Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??

[jackmcmanus21]

birdshot would slow him down, don't know if it would stop him. I agree with the comment above, I wouldnt want to risk my families safety with ineffective ammo

[Crosshair]

Ask any paramedic, the lungs are easily reached with a 3" needle, less than 5 to the heart.

Being able to reach those organs is one thing. Being able to cause enough damage to incapacitate an attacker is another thing. Just pointing that out.

[Bill DeShivs]

Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.

[Rifleman 173]

00 buckshot works well for most self defense shooting needs. Why mess around with lighter weight shot in the first place? For anybody to survive ANY kind of shooting with a 12 guage shotgun is very unusual. Strange that a suspect get hits with a load of birdshot at close range and lives. I would guess that the suspect did not directly take the shot head on but was hit with a glancing shot.

[jamaica]

Since many of you have apparently not shot a shotgun, I can tell you this:
A magnum load of 12 ga. BB shot at close (HD) range will blow a large hole very nearly through a man. "But-what about the FBI's recommended 12" of penetration? What if his arm is in the way?"
He won't have an arm-at least much of one, anyway-and there will be a large, deep hole behind what is left of his arm.
I find it comical that people can not comprehend this!
If, for some miraculous reason a shot like this did not instantaneously render an attacker immobile, I can guarantee he will be going in the other direction-not towards you.

You got it right!

Folks, you gotta remember that a 12 gauge load of birdshot has 1.25 ounces of lead in it. At ranges less than 20 feet, there isn't much spread, it is all pretty much together. The impact of that load won't go un-noticed. Yes, I have seen the damage this will do to critters at close range, but I have never seen a man shot with a shotgun (and hope never to).

To answer your question directly. Yes, if you can hit your target in the right spot.

Are there better choices of shot size for HD? Yes.

[brickeyee]

And I've posted before I had a high school friend who got half his head blown off from bird shot, or enough of it he lived on life support for only 3 hours. Until I see something different in RL which contradicts that experience I'll keep to my own opinions before being swayed by folks on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned they believe they are. Sorry, seen the results first hand.

Range is everything.
A blank close enough would easily have done the same thing.
Heads are not designed to contain 15,000 PSI pressures.

Ever read Jeff Cooper's account of someone who committed suicide with a blank from a center fire rifle?

Small shot looses energy very rapidly.
I have been peppered from the other side of the lake.
Annoying but not especially dangerous (and why you always wear suitable eye protection).
An ex-girlfriends father was hit from about 50 feet with a load of bird shot.
It took plastic surgery to clean all the pellets out, but he was just fine.
It did ruin the jacket he had on though.

[FerFAL]

Birdshot is for birds.

And 50 BMG is an anti-material round. But it still kills you just as well.

At greater distances buckshot will be more effectice, but at "inside the house" distances, birdshot will work effectively, almost like buckshot but without the overpenetration.

Lots of bad guys killed with "birdshot". I dont know of anyone that got popped with it at close range and still managed to fight back. Alive? Maybe, sure. But there wont be much fight left in him after a center mass hit with ANY 12 ga round at close range.

FerFAL

[Scattergun Bob]

Honestly folks,

If your scattergun is loaded with birdshot, take the shot. Beyond that the following is hard fought truth.

At close quarters and contact distance ALL shot will perform about the same. We are talking 10 ft and closer. Beyond that disance the energy retention of small shot is UNEXCEPTABLE for use against human and larger targets.

Most of you take exception when I continue to rant about "rule #1 have a gun with in reason any gun will do", you all protest about enough rounds and effective "stopping power" in your pistols. Yet some of you are willing to carry Less in one of the most effective stoppers in your weapons arsenal! I am confused by the contradiction!

By the way, birdshot is used in training classes to save the gun and shooters shoulder. Take no other reference from that fact.

Good Luck & Be Safe

[Nnobby45]

Clint Smith recommends birdshot for dealing with Bubba down the hallway. There are others who think it's fine for home defense with penetration being the concern.

I wouldn't feel too bad off with birdshot, but prefer buck, and when I leave the house, it's buck or slugs.

[Scattergun Bob]

Please tell me that was a miss print! Clint is recommending birdshot!!!!!! If that is the case, I recommend not taking his advise. I have worked with Clint and he is a God with a carbine and pistol, I have never seen any of his stuff for shotgun, birdshot for bad guys is a BAD idea no matter from who's lips it comes from.

[guntotin_fool]

OK lesson Number one. Everybody go find a tape measure. Now, sitting in your house look around, and then measure what is the longest shot you can make inside your house.


no, go, do it, I'll wait.


NOW, convert that distance in feet to yards, Yup, divide the number every 12 inches by 3. For most of you, the longest straight line is going to be somewhere around 18 feet, or 6 yards, there will be a few who might push that, but in most houses, a 12x18 foot living room is the largest dimension.

You may go corner to corner on that room, and get something like 21.8 feet, or 7 yards.


Now comes the fun part, drive around and look for a dead dog that is pretty much whole, or get a heavy coat, and stuff it full of a deer carcase. Now back up seven steps and shoot it with a 12 gauge with an 1 1/2 ounce load of BB. Or better yet, wait till a feral dog runs out of your barn and shoot it at 7 yards, so you get that adrenalin dump into the dog. now walk up and stick your whole hand thru the hole in the animal, or faux animal, and tell me some guy is going to want to dance after taking that in chest, or leg or arm or head......

Now do the same at 2 yards, which would be the distance from the end of the barrel to your bedroom door. Or 3 yards, the Distance from the top of the stairs to the bottom. He MAY live, if you live close to the trauma center, they have the helo flying over your house when you pull the trigger, and IF they have no one else on the table when it happens.. . BUT he aint going to want to dance after a COM hit with load of BB's. IF you say otherwise, you have not done the experiments.


Some one said it earlier, RANGE is everything. at bad breath distances. an ounce and half of lead is still an ounce and a half of lead.

[Stumper]

There are a number of well informed posts in this thread and , unfortunately, a lot of spouting off from would be sages who lack sufficient practical experience with a shotgun. I have shot a number of animals up to 600lbs live weight with a 12ga. and can speak beyond mere theory though I certainly don't know everything about shotgun lethality.
Several posters have correctly pointed out the range is a huge factor.
At 3 yards no.6 birdshot will punch a hole like a slug. The charge will penetrate heavy bone. This isn't mere theory-I've made the shots, killed the animals looked at the results. At 40 yards a single no 6 shot can knock a man down(it happened to a friend of mine-on the other hand that was probably more surprise/shock than anything else)-it hit David in the lip. However at 40 yards 6s are unlikely to inflict fatal wounds on a man-they don't penetrate much-but weird things do happen with shot and sometimes a couple will stick together and penetrate where others in the charge couldn't even break the skin-I once dusted a jackrabbit with 71/2s at a measured 77yards and killed it deader than Clinton integrity-exactly 2 shot went between the ribs and into the heart.
It is entirely possible to drop a Steenbok(small African antelope) with a charge of 3s at 20 yards-Did it-(yes, many individual pellets got inside)
Buckshot has killing power beyond what mere energy figures reflect at ranges where the charge has opened and a genuine "pattern" exists-400 lb Hartebeest will stiffen in mid jump and fold never to rise again from a charge of 00 in the neck and chest(witnessed that multiple times so it wasn't an anomolous fluke).
I haven't shot much of anything with BB shot in a shotgun but Ive killed truckloads of small game with a .177 pellet rifle-If you aren't aware-BB shot are nominally .18 caliber and weigh about the same as those wasp waisted lead pellets. If you would let someone shoot you with an 7.5-8 grain .18 lead pellet or BB launched at 1200fps at any home defense distance you are not rational. While such projectiles may stop against or deflect out from substancial bone, every single one of them has the potential to reach the vitals or penetrate the skull of a man. Multiple simultaneous hits would very likely be instantly incapacitating.
Buckshot and slugs make sense in police cruisers. Inside a home birdshot (ANY SIZE) will be devastating----but don't buy the nonsense about not needing to aim-- it will hardly have spread at all at across the room distances. The 12ga. pump that is where I can lay hands on it should things go bump in the night is loaded with 1.25 oz 4s. I know what it can do and hope I never have to make such a mess of anyone.

[Scattergun Bob]

I expect you are addressing me. YOU SAID "unfortunately, a lot of spouting off from would be sages who lack sufficient practical experience with a shotgun." Simply put because of your experiences, my experiences are not valid?

I too have a great body of experience with Scatterguns, some actual combat experience. I may be the only person on this forum who has actualy seen a man shot at close range with BIRDSHOT, and another shot with BUCKSHOT at 35 feet. So, in all due respect, MY experience is both BOOK learned & HARD FOUGHT.

You Said "I have shot a number of animals up to 600lbs live weight with a 12ga. and can speak beyond mere theory though I certainly don't know everything about shotgun lethality." Did you use BIRDSHOT to accomplish this?

I can not understand why it is so difficult! At 35 ft BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE HUMANBEINGS WELL. At 35 ft BUCKSHOT DOES PENETRATE HUMANBEINGS VERY WELL. 35 ft is an average of the max clear distance of most homes. Shot performance is rocket science, it is not based on farm animals or dogs. (animals present a totally different target attitude and are not relevant to human beings.)

I will say this again for those who are slow in the uptake. At contact distance and close combat distance any shot will do, beound that WHY LIMIT YOURSELF!

[FerFAL]

Dont know about you guys, but for me it’s pretty simple.
The only good reason for keeping birdshot in a home defense shotgun is over penetration.

May be it's just ONE good reason, but it’s important enough for me. I don’t want to hurt my family if I happen to miss when shooting inside my house, or if a family member happens to be standing behind teh bad guy. My house interior walls are pretty thick and buck isn’t that likely to penetrate but I’m taking no chances.
Anyone that has dry walls in his house better think a million times before shooting buck inside the house.

As someone mentioned, at those ranges buck, bird or slug makes almost no difference.
I’ve seen the "box of truth" and it’s nice and all, but it offers nothing else but penetration data. Nice, but it’s just what it is.
The day the guy starts putting a guy inside that box, that’s when I’ll start using his information to make my self defense ammo decisions.
Until then, I’ll use what works on people, not water jugs. And any 12ga shot will stop an intruder at close range, no doubt about that.

What I do is the following.
The first shot in my 6+1 14 inch Mossberg 500 is 1 oz of birdshot N1 ( the biggest birdshot available) followed by 3 shells of 00 buck “General Purpose” FM military ammo.
That leaves me 2 “holes” to use the ammo in the stock shell holder, where I keep two rifled slugs, one LTL “anti riot” FM shell, and 3 more buckshot rounds.

The logic here is; If I’m using it in a hurry I’ll be using it very quick and doing so inside the house, that’s why I want birdshot for that first shot.
If people are still around after that first round, these guys are determined, the situation isn’t that simple, so the following rounds are buckshot.

If I had weak dry walls in my house, I’d probably make the first 2 or 3 rounds birdshot.

If I do have time to asses the situation, then I’ll be able to maybe use a more appropriate load, or even get the birdshot pumped out and load all of it with 00 buck instead.

Anyway, that’s how my shotgun is set up and I think it’s a good idea.

FerFAL

[guntotin_fool]

Scattergun bob.


I disagree with distinction. I was shot with #6 shot at almost 40 yards. I saw the shot coming on a hunt with first time hunters and "mentor" walking behind them. The boy who shot me saw the rooster take off and it j hooked back around almost right at us. The shooter developed tunnel vision and just kept following the bird and his mentor was a step slow in getting to him, I grabbed my young hunter and more or less did a barrel roll to the ground. The pellets that hit my arm penetrated nearly a foot across my back. The two that hit my neck hit my spine. Had they hit a disc instead of the spine, I would be a cripple. The two that hit my skull left hairline cracks.

I was lucky as all get out. I saw him concentrating on the bird and was quick enough to realize that an "oh! crap!" was about to happen. I walked out of the field, but I was so sore and stiff the next day that all I wanted was the demerol the doc at the local hospital gave me. I had Massive bruises across my back and arm from the bleeding. My hunter was sore from having me land on him, and I managed to crack the butt stock of the gun he was using when I landed on it. Had I taken the full pattern I am convinced one of them would have poked a hole in something vital. As it was, I took enough of the pellets that had I wanted to go on, I would have had a hard time. Those two pellets that hit my skull felt more like a hammer hitting me. The Load was a super x 20 gauge load of number 6 copper plated. I found several other holes in my gear after the fact where shot had been deflected or stopped by my pack and hunting coat (filson tin cloth).

Birdshot is not the top choice for human targets at long range. OBVIOUS. however, saying that small pellets will not penetrate is not true.

If you are talking about most people's houses, and the distances involved, a 5 to 7 yard shot is as far as you are going to get. and if they get in your bedroom, you have maybe 3 yards from muzzle to door. and thats all there is.

[jmcghee]

a 20 gauge with #8 shot at 20 feet will put a one inch whole in a mans head ,saw it done and he didnt even twitch jim

[jmcghee]

the prev mentionted shot to the head exited the hesd and went thru the windsheild.it was a 2 3/4 shell

[Scattergun Bob]

Sorry to hear about your incident.

I made no such claim! MY WORDS EXACTLY WERE "At 35 ft BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE HUMAN BEINGS WELL." No offense, can you imagine that perhaps you would not be here to share your story IF you had been hit with #4 or 00 Buckshot.

[nate45]

just get some buckshot. Get some #1 or 00 and save the birdshot for birds.

In a 2 3/4 in shell you get 16 .30 caliber #1 buck. All pellets will penetrate 12 inches or more.

Remember after placement, penetration is of the most importance, birdshot does not have what it takes for self defense.

[Nnobby45]

Buckshot and slugs make sense in police cruisers. Inside a home birdshot (ANY SIZE) will be devastating----but don't buy the nonsense about not needing to aim-- it will hardly have spread at all at across the room distances....

We could probably say that birdshot is very effective until it starts to spread out and develop a pattern. Home defense distances could easily be that far.

Once it does, it loses it's penetrating power, and can be defeated with cover like living room furniture. Even a heavy leather jacket would offer some protection. At "normal" (I'll let someone else define it) HD distances it's probably worse, and devastating would be correct since it will remove flesh and bone as has already been stated.

On the other hand, a chair or couch provides no cover for 00 buck.

Limiting the effectiveness of the shotgun to close, no pattern range is a tactical decision based on safety to innocent family members. If that's not a main concern, then 00 buck would be far more versatile.

Yes, I know, there are those who favor #4 buck, or those who think #1 is best. Number 4 buck is probably a good compromise between penetration and effectiveness.

[roy reali]

If birdshot is only effective against feathered creatures. Then is buckshot only effective against male deer? Does any shotshell maker produce BG shot?

[Scattergun Bob]

Yes,

It is called Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot

[Stumper]

SG Bob, Actually I wasn't referring to you ...or anyone else in particular. I simply read the thread, saw a few people mention the devastating effect of a close range charge of birdshot along with numerous "birdshot is for birds" statements. I am not negating the validity of anyone's experiences but I do think that armchair experts should listen to reports from people who have real experiences and weigh some facts before launching their own theories.
The initial question in this thread was whether a 12ga loaded with BBshot would stop a man effectively. I think that you agree that range is the most important determining factor in answering yes or no.(At 300 yards buckshot is going to suck big hairy moose lips too)
Yes I have killed 600lb animals with no 6 birdshot.-Head shots up close. I have killed 400lb animals on the run with buckshot. The 6s wouldn't have been the right choice for that running big game scenario but were adequate and available for a coup de grace on a couple big wounded critturs.

Hardly anyone is even paying attention to the original question-size BB is the transition point from birdshot to buckshot. It is very big birdshot...or small buckshot. My Grandfather used to hunt deer(successfully) with a 10 gauge loaded with BB. (His deer RIFLE was a 25-20 so you may notice that modern conventional wisdom about minimum power levels had very little to do with the needs of an old woodsman who knew how to shoot and where to hit 'em.)

I don't have any long shots in my home-the 12ga has 4s in it because I am confident they'll do the job yet limit the risk to my neighbors. If I were chosing ammo for outdoor defense or, heaven forbid, attack I would choose buckshot......but BB is big enough that it would probably be quite debilitating to BadBoys at 40 yards.

[roy reali]

Tactical buckshot? Would that be effective against male deer wearing dark clothing?

Now to be serious.

A person enters my home with ill-intent. I confront this intruder with one of my guns. It happens to be a 12 gauge field gun. The round in the chamber is a pheasant load. It is packed with an ounce and a half of 4 shot. I have the shotgun leveled at his chest at a distance of a dozen feet. He lunges at me. That forces me to pull the trigger. The firing pin detonates the primer. That sends those 200 or so projectiles down the muzzle at about 1200 feet per second. For all intenet and purpose they impact the BG's chest at the velocity.

Now, I am to assume that this fellow is going to take the shotgun out of my hands and proceed to kick my rear end?

[FerFAL]

Now, I am to assume that this fellow is going to take the shotgun out of my hands and proceed to kick my rear end?

Yes.

Because birdshot is for birds.

If you shoot a burglar with it the pellets will refuse to leave the barrel.

You can shoot him in the face at point blank, still wont work.

FerFAL