Training for Misfires

armed_preacher · August 22, 2009, 03:02 PM

I have a Taurus 24/7 OSS DS that I've put about 400 rounds through. The other day at the range I had my first mis-fire. I was so "startled" that I stopped to "analyze" the situation. They I collected myself, aimed, and pulled the trigger again. The round fired the second time.

When all you need do with a mis-fire is "pull trigger again," is there a way you can train for this, since it occurs so rarely? (unlike a mis-feed that needs cleared)

SoupieXX75 · August 22, 2009, 03:28 PM

Personally, I wouldn't train for misfires expecting the round to fire on a second trigger pull. The chances that it would fire on the second pull, are slim, therefore wasting (potentially) a critical amount of time. It would be better to perform SPORTS or more simply, "Slap, Rack, Bang".

Check to ensure mag is securely in the mag well, chamber the next round, fire. A good way to train for this, is to have some "snap caps", and have a friend load them into a mag with live rounds (this way, you don't know when they're coming). When you hit the snap cap, it will be a fail to fire, so you then become familiar with clearing the misfire.

Just my two cents.

Xyas · August 22, 2009, 05:10 PM

Agreed with the above poster, I'd focus more on slap, rack, BANG! Practice this over and over until you can do it fast and efficiently...and pray your gun doesn't fail in a life or death situation.

ChileVerde1 · August 22, 2009, 08:19 PM

Always train for misfires. During training it's common for me to load snap caps into my magazines during certain sesions to practice clearing malfunctions. You should also practice clearing stovepipes, double feeds, failures to extract, etc... by setting them up with snap caps (inert ammo of course) and then clearing them as fast as you can while remaining conscious of any threat. I'd take the live stuff out of the room when doing these drills. Also practice reloading and clearinj malfunctions one-handed by hooking yout rear sight blade on your belt, your jeans pocket, or on your boot heal while knealing. All these things will keep you in the fight and the faster the better!!

Phoebe · August 22, 2009, 08:27 PM

ChiliVerde, does slap, rack, clear a snap cap?

I don't understand how those things work.

I have some, but haven't used them. Someone told me I should ask the RO to load my mag for me, with random snap caps, but I haven't tried that yet.

**JohnKSa** · August 22, 2009, 08:46 PM

Yes, tap/rack/bang will clear a misfire, a snap cap or a dummy round.

A snap cap/dummy round is an object made to the proper dimensions of a cartridge in the chambering it is designed to work in. What distinguishes a snap cap from a dummy round is that a snap cap also includes a mechanism for cushioning the blow of the firing pin during dryfire practice.

What a snap cap does during practice at the range is it allows you to see whether you are flinching or not when you pull the trigger. Normally recoil obscures a flinch, but since the snap cap won't fire, it lets the flinch "shine through". And since you don't know which round is the snap cap you won't be ready for it. Once you know you've got a flinch you can get to work curing it, but the first step is finding out that you have one.

T. O'Heir · August 23, 2009, 02:35 AM

The one good thing about the shooting games(IPSC/IDPA) is that you learn to do IA(Immediate Action) drills. Pulling the trigger again doesn't work with all pistols.

scottaschultz · August 23, 2009, 04:47 AM

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

Learn it, know it, live it!

Scott

SoupieXX75 · August 23, 2009, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

Learn it, know it, live it!

+1!

Great clip! That's a life or death skill!

Tamara · August 23, 2009, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armed preacher

When all you need do with a mis-fire is "pull trigger again," is there a way you can train for this, since it occurs so rarely?

Yes. Since it occurs so rarely, ignore it and treat it like any other malf. Clear it and keep shooting. You don't want to be standing there like a duck in thunder, playing shadetree gunsmith, diagnosing problems on a two-way pistol range. Clear it and keep shooting.

Nnobby45 · August 23, 2009, 06:36 AM

Quote:

When all you need do with a mis-fire is "pull trigger again," is there a way you can train for this, since it occurs so rarely? (unlike a mis-feed that needs cleared)

Because pulling the trigger on the only misfire you've ever had worked that time, don't get carried away thinking that's all you have to do.

Pulling the trigger doesn't always work on the same primer that just misfired. Combine that with the fact that some "misfires" involve no round in the chamber, then you can see the reasons for learning a simple malfunction drill, which will cure most reasons the gun didn't work without having to stop and analyze.

Best way to practice is with dummy rounds when you don't know when they're coming. In Farnum's class we were required to clear the problem while moving laterally.

The double feed is one malfunction not cleared by the tap, rack, and shoot drill, since it requires locking the slide back and reinserting a fresh mag. (with most guns). Learn that one, too.

armed_preacher · August 23, 2009, 08:38 AM

So I have this 24/7 with "dbl strike" capability and I'm not supposed to use it? I thought that's why it is there. Especially on a carry gun.

ChileVerde1 · August 23, 2009, 09:33 AM

Kayla-

Yep that will clear a snap cap. Snap caps ar not just for dry firing they can be a valuable training aid. You can load your own, staggered in your mag at the range with live rounds and you won't remember where the "dud" is then execute a tap-rack-bang. Like I said, you can also use them to "stage" other types of malfunctions that are not cleared by a tap-rack-bang, for example, a double feed or failure to extract. Place a snap cap into the chamber of your weapon with the slide locked back and then depress the slide release after inserting a fresh magazine with snap caps creating the malfunction when the round coming out of the mag hits the round round already in the chamber.

Place the weapon back into your duty holster, draw your weapon and clear the malfunction. This malfunction requires you to extract the magazine with your fingers ( somtimes your nails), drop it to the floor, and then slam the slide back and forth until the stuck round is extracted. Then load a fresh mag snap caps and fire simulating being back in the fight!!

Again when I do this I keep all live ammo in another room!!!! These drills are taught at many LEO Academy's basic firearms courses.

Nnobby45 · August 23, 2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

So I have this 24/7 with "dbl strike" capability and I'm not supposed to use it? I thought that's why it is there. Especially on a carry gun.

I don't know of a trigger system designed just for "second strike" capability, though some have the capability and some folks may consider that when buying one.

Second Strike" works for only one type of malfunction. A bad primer or light firining pin hit, with no guarantee it will fire the second time. Some may wish to gamble that it will fire with a second pull. If not, they're behind the curve when they start the proper proceedure to get the gun working by quickly seating the magazine and getting a fresh round in the chamber--if there was one there to begin with. The TRB drill will also clear the smoke stack malfunction.

pax · August 23, 2009, 11:03 AM

Nnobby told you the straight dope, preacher.

You might want to check out these pictorials:

www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/misfeed.aspx

www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/doublefeed.aspx

pax

robmkivseries70 · August 23, 2009, 11:46 AM

I'd like to add a bit of a different experience. I did the "Tap Rack...." thing but didn't get a "bang". I had a squib round, probably a reload I got at a show. The thing that saved me from a "KaBoom" was that the bullet hadn't gone far enough into the rifling to allow the next round to chamber.

It's only happened once to me but was enough to make me stop and think.
Best,
Rob

Tamara · August 23, 2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmkivseries70

I'd like to add a bit of a different experience. I did the "Tap Rack...." thing but didn't get a "bang". I had a squib round...

A squib round should be obvious to the ear. Anything other than a "click" or a "bang" should be a signal that you have not had a normal malfunction.

The immediate action drill for that malf is to pull your second gun.

Fremmer · August 23, 2009, 03:37 PM

I liked the CorneredCat section on misfeeds and double feeds, it taught me a lot. That's a good gun-info website.

My personal experience is that if the round doesn't ignite the first time, subsequent ('second chance') attempts to shoot that round will also fail. I just eject it (get rid of it) and continue on.

Nnobby45 · August 23, 2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

The thing that saved me from a "KaBoom" was that the bullet hadn't gone far enough into the rifling to allow the next round to chamber. It's only happened once to me but was enough to make me stop and think.
Best,
Rob

Squibs with no powder charge always (in my experience) stick in the rifling ahead of the chamber and won't allow the next rd. to chamber.

A squib with very light powder charge could stick it in the barrel and that could be disastrous.

Quote:

A squib round should be obvious to the ear. Anything other than a "click" or a "bang" should be a signal that you have not had a normal malfunction.

With too light a powder charge you may hear a big difference and be tipped off, but not (in my experience) when only the primer ignites. You can't distinguish that from an empty chamber or bad primer--at least not with hearing protection.

jjyergler · August 24, 2009, 10:17 AM

load each other's magazines, once or twice per session, put a snap cap in each other's magazines. That way, you don't even know what magazine it is in. It's a complete surprise. Your reaction will tell you how to train.

eppler · August 24, 2009, 11:44 AM

load a dummy round in your mag and mix up your bullets so you don't which one it is.

August 22, 2009, 03:02 PM	#1
armed_preacher Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: SW Colorado Posts: 78	Training for Misfires I have a Taurus 24/7 OSS DS that I've put about 400 rounds through. The other day at the range I had my first mis-fire. I was so "startled" that I stopped to "analyze" the situation. They I collected myself, aimed, and pulled the trigger again. The round fired the second time. When all you need do with a mis-fire is "pull trigger again," is there a way you can train for this, since it occurs so rarely? (unlike a mis-feed that needs cleared)

August 22, 2009, 08:46 PM	#6
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	Yes, tap/rack/bang will clear a misfire, a snap cap or a dummy round. A snap cap/dummy round is an object made to the proper dimensions of a cartridge in the chambering it is designed to work in. What distinguishes a snap cap from a dummy round is that a snap cap also includes a mechanism for cushioning the blow of the firing pin during dryfire practice. What a snap cap does during practice at the range is it allows you to see whether you are flinching or not when you pull the trigger. Normally recoil obscures a flinch, but since the snap cap won't fire, it lets the flinch "shine through". And since you don't know which round is the snap cap you won't be ready for it. Once you know you've got a flinch you can get to work curing it, but the first step is finding out that you have one. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

August 23, 2009, 02:35 AM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The one good thing about the shooting games(IPSC/IDPA) is that you learn to do IA(Immediate Action) drills. Pulling the trigger again doesn't work with all pistols. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 23, 2009, 04:47 AM	#8
scottaschultz Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 392	Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug Learn it, know it, live it! Scott __________________ "I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent

August 23, 2009, 11:03 AM	#15
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Nnobby told you the straight dope, preacher. You might want to check out these pictorials: www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/misfeed.aspx www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/doublefeed.aspx pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

August 22, 2009, 03:28 PM	#2
SoupieXX75 Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 67	Personally, I wouldn't train for misfires expecting the round to fire on a second trigger pull. The chances that it would fire on the second pull, are slim, therefore wasting (potentially) a critical amount of time. It would be better to perform SPORTS or more simply, "Slap, Rack, Bang". Check to ensure mag is securely in the mag well, chamber the next round, fire. A good way to train for this, is to have some "snap caps", and have a friend load them into a mag with live rounds (this way, you don't know when they're coming). When you hit the snap cap, it will be a fail to fire, so you then become familiar with clearing the misfire. Just my two cents.

August 22, 2009, 05:10 PM	#3
Xyas Member Join Date: July 2, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 87	Agreed with the above poster, I'd focus more on slap, rack, BANG! Practice this over and over until you can do it fast and efficiently...and pray your gun doesn't fail in a life or death situation.

August 22, 2009, 08:19 PM	#4
ChileVerde1 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2006 Posts: 101	Always train for misfires. During training it's common for me to load snap caps into my magazines during certain sesions to practice clearing malfunctions. You should also practice clearing stovepipes, double feeds, failures to extract, etc... by setting them up with snap caps (inert ammo of course) and then clearing them as fast as you can while remaining conscious of any threat. I'd take the live stuff out of the room when doing these drills. Also practice reloading and clearinj malfunctions one-handed by hooking yout rear sight blade on your belt, your jeans pocket, or on your boot heal while knealing. All these things will keep you in the fight and the faster the better!!

August 22, 2009, 08:27 PM	#5
Phoebe Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 192	ChiliVerde, does slap, rack, clear a snap cap? I don't understand how those things work. I have some, but haven't used them. Someone told me I should ask the RO to load my mag for me, with random snap caps, but I haven't tried that yet.

August 23, 2009, 08:38 AM	#12
armed_preacher Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: SW Colorado Posts: 78	So I have this 24/7 with "dbl strike" capability and I'm not supposed to use it? I thought that's why it is there. Especially on a carry gun.

August 23, 2009, 09:33 AM	#13
ChileVerde1 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2006 Posts: 101	Kayla- Yep that will clear a snap cap. Snap caps ar not just for dry firing they can be a valuable training aid. You can load your own, staggered in your mag at the range with live rounds and you won't remember where the "dud" is then execute a tap-rack-bang. Like I said, you can also use them to "stage" other types of malfunctions that are not cleared by a tap-rack-bang, for example, a double feed or failure to extract. Place a snap cap into the chamber of your weapon with the slide locked back and then depress the slide release after inserting a fresh magazine with snap caps creating the malfunction when the round coming out of the mag hits the round round already in the chamber. Place the weapon back into your duty holster, draw your weapon and clear the malfunction. This malfunction requires you to extract the magazine with your fingers ( somtimes your nails), drop it to the floor, and then slam the slide back and forth until the stuck round is extracted. Then load a fresh mag snap caps and fire simulating being back in the fight!! Again when I do this I keep all live ammo in another room!!!! These drills are taught at many LEO Academy's basic firearms courses.

August 23, 2009, 11:46 AM	#16
robmkivseries70 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2005 Location: free territory Posts: 203	I'd like to add a bit of a different experience. I did the "Tap Rack...." thing but didn't get a "bang". I had a squib round, probably a reload I got at a show. The thing that saved me from a "KaBoom" was that the bullet hadn't gone far enough into the rifling to allow the next round to chamber. It's only happened once to me but was enough to make me stop and think. Best, Rob

August 23, 2009, 03:37 PM	#18
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,482	I liked the CorneredCat section on misfeeds and double feeds, it taught me a lot. That's a good gun-info website. My personal experience is that if the round doesn't ignite the first time, subsequent ('second chance') attempts to shoot that round will also fail. I just eject it (get rid of it) and continue on.

August 24, 2009, 10:17 AM	#20
jjyergler Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2008 Posts: 295	Shoot with a friend, load each other's magazines, once or twice per session, put a snap cap in each other's magazines. That way, you don't even know what magazine it is in. It's a complete surprise. Your reaction will tell you how to train. __________________ Remington Nylon 66 .22LR - Squirrels Beware Browning BAR Safari II .270 Win - Whitetails Beware Sig Sauer P229 .40 S+W - Burglars Beware Hi Standard Supermatic Citation .22LR - Tincans Beware

August 24, 2009, 11:44 AM	#21
eppler Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Location: TX Posts: 14	load a dummy round in your mag and mix up your bullets so you don't which one it is.