What really happens in a real fight?

[Skorzeny]

The Observer:

You seem to assuming A LOT of things without really knowing so.

For example, why do you assume that I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do for cultural or racial reasons (your comment, to quote "am I second to your race as caucasian?")? How do you even know if I am Caucasian? I could be African, Asian, Hispanic or mixed. I won't tell, because I don't intend to make that an issue (race or national origin is a non-issue for me). I will tell you, however, that I have traveled, lived, studied (academically) and trained extensively both within and outside of the United States. I will go as far to say that the US is my adopted country, rather than that of birth.

If I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do, it is because they are unrealistic for street fighting, self-defense and such (anti-rape for women). No doubt there are some tough Karateka or Tae Kwon Do men. But we are talking about how the systems are practiced in general.

And, mind you, I trained Tae Kwon Do in Korea and studied Shotokan in Japan. I understand pretty thoroughly the limitations of both systems. They make great participatory and spectator sports, but they are not particularly useful for self-defense (armed or unarmed), because their training and techniques (as you pointed out) are unrealistic.

I was a pretty mal-adjusted youth once (before I cleaned up and took up studying) and I have gotten into an unfortunately high number of street fights. I, by no means, can speak of all self-defense or street fighting situations, but I have been through quite a few and can speak with some authority about what actually happens in a street encounter.

Also, having studied various striking, throwing, grappling and weapons-based systems of "self-defense," I also have a pretty good idea of what their usefulness and limitations are.

Indeed, as you pointed out, many sports-based (TKD, Karate, Kickboxing, Olympic Judo, etc.) and quasi-religious (Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan) systems teach an array of ineffective techniques (for a variety of reasons, many of them cultural and historical).

Others, however, teach extremely effective techniques in their contexts. For example, boxing and Muay Thai excel in striking techiques. Shui Chiao, Kodokan Judo and free-style wresting are excellent throwing systems (and more). Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shoot wrestling and Sambo are great ground grappling arts. Systems like Shooto and Jeet Kune Do do a magnificent job of integrating several systems into effective fighting arts.

These are all very highly effective arts and I have witnessed their practitioners put their skills to quite deadly use in street encounters and no-holds barred fights (minimum rules).

Now, what makes some systems very effective and others not? I urge you to read my original post on this thread about "static" and "dynamic" training. Those systems that emphasize static training only (or heavily) tend to be ineffective (for the reasons I elaborated). Those that integrate dynamic training generally tend to be effective for the street (again, for the reasons I elaborated). A quick example is boxing (since you seem to think highly of boxing from your "farm boy with basic boxing can beat any martial artist comment). Boxers are excellent street punchers and it is NOT because of some secret, mystical reasons. It is because they engage in DYNAMIC training (meaning free-sparring). They quickly learn what works and what does not when one is exchanging heavy and painful blows to the head and the body (I know, I boxed for a bit when I was young).

Now, that effectiveness is in context of exchanging punches. Boxers become helpless if the "game" includes more than punching (kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting, throwing, grappling). The idea, then, is to train in integrated systems (with dynamic training), which include weapons training, by the way. This is one of the reasons why NHB scene is increasingly and irrevocably dominated by MIXED martial arts systems that teach striking, throwing and grappling (all in DYNAMIC context).

BTW, before you imagine me to be some sort of "kick ass" wannabe, I will tell you my philosophy of street self-defense. It is called E-S-C-A-P-E. I learned long ago that to engage in any kind of violent activity (not sanctioned by law) is a lose-lose situation whether or not I "beat" the other fellow. I will only "fight" if cornered with no possibility of escape. Even then, I will seek for opportunities for escape rather than "to win."

In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!

Enough said (for now), I retire into my slumber...

Oh, one more thing. Since I am a military historian/analyst, I will tell you that Vietnam was never considered third-rate in "military tactics." It might have been considered to be a third-rate "military power," but the Vietnamese have always demonstrated an ingenuity and willingness to resist foreign interference in their affairs, whether from the Chinese, French, British, French again, American and Chinese again, while we Americans have never been considered the master of what the British termed "small wars" since our Revolutionary War. Just felt a need to clarify... (since this is within the realm of my "bread-winning" vocation).

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]

[MTAA]

In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!


Two things, I was watching a Discovery channel piece on the Army Rangers and this pompous instructor was bragging about how quick the Rangers had been to adopt BJJ into their hand to hand combat training. He then went on to demonstrate some groundfighting where he was trying to manipulate a student from the guard. The whole time I'm thinking "Who's going to be doing this [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] in the middle of a war !!??". I don't know what this guy was thinking but the last thing a soldier is going to want to do in a chaotic situation is get a guy in an armbar or choke him out while on the ground.

At the very least in street fighting grappling helps you prevent going to the ground because you will be familiar with how one would initiate a takedown. No one likes sprawling on cement

[dragontooth73]

dang Skorzeny ... i edited my reply to Observer coz i didn't want to flame him too hard ... obviously you did it for me lol

seriously though ... love your credo ... i have the exact same one i prefer to disengage whenever possible coz in asia (as you probably well know) anyone you mess with has 20 friends around the corner, usually short, mean, vicious ... well i think you know.

actually i wasn't even going to reply to "vietnam as a third-rate military power" or whatever that was supposed to be ... *dien bien phu* says enough ... actually it takes about 2-15 reads of that last sentence to REALLY get what was meant by Observer, which is probably average ...

oya ... can anyone tell me what the *Mental Edge* is supposed to be?


[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 19, 2000).]

[Skorzeny]

MTAA:

Actually, that statement from the Ranger HtH trainer has been taken out of context.

In other interviews and segments, he stated pretty clearly that the PRIMARY reason why the Rangers are trained in BJJ is to help develop a "warrior spirit." Now, I do not think that he was suggesting that other systems do not develop the warrior spirit. I believe that BJJ's close association with the UFC and other NHB fighting events has given it some (deserved) reputation as such.

If it were up to me to train the Rangers in HtH combat, I'd bump up pistol shooting, knife/bayonet fighting, improvised weapons training (mainly spades, shovels, picks and such) and some throwing and grappling (also incorporating rifles, pistols and bayonets as well as empty-hand). But, then again, this would look A LOT like Russian military Sambo.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[The Observer]

Greetings:

I have only answered the following question of the poster:

...did you use the techniques that you trained in and did it come out the way you trained or were taught or did it evolve to a free for all or something in between?

I have elaborated that much and the topic touches other areas of interest.

Guys, "DON'T BE EASILY BOTHERED".

Thanks

[dragontooth73]

In real life, in a real fight.... I know Gun-fu.

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Fear the Government that fears your gun!!!


[This message has been edited by Badkarma187 (edited September 20, 2000).]

[krept]

The Mental Edge is a sub-forum of mixedmartialarts.com. They guy that runs it is a great guy IMO. Check it out (and the rest of the site) for great info.

Skorzeny, your post is right on target, as usual.

Cheers,
Erik

[MTAA]

Skorzeny,

In the piece that I saw, the instructor did mention UFC and the recent success of BJJ, why or why not that makes an impression on him (fighting spirit, jumping on the bandwagon) still baffles me as how he will apply that to HtH training for the Rangers. He said he condensed the art to some 10-15 basic moves (umm ok?). What bothered me was that he was bragging about the success of BJJ in the ring as if that alone was reason enough to incorporate it into training. Meantime other militaries have developed HtH training which are more involved with their surroundings (Krav Maga, Military Sambo)rather than one-on-one combat training.

Too bad the trainer who was so quick to jump on "The next best thing" didn't get to see BJJ and the Gracies lose once they stopped fighting in UFC and other self sponsored events.

[Skorzeny]

krept:

Good to see you here as well. I believe the renowned Tony Blauer runs the Mental Edge on mixedmartialarts.com, does he not?

MTAA:

Certainly there is an element of hype in selecting BJJ for the Rangers. I acknowledge that. I also agree that other systems, such as military Sambo, would be much more appropriate for the Rangers than BJJ (right, try getting someone among the brass to adopt a "former Soviet" system).

On the other hand, some military forces around the world teach Tae Kwon Do, Karate or sports/Olympic Judo to their commandos, so BJJ isn't so bad in comparison.

Also, to be fair, we should admit that "the Gracies started losing" because the rest of the NHB/MMA crowd caught up with the Gracies in grappling/submission skills. Even the Japanese Shootwrestling was not practiced before the "advent" of the Gracies, the way it is practiced today.

Like it or not, the Gracies and BJJ have made a profound impact on the martial arts scene, even in Japan.

Lastly, I have observed that "combatives" are now becoming the flavor of the month. This is something Mark Tripp (certainly no friend of the BJJ) on mixedmartialarts.com observed as well.

Combatives are all very dandy, except one ought to always complement what is largely static training with some realistic dynamic training, lest one falls into the trap of invincibility from unrealistic training ("you-hit-me-and-stay-still-and-I-hit-you-ten-times!").

This is the strength of BJJ, as is the case with Kodokan Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[LiquidTension]

I just started reading this thread tonight. All I can say is this - Dragontooth, will you be my friend? Because I REALLY don't want you as an enemy!

[dragontooth73]

um ... LiquidTension ... i'm not a Type A werewolf type maniac ... i'm actually very very friendly (i work in retail for the time being and i get props every day from strange people who tell management i should get a raise) ... it's just that people around me tend to get hurt a lot. i could wish i was skilled as some of the other TFLers in the martial arts and firearms expertise, but i'm not. i'll be the first to admit that. which is why i work on both my strengths and weaknesses so i can stop wishing.

some of the people here DO sound like fobs ... incoherent, to say the least, but for the most part this forum is full of very sensible, humble people of much wisdom and goodness in their lives. i give you all a salute /

ps - the friend of mine in singapore is doing fine. what really struck a dozen nerves with me is her getting hit in the face (she's a part-time model) ... oh well it's done and over with now.

[LiquidTension]

I was more referring to the Triad connections than your attitude =) I realize that you're a good guy and didn't mean to imply that you weren't. That make more sense?

[tobeat1]

Just wanted to jump in on something that was stated early one in the thread. What style or affiliation of aikido is being discussed? I understand the most common form taught is pretty tame, but I have to say that after watching a friend of mine test for Shodan that was far from the truth. At one point in testing they had up to six uke going after him in randori. This was done freeform, no planned attacks. He did get tagged a couple of times though.(showed his back too much). I believe that all styles have thier own merit in a street confrontation, and we should embrace all.

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"peace, love, joy, and happiness..."

[LawDog]

To answer the original question, "What really happens in a real fight?", it varies from person to person, not only from a training point of view, but from genetics and experience.

For example, during my initial experiences in fighting, I got tunnel-vision--bad tunnel-vision. I have trained myself to the point where I don't tunnel as bad as I used to, but it's still very noticeable. And peripheal vision, although normally very good, only seems to pick up motion.

This can lead to embarrassing incidents, such as the one where I went through a house at high-speed looking for a critter, and missed his lady. She was curled up on the couch as small as she could make herself and was not moving. My peripheal vision apparently ignored her, even though she was in plain sight as I passed less than six feet away from her.

Other senses (smell, hearing, touch, time, etc.) will also start doing really wierd things.

During an intial contact, your training may seem to you to vanish. It's my experince that the training is there, you simply have so many other things on your mind that you don't realize you're using it.

Case in point: a young officer and I were got involved in a scuffle that went rodeo in a hurry. I saw the officer pull his sidearm and use it to bring the situation under control, he used a very nice fast draw to do it. When the critter proned out, the officer replaced the sidearm in his holster, using the palm of his hand to ensure the weapon was seated, and snapped the retaining strap -- exactly as he had trained. After the fight, he swore that he had never pulled his sidearm, and was rather upset about it. We had to show him the cruiser cam footage before he'd believe that he had actually drawn his weapon.

Most important, if your training completely deserts you at the beginning of the fracas, it will more than likely come back after the critter's first punch connects. And the training allows you to control the panic and gives you the confidence to control the situation.

LawDog

[LASur5r]

Lawdog,
You brought up a really interesting point which I had observed but had forgotten.
Sometimes, it took a punch from the other guy before I got my self aligned and really ready to go.(Sort of a kick start...or a kick in the a**!)
Wonder if that's from too many hits in the head or just slow?

I remember reading accounts of the old fisticuffs where one or the other boxers took a couple punches first then they were ready to fight.
The trouble is, I am much older now and I don't want to take that first punch...might melt or something.

[dragontooth73]

actually there's a phenomenon called *musha burui* (lit. "warrior shivers") ... that's the japanese name for it ... where before battle you'd shiver (literally) with anticipation ... i don't know what to call it here ... but before i get *amped* i always get this ... i don't immediately kick-start into a high-adrenalin rush mode, whether that's to my detriment or not ... i don't need to get hit to go into it, but i do need a few minutes of continuous shaking (in anger) with some teeth clenching before i kick in ... afterwards i feel extremely tired and need to eat about 7000cal and get 16 hours rest before i am ok

[LASur5r]

Dragontooth73,
Is that before a fight? or before being "intimate" with a lady?

[dragontooth73]

hai hai ... you got me back for the AD crack in the other thread didn't you ...

[LASur5r]

Dragontooth 73,
Gomen nasai...I did not intend to get you back.
Just some kidding around. Did not mean to offend.
Regarding the "old practice" and what we strived to achieve, it was a nice dream and it was great practice in those old days...I guess it was like the times where you fought men of "honor" and they fought with the same understanding of the rules that you did.
BTW, Dragontooth 73, did you ever see the old Black and white movie, "Judo Saga?" That was a good movie, except it was dark in some areas of the film...it inspired many boys to sign up at the local judo dojo.
Skorzeny, when you are young and idealistic and raised on movie heroes like "Tange Zazen" or Zato Ichi, or many of the other make believe heroes...we thought that was so neat. Samurai sword on one hip and gun on other hip. It inspired you enough to join a martial art school.
Skorzeny and Dragontooth, where the trouble was that we thought that ability was readily attainable. And that was real fighting.
Reality check...not experiencing the difference and not knowing the difference was rampant in the old day dojo's. Like I said, at that time we fought fair fights so we could experiment and try and learn the hard way.
Enter street fighters and boxers and JKD and others and many, many of us came to a screeching halt against reality. It was hard to accept that what you had been studying and believing in all that time could not and would not work in a real fight...and as I said, I know of many martial artists who were seriously injured trying to make it work.
IMHO, I think alot of it didn't work because you didn't dare because of the large amount of injuries, lawsuits, and insurance. And I think a lot of instructors didn't want to make the transition and many didn't know how to make it work.
I know after getting thoroughly whipped by Bruce, I wandered around trying to figure it out...total denial. I returned often because I lived in a different part of the state and even offered to give up my college and teaching M.A. to learn under him.
He told me to get rid of the garbage, I knew more than enough techniques...according to him, and I had to find what worked for me in the simplest and fastest way.
I hung around with Golden Glove boxers and eventually an ex-Navy boxer that brought me closer to reality, but styles that put it all together with realistic training? those were few and far between.

Anyway...thanks to you all...if only I could go on the path in the search for truth again...Ronin style...ah...dream on...reality is right in front of my face and i don't see it yet. So is my wife and she sees that faraway look on my face on it and she is shaking her head no.

[dragontooth73]

LASur5er, you seem to think of going on a "musha shugyo" (lit. warrior studies) trip ... sounds fun, but if your wife says you're past the age to hone "garoh ken" (lit. hungry wolf fist, a term for any self-honed martial art) then stay home. i think you're skilled enough. if bruce lee said so, who am i to argue ... who is anyone else to do so.

have fun with the thought though ... can't believe you saw the zatoichi series of flicks LOL ... ya the new adaptation by katsu shintaro was fantastic. too bad he died (cocaine-induced heart failure).

[fubsy]

I am going to relate an actual event that occured two days ago.....Im not going to go into extreme detail, and I dont think my friend will mind me relating this....the story was listed in the Citrus County Chronicle.
Two days ago my friend was attacked in his store by a young man wielding a samauri sword. The guy managed to enter the store and stab my friend in the chest, the chair my friend was in gave way, he missed the grab for his gun and the kid came around the counter and continued his attack. My friend realizing that bare hands against a sword is not good medicine tried to evade the attack by going to a back room(they were hemmed in by the counter they were behind), he dosent get the door secured before the kid is on him again, my friend gets to his desk in the back room trying to secure another loaded firearm and he then remembers that gun is apart for repairs and the kid delivers a brutal stroke, the blade penetrated the left side and came out the right side. Continuing to struggle my friend is trying to control this blade and this kid when he remembers he has a loaded 25acp in pockett, retrieving the pistol he shoots the kid in face. My friend is alive because he didnt quit....he had suffered wounds which should have incapcitated or quite possibly have killed him, but he stayed in the fight.
"what happens in a real fight"----O'toole shows up......and you just keep fighting or you die.... fubsy...

One other thing the kid was 5'2" 140lbs, my friend is 6'3" and 230lbs and he could hardly handle the kid....fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited September 28, 2000).]

[LASur5r]

Fubsy,
I am glad to hear that your friend is alive and well?

My grandpa told me "Never get in a fight with someone that has more to lose than you do."

Your friend obviously felt that he wanted to live...more than the other guy. Good on him.

Our prayers go with him for a speedy and healthy recovery.

[fubsy]

Lasur5r,
My friend has been split down the middle by doctors having to check his internal organs........he is in pain and the road to recovery will be long, and Im sure to be forced to take a life is unsettling even when it is in defense of your own.
Ill tell ya this much, my friend is quite a good pistolero, has had many years of leo experience prior to retiring to run his own business. He is a superb marksmen and a good tactician and it was all he could do to win....fubsy....

[LASur5r]

Fubsy,
Stay safe, bud.
Your friend needs you and your support.
Keep us posted as to his progress and if there's anything needed?