the target. the same weight of lead shot at the same veliocity will have far less resistance and will penetrate far more easily. I've been smacked around by tennis balls for years. If a lead ball that weighs as much as a tennis ball hit me at the same speed as a tennis ball reaches, It's going to really leave a mark. __________________ None.