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Old December 16, 2018, 05:02 PM   #1
sirgilligan
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What have we learned in 10 years

What have we learned over the past 10 years? Take yourself back to 2008.

I posted this on another forum and within 4 posts it had turned into a rant about voting. No one shared any wisdom about their firearms and other choices. Maybe this forum will go better.

The firearm industry grew from $19 billion in 2008 to $31 billion in 2011.

Some events to help you remember:
July 2012 shooting at theatre showing Bat Man.
Sept 2012 Benghazi Attack
Dec 2012 shooting in Sandy Hook
Jan 2015 Charlie Hebdo Shooting France

Some things that affected this community directly:
The Great 22 LR Ammo Depression
The difficulty finding primers and powders.
The price surge on anything we thought might get banned, including magazines, certain types of firearms, suppressors, types of stocks, etc.
The difficulty in finding ammo for 9mm, .223/5.56, .308/7.62

What have you learned? What would you have done differently? What are you doing right now?

I learned that buying the common NATO calibers was cheap in good times, and very troublesome in times of concern. I was able to buy .30-06 any day I wanted over the past 10 years. Not so with my NATO calibered firearms. So, the advice to buy NATO because it will always be available is not what I experienced. Of course there is no worries for those prepared, but everyone has to start some where on some day and there is a young 21 year old right now trying to figure out what they want to purchase. What would you share with those just starting out? Which general purpose hunting rifle? Which handgun for protection? Those kinds of things. I would recommend a .30-06, a 9mm, and a .357 Magnum.

Here we are in a lull so to speak, and I find myself a little bit uninterested in things. I am tired, a bit mentally fatigued so to speak. But that is when my mind says, "Today is the day to prepare for the rainy day coming."

So, I ask yet another question. With prices and supplies being the most reasonable I have seen in years what are you doing? Maybe you are going out and shooting some of that $60.00 22 LR ammo and replacing it with new stock? Maybe you are gifting that $1800 AR to a son or daughter and getting over the apparent loss on the value and buying something you consider better for less? Maybe it is time on these long winter days to take inventory and see what you have, and make a plan to cycle through some things?

As the pendulum surely swings, it will swing back to 2012 conditions one day, what can we do to not have a panic buying spree again?

I know lots of questions, but I have a lot of questions on my mind right now. "It's time to make hay while the sun is shining"
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Old December 16, 2018, 05:36 PM   #2
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As individuals who value our freedoms and especially our rights to own firearms for personal liberty and security, we have learned a lot but at the same time, the human mind has a tendency to forget once a tragedy or episode of hardship is past, so we can do a refresher:

Evil can strike any time, anywhere.

No matter how much we tell ourselves that we are prepared to react in times of danger, when the time really comes to test us, some of us will be overwhelmed.

Only constant training, constant vigilance, and constant honing of one's skills can prevent Point No. 2 from happening.

There are some individuals who are born warriors. Individuals like Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff who are not police officers or soldiers but will put their own lives on the line for the sake of their fellow citizens. Let us take a long look at ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves: Do WE have what it takes?

ANY weapon in the right hands will be an effective weapon. (Texas man makes 137 yard shot with .357 Magnum revolver to save the life of a State Trooper)

It is NOT a good idea to take your rights and liberties for granted. Acts of state-sponsored terror and depredations against mankind are still bring committed all over the world.

It is NOT a good idea to be an optimist. Prepare for the worst and train for the worst. It only takes seconds for the world around you to go all to hell.

If there is a skill besides firearms skills that may help you survive, invest the time and effort to learn it. Whether it be archery, reloading, close quarters combat, CPR, or other forms of emergency medicine.

And last but not least: PRACTICE with the firearm/ammunition combination of your choice. Weapons will not save you on their own. You use your own skills to employ those weapons effectively.

Everybody enjoy a happy and SAFE holiday season.
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Old December 16, 2018, 05:52 PM   #3
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Okay, I'll play.

Truthfully it was the Great Ammo Drought that was the most significant moment for me. People were buying all ammunition, even .30-30. What I mean is that the ammo shelves, all of them, everywhere in PHX, were emptied. Totally and completely emptied.

I wasn't a reloader then, so within a week or so it was impossible to find any ammo to feed any of my guns. I vividly remember arriving at my local Sportsman's Warehouse at 6:00 am on a Saturday and waiting in a line more than 300 people deep for the store to open at 8:00a. Then being told that you could only buy two boxes of any caliber, and that there wasn't any .22LR available.

This was the situation for weeks, or months.

I made a decision to learn to reload. Unfortunately, a lot of people had the same thought I guess, and by the time I'd bought a press and most of the requisite tools/accessories, both powder and primers were in short supply.

In fact, the only powder I could find at first was an 8-lb. jug of something called IMR 8208 XBR, which I was darned if I knew what it was for. There were three boxes of CCI Small Rifle Primers, and nothing else. I bought all of it and then went home to figure out if I could reload any of my calibers with the stuff.

Thankfully, IMR 8208 XBR was pretty good for making .223 rem ammunition. Of course, I had no idea just how much work went into making rifle rounds, which might have been a good thing, or I might not have even tried to figure it out.

I did eventually become adept at making .223 rem, and by that time I'd put together the materials to make .38 spl/.357 mag and .44 spl/mag. Imagine my relief when I discovered just how easy it was to make .38 rounds. I made my first 1,000 in about three days, just because I was so happy at how simple it was.

Anyway, if I could go back in time and talk to my slightly younger self pre-Sandy Hook, or even further to my 21 year-old self, I'd tell him:

Learn to reload. Get lessons to shorten the learning curve. Buy a quality turret press (you're going to like the Redding T-7, kid).

At some point, get back-ups for your essential equipment, such as scales, powder drop, decapping pins, spindle rods, etc. Things break.

Buy powder in 8-lb. jugs. Have at least two of them per essential caliber.

At least once a month go and buy two boxes of primers. Stack 'em deep.

Have at least two years' worth of projectiles per essential caliber stored up.

Keep at least 4,000 rds of .22 LR on hand.

Get a .22LR pistol and a rifle. Cheap fun/training when there's another ammo/powder/primer shortage.

Get an AR-15. It's a good, inexpensive utilitarian rifle that can serve a wide variety of purposes. And you're going to like prairie dog shooting. A lot. Like 2,000 rds a year downrange a lot.

Take classes on how to properly use and maintain your AR-15.

Invest in classes in general over buying new guns.


Right now, that's about it. Probably think of a few dozen more things later. But that covers the basics, I think.

Just thought of another one. Become as familiar as possible for a layman with the laws in my state concerning SD/HD shooting. Don't be an idiot, but don't allow hesitation to get me or mine hurt/killed.

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Old December 16, 2018, 06:33 PM   #4
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Thank you Rachen and Rangerrich99. This is the sharing I was hoping for.
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Old December 16, 2018, 07:06 PM   #5
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The Great 22 LR Ammo Depression
There was always 22LR available, just not the dirt-cheap practice stuff and maybe not at the big sporting goods stores. But if you looked around, it was there. We really shot ourselves in the foot with that one--the price took a LONG time to come back down after people stopped panicking. It's still not down to pre-panic levels.
Quote:
I learned that buying the common NATO calibers was cheap in good times, and very troublesome in times of concern.
Same deal. You could always get 9mm, just not the really cheap stuff, and maybe not at Wally World.

What it boils down to is that if you want really cheap ammo, when there is a panic, it dries up, forcing you to buy more expensive ammo if you don't keep your own stock on hand. That more expensive ammo could be FMJ practice ammo in less common calibers or defensive ammo in common NATO calibers, the caliber wasn't the real difference, the real difference was the price.
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...what can we do to not have a panic buying spree again?
Nothing. People are going to panic and when they do, nothing will convince them that they are acting irrationally. Go back and read some of the threads from that timeframe and it's glaringly apparent. People were absolutely convinced of all kinds of conspiracies--very few were willing to accept the reality that the shortages were generated TOTALLY and ENTIRELY by buying panics.

Because I know that panics are going to happen, I keep a significant stock of ammo on hand in the calibers I want to shoot. I buy ammo in bulk when it is cheap and don't buy it when it is expensive. That won't protect me in the event of a ban, but so far it's been good enough to weather the shortages caused by panics.
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Old December 16, 2018, 07:16 PM   #6
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I remember seeing shelves full of 40 S&W during the big 22 shortage and a 9 mm to be had. Learn how to reload and stock pile the necessities
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Old December 17, 2018, 12:59 PM   #7
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I learned to always have a big pile of ammunition in my utility room
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Old December 17, 2018, 01:17 PM   #8
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For a long time, I just stopped buying ammo. If I didn't have it, I didn't shoot it and due to personal life that happened during that time, I didn't shoot a whole lot anyway.

It's better to have loaded ammo on hand than to have reloading components but if you can't buy ammo because it doesn't exist, it's still a good idea to have components, of course. If you have to bug out, carrying a cache of loading supplies and equipment is far more problematic than carrying a few boxes of hunting ammo that you loaded up a few weeks or months ago. Under otherwise "normal" circumstances, of course, loading your own is better than not having any ammo.

There was a time when W231 was simply not available at any price. When I finally did find it, though, it was in an 8 lb jug and I still haven't touched it because I just haven't had time. During the W231 drought, I bought a 4 lb jug of VV which I wanted to use for .45ACP but evidently, I looked up the wrong powder while I was in the store and once I got home, realized I couldn't find the load data for that powder any more. I still don't know what mistake I made but at least I can use that powder for 9mm.

Panic buying, I guess.

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Old December 17, 2018, 01:28 PM   #9
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I reload. Primers and powder are important for stock, as Rick said. Stack those deep, or be prepared to order a decent sized lot as soon as you see trouble looming. Projectiles are somewhat easier to find, at least for a while, and if you're willing to shoot cast bullets you can always order from Missouri at a decent price. May take a few extra weeks due to demand, but Missouri and Dardas (no longer in business, but was a fine company and product) did not raise their prices more than what the base price of their raw materials was raised during the panics. If you're determined to use jacketed projectiles, you need to stock up on those as well, but I found they lagged behind powders and primers in scarcity (except .223 range fodder, they sold out quick).

Casting. Learn to cast. Basic casting materials will be my Christmas gift this year. The primary reason is to feed Mil Surp rifles affordably, but it will be nice to be able to cast pistol bullets as well. Source your scrap lead. I've been asking around tire shops here for years, as I've always thought I may cast one day. Many had already promised out their scrap. I recently found one close buy for dirt cheap. 130# of WWs for 20 bucks. I've sorted out about 38#s of lead so far, and probably 10#s of useless scrap. At that ratio I'll still be doing great.

Consider shooting less popular, but still common, calibers. .40S&W practice ammo was available in most places during the great panics, at semi affordable prices. Likewise, .30-06 and .270 were available and mostly affordable.

As the panic grows in length even odd calibers are harder to find as manufacturers switch production to keep up with the .223, 9mm, .308 demand. Same with reloading projectiles. Even .277 bullets were out of stock everywhere by the end of the last one.

Back to reloading, become comfortable using odd component combinations. I got into using 700x for a lot of pistol because, well, it was available. I could usually poke around and find HS6. Win 760/H414 could usually be found. Basically all of the old formula powders that continue to be in production, but really aren't super popular because there are "better" options for handloaders. Power Pistol was virtually non-existent in stock for a long time. Varget for rifle? Good luck finding it.

Lastly, if you like shooting .22lr I would recommend keeping a good bit of it on hand. Like upwards of 5k rounds. Now is the time to buy, too.


EDIT: Lastly Lastly, I have learned that it is extremely unlikely for any REAL gun control laws to be passed at the national level so our panic is unnecessary. States have done some real damage to the 2A though.
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Old December 17, 2018, 10:13 PM   #10
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Consider shooting less popular, but still common, calibers. .40S&W practice ammo was available in most places during the great panics, at semi affordable prices. Likewise, .30-06 and .270 were available and mostly affordable.
Invest in some guns that are chambered in straight-wall cartridges. .357's, .44 Rem. Mag, .45-70, .45 LC etc...

You can use black powder and black powder substitutes to load those, as well as smokeless. A .454 Casull with a full case of Pyrodex is nothing to sneeze at either and in case there is a shortage of the regular powder or ammo that you use, you can break out the old smokers and still fill your dinner table and protect your home with ease and confidence.
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Old December 17, 2018, 10:30 PM   #11
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I reload. Primers and powder are important for stock, as Rick said. Stack those deep, or be prepared to order a decent sized lot as soon as you see trouble looming.
I will disagree; the time to order is BEFORE you see trouble looming - as in NOW before the Dems take control in January
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Old December 17, 2018, 11:07 PM   #12
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During the 08 panic, I almost switched to .40 cal and .45acp firearms because that’s what was still on the shelves. I never did lol.
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Old December 18, 2018, 01:19 AM   #13
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Like several other posters, I learned to keep at least 1 years worth of ammo in stock.
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Old December 18, 2018, 08:52 AM   #14
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Since I had over 200k rounds of loaded ammo in stock in over 300 different calibers , reloading components to reload what I had a least 4 times , over 20k of 22lr , It did not effect me at all .
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Old December 18, 2018, 09:46 AM   #15
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During all that glut through the years of that last admin., and even during the Clinton years when all the hoopla on the "assault weapons" ban presented itself (there was a bit of primer shortage then, too, at least in my area), I was fortunate enough to have what I figured I needed for my hunting, shooting and reloading purposes; I had enough on hand, and never got my shorts in a bunch about it. And I've always kept enough .22 ammo on hand (what I needed), but never thousands and thousands of rounds stashed. When I would come across some .22 shells, wherever I'd find them to be, I'd buy a couple of hundred rounds (if I could buy more than a box of 50 per day, what a bunch of crap that was), just because. There ALWAYS seemed to be .17 rimfire stuff available any time I went into any sporting goods store to check things. Never owned one, never will, just me. I've been very fortunate, I have what I need for all firearms purposes, and what I figure I need to keep them gassed up. Praise the Good Lord, I have the ammunition.

Here's what I think (I'll be 68 in a few months) about stuff today, for our up and coming youngsters...

If a young, responsible, legally aged concerned person who hasn't ever owned a firearm, and is considering exercising their 2nd amendment RIGHTS, that person should first take a certified firearms training course in their state of residence. Once in that class, that young, responsible and concerned person should ask as many questions about firearms and the safe use of them as that person could think of, and then ask some more. That new concerned person may not be able to get into reloading ammo right away, maybe even never would, but might want to have what I think would be a good, basic, small arsenal in their permanent place of residency.

A Ruger 10/22 (maybe scoped, depending on eyesight), an extra magazine, and a good supply of ammo.

A shotgun, 12 or 20 ga. I would suggest an 870 Express (though a Wingmaster would be nice...) with choke tubes, in 3" mag.
and a good supply of steel and lead shells. #2 in steel, and #4 or 5 in lead. Mossberg M500s are good, too.

A good rifle, and depending on where one lives, I'd suggest a good 30-30 lever gun, or a 30-06 bolt gun, and a good supply of ammo for the choice. Scope on a rifle is what I need these days, but young eyes may able to be fine with open sights.

A good .22 pistol, and a good semi auto 9mm or .45 a.c.p. when one is able to afford them (and ammo, of course). .22 pistol (or rifle) use is still wonderful, economic practice these days, anyway. Yeah, buy some more .22 shells; wonderously available these days!

A decent flintlock rifle in .45 caliber, using a black powder, patched round ball load. I think this firearm, and learning the care and feeding of it, is almost essential (IMO). While powder can still be purchased through the mail, and really, not that terribly expensive (2 or 3fg standard GOEX) considering these days, it's one firearm that's accurate, and doesn't need primers. Lead can still be found fairly easily, and casting round balls is quite simple. A cheap, but very good Lee mould, a lead dipper of some sort, a small steel pot and a campfire is all one needs to make bullets. Patching material, in a pinch, can be used out of any natural fibered material, or whatever necessity might require. If one can master shooting a flintlock accurately, that person can shoot just about anything accurately. Studying the history of our country using that firearm when it was "state of the art" of that time, is good for that young person, too. Also, and though I wouldn't attempt to do it at this time, there are those that make their own B.P. I do have a recipe, but have never pursued that project; hope I never have to...

I think young people in college, along with those on the move finding employment and not being really settled anywhere, might have it tough to keep any kind of "small arsenal" legally with them (IMO). Geeze, but the "out of state" laws that need to be understood to keep out of trouble? My, my... One most certainly has to/should know the law these days on traveling out of one's home state (even there!) with firearms. Acquiring and responsibly keeping a basic, small arsenal, along with safe ammo storage and having a permanent base of operations is certainly big these days for young folks; firearms ownership will always be, and always has been, a big responsibility; even bigger these days with the Pandora's Box of the internet and social media. God Bless America, and all of our young folks, especially.
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Old December 18, 2018, 10:00 AM   #16
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I will disagree; the time to order is BEFORE you see trouble looming - as in NOW before the Dems take control in January
Pretty funny...any potential law passed by the Dems in the House has to get thru Senate(unlikely) and then to POTUS...if he vetos(which is likely), then need
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To pass a bill over the president's objections requires a two-thirds vote in each Chamber
Don't think the sky is falling..BTW..Bush 2 signed more 'anti-gun' legislation than Obama did..
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Old December 18, 2018, 10:50 AM   #17
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We have too many RINOs in the Senate to assuage me of their real intentions.
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Old December 18, 2018, 03:28 PM   #18
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I typically have a personal policy of never replying to a thread until I have read ALL the replies because I don't care to post my take when it is merely a repeat of someone else's however my work schedule in this holiday season eliminates my free time.

I just wanted to say two main things. First is that for many or even most of us who have been gun guys for a few decades... the droughts are NOT new to us, so while the powder, primer and rimfire ammo drought was bad, it certainly wasn't a new experience. I learned that kind of event in Clinton's two terms. So while my approach was extremely guarded... I didn't really suffer, I just kind of changed my routines to allow for the dearth of some things.

The other thing that is relevant is that I find myself in (extremely!) varied personal financial situations from 1994 to 2008 to 2018 and believe you me, THAT is what rules the approach... far more than political scenarios and panic discussions in forums... discussions that FEED panics, IMO. For me, if the finances allow AND the price is good or better, I don't give a damn who is in office or what the news headlines say.
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Old December 18, 2018, 04:03 PM   #19
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For me, if the finances allow AND the price is good or better, I don't give a damn who is in office or what the news headlines say.
Absolutely..............
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Old December 19, 2018, 08:40 AM   #20
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We have too many RINOs in the Senate to assuage me of their real intentions.
Perhaps but the Dems don't 'take control' in January.
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Old December 19, 2018, 08:54 AM   #21
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Invest in some guns that are chambered in straight-wall cartridges. .357's, .44 Rem. Mag, .45-70, .45 LC etc...

You can use black powder and black powder substitutes to load those, as well as smokeless. A .454 Casull with a full case of Pyrodex is nothing to sneeze at either and in case there is a shortage of the regular powder or ammo that you use, you can break out the old smokers and still fill your dinner table and protect your home with ease and confidence.
Good advice, along with enjoying muzzleloaders. They never were my thing until semi-recently. I enjoy my smokepoles as much as my other firearms now. One day I will experiment with making that holy black. That plus casting (so long as I have enough lead on hand) will ensure that I can continue to shoot should there be long term shortages of components. The only thing to stockpile would be primers/caps
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Old December 19, 2018, 12:03 PM   #22
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I learned that whoever said Obama was going to take away my guns was lying. I also learned the people that said Trump supported gun rights was lying.

I learned to buy my guns now, on the cheap. Don't wait until a panic. And don't panic when their is one. People panicked in 2012...I know guys that spent 2-3x value on an AR that now just sits in their safe and isn't used.
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Old December 19, 2018, 12:15 PM   #23
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I’ve learned that these new and/or proposed gun laws and/or regulations aren’t about lowering violent crime rates... seems to me, they’re about setting legal booby-traps for people that aren’t necessarily violent nor prone to commit crimes.
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Old December 19, 2018, 01:10 PM   #24
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I learned that whoever said Obama was going to take away my guns was lying. I also learned the people that said Trump supported gun rights was lying.
Heck I knew that 9 years ago. Actually I had some semi-concerns until the republicans took the house after the 2010 mid-terms. Then I knew we were mostly safe from federal authoritarianism, at least in terms of gun control. A split government isn't a bad thing, despite the lamenting that "we can't get anything done." We are in a post-modern era in which not much else needs "doing." So politicians and pundits almost have to invent crisis in order to respond by "doing something." Likewise, I have always thought of Trump as an opportunist. If the winds shifted to a point that supporting gun control would favor him, he would.

Quote:
I learned to buy my guns now, on the cheap. Don't wait until a panic. And don't panic when their is one. People panicked in 2012...I know guys that spent 2-3x value on an AR that now just sits in their safe and isn't used.
Yup... if only I had the money too

Fortunately, most of the guns that interest me for future purchase likely won't be a target of gun control.
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Old December 19, 2018, 02:03 PM   #25
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A split government isn't a bad thing,...
I firmly believe, but rarely share that new legislation shouldn’t be easy, it should be rare to pass any new law or regulation especially at the federal level. Seem like many politicians and voters simply want to retaliate for the outcomes of past elections.
The hot button issues (not just gun control) that we are all well aware of will never be put to rest, only because politicians use the issues to gain and RETAIN support.
The country is simply evolving past the ancient bill of rights. Any and all existing and proposed gun regulations are violations of the second amendment as written. We gun owners are just pesky vestiges that our new nation wishes to shed. There’s been a swelling of gun ownership recently, but it is only temporary. The time to stand up for the bill of rights has long since passed. Not enough people have stood in the past, won’t happen going forward. What people are standing up and fighting for now is progressive ideas, not ideas from antiquity. The bill of rights is only used when it’s needed as a progressive weapon.
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