4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons

[rcollier]

I carry a Ruger LC9s and looking at going to a Sig 320 sub. Desantis IWB tuckable, Sticky holster and going to order a Muddy River kydex as well as I search for the holy grail of holsters.
I carry 4 O’clock mostly but am considering switching to appendix, mainly as I am not completely (physically) comfortable at that position.
There is a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and wanted to get some opinions pro and con for the switch?

[FLJim]

<looks at waist while seated...> If I tried appendix carry the it would have to be an awfully short-barrelled pistol. I really don't see how people do it and manage to sit down and sit up straight.

[Pahoo]

Consider 10-11 O’clock position. ……..

Be Safe !!!

[lunger]

4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons

Cons---
Pointed at something I really wouldn't want to shoot
Doesn't work well for old fat guys like me

[Theohazard]

Appendix carry is an acquired taste. But if you want maximum concealment — especially when bent over or sitting down — then it’s your best option. The issue is finding a holster that allows the gun to ride high enough that it goes with your upper body, otherwise it will dig into your lower body when you bend over.

The most concealable appendix holsters have a “wing” or some other protrusion near the trigger guard area that pushes against your belt and helps to angle the grip of the gun toward your body. Some also have a “bump” near the bottom of the holster that pushes against your body and angles the top of the gun towards you. Both of these together can make a huge difference in concealment. My Glock 19 conceals better in an appendix Tenicor Velo holster than my Glock 42 does in an appendix G-Code INCOG holster because the latter has neither of those features.

The first appendix holster I ever used that had the bump and the wing (for lack of better names) was a Raven Eidolon with all the optional add-on features. It was a good holster as far as concealment and I was able to conceal my Glock 19 no problem, but it was bulky. The Tenicor Velo is similar to the Eidolon in terms of having a bump and a wing, but it vastly improves the design and makes both of those features integral to the Kydex. In my opinion, the Velo is the best appendix holster on the market if you need maximum concealment but you still want comfort.

[Theohazard]

As for the safety issue of appendix carry, keep a few things in mind. First, make sure it’s a good Kydex holster that retains the gun well and protects the trigger. If you’re good on that, then the only thing keeping you from shooting yourself is you. Draw your gun with your finger indexed along the top of your trigger guard on the frame of the gun and don’t put your finger inside the trigger guard until your gun is pointing at what you intend to shoot. If you do that, then there’s no way you can shoot yourself on the draw. The problem is, a very large percentage of “experienced” gun owners I come across still have terrible trigger discipline. Appendix carry isn’t good for those people...

After those considerations, the other area of danger is reholstering the gun. Again, having good trigger discipline is imperative. Also, make sure you’re not snagging your shirt during the reholster process. I actually tuck my off-hand thumb under my waistband and push the bottom of the holster away from my body during reholstering. That way if the unthinkable happens and somehow my shirt snags my trigger and pulls it (extremely unlikely since I’m looking down and watching the whole process), then the gun will discharge through my pants and into the ground.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by rcollier

I carry a Ruger LC9s and looking at going to a Sig 320 sub. Desantis IWB tuckable, Sticky holster and going to order a Muddy River kydex as well as I search for the holy grail of holsters.
I carry 4 O’clock mostly but am considering switching to appendix, mainly as I am not completely (physically) comfortable at that position.
There is a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and wanted to get some opinions pro and con for the switch?

Another stereotypical "old fat white guy" here. I've experimented a little bit with appendix. I'd have to work at it, and spend multiple hundreds trying holsters, to get that magic sweet spot where it was actually do-able and comfortable.

I carry 4 O’clock mostly but am considering switching to appendix, mainly as I am not completely (physically) comfortable at that position.

3 o'clock, right on the hip or slightly ahead, is what I find works best for me.

[OhioGuy]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

Appendix carry is an acquired taste. But if you want maximum concealment — especially when bent over or sitting down — then it’s your best option. The issue is finding a holster that allows the gun to ride high enough that it goes with your upper body, otherwise it will dig into your lower body when you bend over.

The most concealable appendix holsters have a “wing” or some other protrusion near the trigger guard area that pushes against your belt and helps to angle the grip of the gun toward your body. Some also have a “bump” near the bottom of the holster that pushes against your body and angles the top of the gun towards you. Both of these together can make a huge difference in concealment. My Glock 19 conceals better in an appendix Tenicor Velo holster than my Glock 42 does in an appendix G-Code INCOG holster because the latter has neither of those features.

The first appendix holster I ever used that had the bump and the wing (for lack of better names) was a Raven Eidolon with all the optional add-on features. It was a good holster as far as concealment and I was able to conceal my Glock 19 no problem, but it was bulky. The Tenicor Velo is similar to the Eidolon in terms of having a bump and a wing, but it vastly improves the design and make both of those features integral to the Kydex. In my opinion, the Velo is the best appendix holster on the market if you need maximum concealment but you still want comfort.

^^^ THIS ^^^

JM Custom Kydex makes awesome AIWB holsters, if you're willing to pay $100 and wait 4-6 weeks (unless you have one of their quick-ship models like Glock, S&W and some CZ).

With this holster, I can conceal a CZ P-07 (comparable to Glock 19 or any standard compact double stack) with just a loose-fitting shirt. I'm 5'10", 185 lb. Try putting that on my hip and it's "print city" for me. Even with the best holster, it still makes an obvious lump that prints badly when I bend forward.

When I carry my Walther PPS in a similar holster (same brand), it disappears with even the longest magazine. You could hide the new Glock 48, for instance, easily under a polo shirt. Pick a Glock 43 or Shield? Forget about it! It's invisible.

So I think AIWB carry is the best for concealment, although not necessarily for comfort.

[HighValleyRanch]

Appendix is my favorite position!
Advantages, You can see if people are checking you out for printing, you don't have to worry about someone coming up from behind and grabbing your weapon,
you can protect the weapon better in force on force, you can still present even if you are on your back, and it the most natural for draw for me.

Much depends on your body type. If you have a "larger" midsection it might not be as comfortable. I'm lean, so anything around my 3 oclock hits my hip bone.
4 o'clock is OK, but prints a little more.

You might also have to choose the weapon around the desired method of carry, i.e double action only, hammer fired, revolver, etc.

As someone pointed out, a short barrel might be more importants that a longer grip as the grip is more parallel to the body.

I'm carrying my Shield in a Raven Vanguard minimalist trigger holster. Simple, very thin and effective. The pistol is holstered into the "holster" before IWB and comes out easily with a good pull.

[CDW4ME]

If I carry AIWB its about 12:30 and a Glock 23 or even 22 conceals well under a loose fit untucked shirt, stripe, print, or plaid helps break any bulge.
Longer slide may be more comfortable, experiment.

If I carry IWB its about 3:00 with a generous forward cant, longer slide is better to keep the muzzle from digging into my hip, distribute pressure better.

I'm 6'1 about 210#

[T. O'Heir]

"...Appendix carry is an acquired taste..." Especially when most people don't know where one's appendix is located. It's not just in front of one's hip bone. It's closer to one's 'belly button'. Have the scar to prove it. snicker.
However, there is no "best" place for a holster. It goes where it feels right to you. Mind you, a plastic holster may never be 'comfortable' as they don't really form themselves to you.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...Appendix carry is an acquired taste..." Especially when most people don't know where one's appendix is located. It's not just in front of one's hip bone. It's closer to one's 'belly button'. Have the scar to prove it. snicker.

My wife just showed me where my appendix is; it’s actually farther away from the belly button than most people (including myself) seem to think it is. It lines up near the middle of the grip of my Glock 19.

By the way, she also said that there are several ways to make the incision(s) when removing an appendix, so your scar doesn’t necessarily line up exactly in the location where your appendix was.

[rodfac]

Cons:
1. Any appendix carry position I've seen seems to have the muzzle pointed at the femoral artery or my genitalia.
2. The draw movement, covers the same two points mentioned as well as most anyone to my left front.
3. Re-holstering during practice or in an actual defensive encounter again results in the muzzle covering parts of my anatomy as well as bystanders and seems to be prone to shirt tail/button and inadvertent finger/trigger interaction.
4. The telltale lump some object to with standard 3-4 o'clock OWB carry is equally as evident with Appendix carry for an adversary looking for a weapon.
5. With appendix carry, the draw movement results in an east to west type of muzzle sweep, necessitating a precise stop movement to align on target. With a hip carry draw, the muzzle sweeps upward allowing for more error but still getting hits where they count.

The pros on U-tube make appendix carry seem easy, and get good results with it...but do not make it a more concealable position and do nothing to address the above concerns. I carry on my right side at roughly the 3:30 position and have done so for almost 50 years now. It works and in my experience is a lot safer and easier to train for than appendix. YMMV, Rod

[OhioGuy]

To the points made about muzzle length:

I found over time that a longer muzzle (G19 or equivalent) actually rides more comfortably at around 1:00 position than a shorter one. This is because a shorter muzzle will dig into your pubic bone when you bend or sit, whereas the longer one frankly fills in the space between your thigh and the thing you don't want to shoot. For this reason, JM Custom Kydex makes all holsters to be about the same basic length. If you order one for a Shield or G43, you'll get one that's about the same length as a G19. If you put a small pad or wedge at the bottom of the muzzle, it fills in that space and keeps the grip from tending to flop forward over your belt, and also tilts the muzzle away from your body a bit.

The result feels a little bulkier but I find it to be more comfortable over a longer period of time, and it conceals better

[Ridgerunner665]

For some... Myself included.

Appendix carry is about complete concealment.

When I carry a small to midsize revolver (J frame up to SP101) there is no tell tale printing at all.... None... At all.

Strong side carry, even IWB, does not offer that level of concealment.... Not on me.

I'm 6 feet tall, 190 pounds and pretty lean and mean for a 46 year old guy... I stay in shape through my job, not a gym.

While appendix works great for me, I'm well aware that it won't work for everyone.

Some folks think appendix carry doesn't work for people with a gut... That is not always true either... The guy that taught my CCW class carried a Glock 30 at appendix, he had a pretty big gut, he was a retired undercover cop.... In causal clothes there was not even a hint of that Glock under his shirt....that class was in 1994, well before the current appendix carry fad.

[Ridgerunner665]

Also... I agree... A 3-4 inch barrel is well within reason for appendix carry.

Especially with polymer semi autos where most of the weight is in the grip.

On me, revolvers carry much better for appendix, I carry a 3 inch Ruger SP101.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by rodfac

Cons:
1. Any appendix carry position I've seen seems to have the muzzle pointed at the femoral artery or my genitalia.

Sure, while it’s secured in the holster. But if it’s a good quality Kydex holster that protects the trigger this isn’t an issue.

Originally Posted by rodfac

2. The draw movement, covers the same two points mentioned as well as most anyone to my left front.

The moment the muzzle leaves the holster it should begin moving on an upward arc towards the target. So unless your trigger discipline is terrible and you manage to pull the trigger during the fraction of a second where the trigger is exposed but the muzzle is still inside the holster body, this isn’t an issue. And if your muzzle covers anyone to either side of you during the draw then you’re doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by rodfac

3. Re-holstering during practice or in an actual defensive encounter again results in the muzzle covering parts of my anatomy as well as bystanders and seems to be prone to shirt tail/button and inadvertent finger/trigger interaction.

No, the muzzle should come in a straight downward arc from the target and shouldn’t point to either side. And if you use the reholstering technique I described in post #6 then the muzzle will never cover any part of your body until after it’s fully clicked into the holster.

Originally Posted by rodfac

4. The telltale lump some object to with standard 3-4 o'clock OWB carry is equally as evident with Appendix carry for an adversary looking for a weapon.

No, not unless you have a belly. For people who have a body type where their chest is larger than their waist, carrying with a well-designed appendix holster usually prints WAY less than 3-4 o’clock IWB carry. That’s the main reason why most of us who carry appendix do it: for the extra concealability. We’re willing to give up a little comfort for a more concealed carry gun. And if you pick the right holster, the loss of comfort is minimal.

Originally Posted by rodfac

5. With appendix carry, the draw movement results in an east to west type of muzzle sweep, necessitating a precise stop movement to align on target.

No. If you’re sweeping anyone to either side during an appendix draw, you’re doing it wrong.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I remember that I started off with 4 o'clock carry.

Then about 10 years ago, I had a job where I was constantly bending over to pick up boxes, wrap pallets, stock inventory, etc. So I needed a more concealed way of carry where I wouldn't be giving myself away.

I moved my P226, 220, 229, 228 to appendix in a Don Hume (at the time, leather was it) holster. Then when I'd leave work, I'd switch back over to 4 o'clock. Until one day, I stopped switching over and just left it that way.

I liked always having my weapon directly in front of me.

Afterwards when I worked at gun shops, ranges, training centers, and private security work, I'd carry 3 o'clock OWB and one spare gun appendix.

Now, as of about 5 months ago, I landed my first office desk job. 10 years later and appendix has stuck to me. I exclusively use T5 Custom Kydex and their "HitchHiker" for all my concealed carry needs.

Ranging from the P229, P226, P30L, Glock 19, and so on.

My attire is a button down and tactical slacks that don't look tactical. Dress shows and incognito Vertx EDC Ready bag which I put my snacks, medical equipment, hygienic items and many more things in. I make sure they see me taking out stuff like my tooth brush, a protein shake packet, a tuna snack, etc.

In the "tactical" pouch I have 3 spare mags, a fixed blade, a multi-tool, and many others.

Appendix also lets me wear my backpack comfortable around town without hindering my draw in any way, shape, or form.

If you need any pointers, PM me.

[Sharkbite]

Theo beat me to it. +1 to what he said.

Im not a big guy, 5’9” ~180. 34” waist, i carry a M&P 2.0 compact all day, every day at about 1 o’clock and it works just fine for concealing that gun on me.

The unlisted pro to AIWB carry is weapons retention in a scuffle. Not all fights start as gunfights. Its an unfortunate reality that sometimes its a physical assault that mus0t be handled WITHOUT the justification for “going to guns”.

AIWB allows me to retain the gun easier (with better leverage) then 3 or 4 o’clock, allows better retention techniques to be used, should i need them. Allows an easier draw from the ground (should i need it) when the fight goes there.

To draw from 3 oclock, you have to get your elbow behind your hip, try that when on your back, its not easy. 4oclock (and further back) just make it harder. Ive pressure tested it in the gym with my BJJ coach and a red gun. AIWB was better in all aspects vs a strong side hip carry when tied in with an assailant or on the ground.

Im not saying a gun is the best option when in a ground fight, but this is a gun forum, so i’ll play that angle.

So, PRO’s
Conceals better (as long as you dont have a big spare tire around your middle)
Allows larger (more effective) guns to be carried
Allows you to surreptitiously get almost a complete firing grip
Allows draw times that rival or beat hip carry
Allows great weapons retention standing or grounded
Allows easier draws when seat belted in your car

Cons
Not for beginners. MUST have habituated all aspects of safe gun handling and weapon presentation.
Pretty much have to use an IWB holster.


Im sure there are points ive left out, but thats my take on AIWB

[IdaD]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Appendix is my favorite position!
Advantages, You can see if people are checking you out for printing, you don't have to worry about someone coming up from behind and grabbing your weapon,
you can protect the weapon better in force on force, you can still present even if you are on your back, and it the most natural for draw for me.

Much depends on your body type. If you have a "larger" midsection it might not be as comfortable. I'm lean, so anything around my 3 oclock hits my hip bone.
4 o'clock is OK, but prints a little more.

You might also have to choose the weapon around the desired method of carry, i.e double action only, hammer fired, revolver, etc.

As someone pointed out, a short barrel might be more importants that a longer grip as the grip is more parallel to the body.

I'm carrying my Shield in a Raven Vanguard minimalist trigger holster. Simple, very thin and effective. The pistol is holstered into the "holster" before IWB and comes out easily with a good pull.

I also carry my Shield in the Raven Vanguard 2 and it disappears under a t-shirt. It also gets bonus points because you can load and unload your plus one with the "holster" in place over the trigger guard. I also triple stack the deck with a thumb safety but I know I'm in the minority there.

I'm 6' and about 175, and appendix is the only way I feel like I can conceal well. I also feel like I have the gun more under my exclusive control when I have it AIWB. With the setup above I can both walk around and sit comfortably for long periods. .

[rcollier]

A lot of excellent info!!
Thanks. I am still relatively new to CC so for now I will continue my 4 O’clock carry position.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by rcollier

A lot of excellent info!!
Thanks. I am still relatively new to CC so for now I will continue my 4 O’clock carry position.

Yeah, I recommend only making the switch to appendix carry if you have a specific need for it. For me, it was wanting extra concealability when wearing just a T-shirt, especially when bending over to pick up my daughter, who was a toddler at the time.

[Bilbo463]

I’ve been carrying at 11 o’clock for over 10 years, and quite comfortably I might add. Generally speaking, I stick to single action pistols (i.e. commander size 1911’s with Ambi thumb safeties and on occasion a factory stock Browning Hi Power). I prefer the added margin of safety a manual thumb safety provides while reholstering. You must be very careful and slow while placing a striker fired pistol back in it’s holster for obvious reasons. Like most folks, I did a lot of experimenting with carry position before settling on appendix carry. My holsters are all made by J M Custom Holsters.

[gnystrom]

1. I have the build for AIWB carry.
2. It allows me to draw faster from more positions, ie. driving searbelted, sitting, cover garment, etc.
Choice of gun and holster very important.
Currently, this works very well for me.
P365/Vedder LightTuck.

[Carmady]

P365/Vedder LightTuck

gnystrom, does the claw make noticeable improvement? Any drawbacks?