5year old shot with dads gun - Page 4

**44 AMP** · January 12, 2019, 02:05 PM

I used the link, but the story is no longer there. There is a story (with video) about a police officer shooting his partner in the back while searching for a fugitive....

"I forgot it was there"...
I'd say the Father's "forgetfulness" is certainly grounds to revoke any handgun permit he might have, probably sufficient cause for criminal charges, some level of reckless endangerment, I would think.

Quote:

I am sure the father never thought this would or could happen.

I'm sure he never did, either. That's what he forgot! Like some others here, I doubt the Father actually forgot the pistol was there. I think "I forgot it was there.." is the first thing that came out of his mouth for an explanation. Like "I didn't know it was loaded" and "It went off when I was cleaning it", its an automatic protestation of innocence that often isn't quite square with reality.

What he forgot was the risk of leaving a loaded gun, unattended and unsecured "for a few days"!!

Loaded pistol, round in the chamber in the pouch behind the front passenger seat. Put there "a few days earlier" when Dad is cleaning the car???

LEFT THERE...

I don't know the exact pistol involved, but I doubt it was a cocked & locked (or hammer down) 1911A1. The 1911 design doesn't make accidental discharge entirely impossible (and 5yr olds are capable of some amazing things) but it does require more things to happen at the same time than a different design, such as the Glock.

So, loaded pistol, round chambered, safety off (or no safety), not just unsecured, but within easy reach in a place where it was known a child was going to be.

I wonder how many times Mom, Dad, (or anyone else?) got in and out of that vehicle in the "few days" between Dad putting the pistol there, and the accident happening?
Civil law can punish him with fines and jail time. (plus the costs of the legal system), and that MAY teach him the needed lesson well enough. Every time he sees his son for the rest of his life will remind him as well.

Is that enough? The petty, spiteful Drill Sargent part of me would have him in full battle rattle, pack loaded with 40-50lbs of sand, holding the EMPTY pistol above his head with both hands, double-timing around the parade ground shouting "I FORGOT IT WAS THERE" from dawn to dusk, the process repeating for a few days, THEN having him face legal charges.

I know our legal system won't allow that to be done to a civilian, but I can't help but think it would be a "teaching moment", and a first step in the process of paying for his "forgetfulness".

kmw1954 · January 12, 2019, 04:35 PM

The responsibility.

I have been commenting lately that these types of incidents are no different than those that get behind the wheel while being drunk. During my life I have lost both my father and my eldest brother to drunk drivers in separate incidents. I am sure those drivers never believed they would kill someone. Yet they did. In spite of that history just last week I got woken up by a phone call from my daughter. She needed a ride home from the police station because her friend had been arrested for DUI.

For what it is worth in the gun responsibility conversation as I said I've lost 2 family members to drunk drivers but I've yet to lose a member from bring shot. It still comes down to being responsible for one's self and ones actions.

reynolds357 · January 13, 2019, 01:29 PM

I look at this the same way I looked at an ATV accident I worked when we were at the Sheriffs office. A young boy got killed riding on a 4wheeler with his dad. Technically by the letter of the law, we could have charged the dad with homicide by vehicle. We (law enforcement and District Attorney) decided the prosecution would be pointless. The man had already suffered enough and would continue to suffer his entire life. The only thing he did legally wrong was operate an off road vehicle on the road. Everyone else here does it as well. They just happen to own farms and say it's "farm use."

Glenn E. Meyer · January 13, 2019, 01:44 PM

Does the prosecution of the parent serve as a deterrent for others?

Is just watching an upset parent on social media serve the same purpose?

Is feeling bad about an action sufficient to avoid legal consequences? If it were someone else's child that you did this to and felt bad, would regret suffice in that situation?

reynolds357 · January 13, 2019, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Does the prosecution of the parent serve as a deterrent for others?

Is just watching an upset parent on social media serve the same purpose?

Is feeling bad about an action sufficient to avoid legal consequences? If it were someone else's child that you did this to and felt bad, would regret suffice in that situation?

When you see abuse day in and day out, it creates a sense of compassion in you when someone tries and just makes a mistake. Jurors also have compassion and think, "could that happen to me?".

**JohnKSa** · January 13, 2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

When you see abuse day in and day out, it creates a sense of compassion in you when someone tries and just makes a mistake.

I have to admit I'm ambivalent about this type of punishment. I would like to think that it creates publicity, perhaps acts as a deterrent for future problems, and affirms the value of innocent life, but part of me wonders if someone who is clueless enough to put their child in mortal danger is going to sit up and take notice of a news story talking about the potential penalties for that kind of negligence. And, of course, it's hard to imagine suffering a loss like this and then being punished on top of it.

So far I've come down on the side of punishment, but I can see the other side of it too.

kmw1954 · January 13, 2019, 05:20 PM

So how much compassion does the criminally negligent deserve?

My brother's two sons didn't receive much compassion when their father was run down by a drunk driver.

reynolds357 · January 13, 2019, 05:28 PM

Quote:

So how much compassion does the criminally negligent deserve?

My brother's two sons didn't receive much compassion when their father was run down by a drunk driver.

Drunk driving is not negligence, it is wilful.
The answer to your question would lie with the prosecutor and maybe ultimately a jury.
If it is OK for a mother to murder unborn babies in this nation, then I am not one who would convict a parent of homicide for the accidental death of their child, unless the circumstances were extreme.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 14, 2019, 11:17 AM

We are done. We are not going into an abortion debate as relevant to this situation.

January 13, 2019, 01:44 PM	#79
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Does the prosecution of the parent serve as a deterrent for others? Is just watching an upset parent on social media serve the same purpose? Is feeling bad about an action sufficient to avoid legal consequences? If it were someone else's child that you did this to and felt bad, would regret suffice in that situation? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 14, 2019, 11:17 AM	#84
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	We are done. We are not going into an abortion debate as relevant to this situation. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 12, 2019, 04:35 PM	#77
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	The responsibility. I have been commenting lately that these types of incidents are no different than those that get behind the wheel while being drunk. During my life I have lost both my father and my eldest brother to drunk drivers in separate incidents. I am sure those drivers never believed they would kill someone. Yet they did. In spite of that history just last week I got woken up by a phone call from my daughter. She needed a ride home from the police station because her friend had been arrested for DUI. For what it is worth in the gun responsibility conversation as I said I've lost 2 family members to drunk drivers but I've yet to lose a member from bring shot. It still comes down to being responsible for one's self and ones actions.

January 13, 2019, 01:29 PM	#78
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I look at this the same way I looked at an ATV accident I worked when we were at the Sheriffs office. A young boy got killed riding on a 4wheeler with his dad. Technically by the letter of the law, we could have charged the dad with homicide by vehicle. We (law enforcement and District Attorney) decided the prosecution would be pointless. The man had already suffered enough and would continue to suffer his entire life. The only thing he did legally wrong was operate an off road vehicle on the road. Everyone else here does it as well. They just happen to own farms and say it's "farm use."

January 13, 2019, 05:20 PM	#82
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	So how much compassion does the criminally negligent deserve? My brother's two sons didn't receive much compassion when their father was run down by a drunk driver.