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June 25, 2012, 06:34 PM | #26 |
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Wow freaky situation. I am glad it wasn't worse. Time to get Motion lights and a rottie lol.
I would however like to point out a potential issue. Double keyed deadbolts can kill you if you ever have a fire in your house. Always keep a spare set of keys near the floor within easy access. Magnetic Keyboxes work great if you have an appliance near the door. If you have ever been in a house full of smoke trying to unlock locks with a key is a nightmare. I had friends who were killed that way. All 3 of them found by the door with keys in their hands. Anyway just something to think about! |
June 25, 2012, 06:36 PM | #27 |
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you know there is a really low tech solution to this issue.
Get a dog. A barker will scare off 99% of door shakers and window breakers while giving you plenty of notice before hand. If you get past my dogs bark, you can meet my bite. |
June 25, 2012, 06:46 PM | #28 | |||
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June 25, 2012, 07:22 PM | #29 | |
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To reiterate criminals purposely pick the easiest targets possible. That normally makes smaller or older looking homes the first target. They are looking for a poorly illuminated house hoping no one is home or that an elderly person is home and sound asleep. I wish I kept some articles/studies I read for reference. Now I am sorry I did not.
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June 25, 2012, 07:47 PM | #30 |
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Well, I'll put it this way then. My house is one of the least desirable houses to look at in the neighborhood and is better illuminated than most. There is certainly no reason for anyone to think I'm an easy target unless they think a 52 year old fat guy is easy pickens. If that's the case then I can count on attempted break-ins on a regular basis. You cannot see into any window in my house that would give you an idea about what is in it. In fact, there isn't much of value that is in it except a few firearms but no one should know that because I'm not one of those guys with a big Glock sticker on my car window letting everyone know that I have guns.
Home invasions, unfortunately, happen everyday to all kinds of people. I'm just luckier than most that my number has been pulled twice in the last 6 months.
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June 25, 2012, 08:26 PM | #31 |
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Guy sticks his hand inside my broken window,he might get it back.
We got chef's knives right near the back door. Does wonders for holding a suspect for police when his hand is stuck to the INSIDE of a door he's trying to break into. Not advocating that at all. |
June 25, 2012, 09:03 PM | #32 |
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Old marksman, these are the exact words of the law and case law citing a specific case. Colorado Law concerning the Use of Deadly Force
Does Colorado have a "Make My Day" law? YES. Passed in 1985. 18-1-704.5 Use of deadly physical force against an intruder. (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant. (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force. (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force. Does Colorado law allow the use of physical force in defense of a person (outside of the home)? YES. 18-1-704 Use of physical force in defense of a person. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose. (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and: (a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or (b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or Fact1 The burgler attempted to get in the house to trigger the Law, could've been shot dead there. Fact2 The presumable reason for continuing to stay on the property under the carport was because he was trying to figure out another way to get in, triggering the law directly above, reread the last bit carefully. If he managed to get back in and was confronted by the homeowner I think we can all assume a violent confrontation. Section b above is very clear. I can hear you shouting that there had to be another crime or some threat of violence. Before you get too set on that opinion read about the Zoey Ripple case. Here is the summation Good old Zoey got herself seriously drunk, broke into a couples home and wandered around. The couple shouted from another room asking who was there, she was too drunk to notice or answer. They shot her. She had no weapon and was not even burglarising the place. The fact that she was there was enough to justify the shooting in the eyes of the DA of the peoples republic of boulder and these people think San Franciscans are right wing crazies. If there was a way to prosecute it would have happened. This law was one of the last gems produced before the transplanted Californians took over politics there. The law itself and case law illustrating my point. That being said you'll notice I agreed that what he did was not only the right thing but the best thing.
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June 25, 2012, 09:09 PM | #33 | |
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Frankly I think the idea of closing on an intruder to attack them with a melee weapon of any sort is already in a grey area if not just asking for legal troubles. Think of it even in states with a stand your ground law and/or castle doctrine you're not just standing your ground anymore. You're actually making an advance on the intruder to attack them. I remember speaking with our state's Attorney General after the our state adopted a castle doctrine and basically he told me that advancing on the intruder to attack him/her with a melee weapon could be construed as assault with a deadly weapon and depending on your DA you could be facing felony assault charges. Legalities aside there are also issues with closing on a possibly armed (with a firearm) intruder with a melee weapon. My guess is you'll just get yourself shot. Of course I've gotten the argument that they've got specific hiding spots that they can wait in till the intruder passes them then they can jump out and take them down from the side or from behind. Of course umm... that then relates back to the above paragraph regarding assault with a deadly weapon. Basically cutting at the intruder is just a bad idea all around.
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June 25, 2012, 10:35 PM | #34 | |
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June 25, 2012, 11:10 PM | #35 | ||
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scrubcedar,
In post 12 you wrote (emphasis added): That is absolutely wrong, as pointed out by OldMarksman. In post 32, you quoted part of Colorado law, specifically 18-1-704.5(2), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows: So under the statute you, yourself, quoted, the occupant must be able to show the following facts in order to justify the use of deadly force:
And, note that the occupant must show facts that support an inference that his beliefs on the various points was reasonable.
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June 26, 2012, 12:13 AM | #36 |
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The first thing you're not understanding is the law was written as broadly as possible. Let's take the example I used (the drunken co-ed)and take it apart using your points. Did she break in? yes. Was she going to commit another crime? No evidence of that any where and I looked for LE quotes as well as reports from the DA very carefully. Theft of food maybe? how could you tell?"when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant."Aha! now we find the phrase that explains it! This was a 20 y.o. 120lb coed who's blood alcohol was .20 at that point she would not likely be coordinated enough to walk straight let alone attack somebody. But she might be!, who knows. Prove that there was no chance she was dangerous AND I knew it! anybody MIGHT use force once they have broken into your home. Notice as well the phrase" no matter how slight".By your reading of the law they should have been charged. They were not! This is the Boulder DA, every gun grabber in the nation is on his speed dial. The intent of the law was you don't have to wait for him to make the first move. He's assumed to be the aggressor because he's in your home. The actual words of the law are quite deliberately vague and place the onus on the DA to prove that you were acting completely unreasonably. The situation once they are in your home is so fluid and dangerous it would be nearly impossible to prove you KNEW you were in no danger and fired anyway.
The piece of the puzzle about outside the home is a little less clear but case law backs that up too. I can find an example if you'd like. Lets take the situation that started this thread. Let's say the guy is on your front lawn walking toward your house with a crowbar at 3am. I think we can all assume he's not here to play tiddlywinks. At that point this kicks in: 18-1-704 Use of physical force in defense of a person. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose. (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and: (a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or (b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or It is reasonable to assume at this point that he is going to break in to your house and if he finds you there injure or kill you,this is imminent use of unlawful physical force. Thus fulfilling the requirements for sections 1 and 2, a and b. He's hanging around in your carport afterwards. Once again, to play tiddlywinks? No, he's still trying to get in! At which point does the law apply again? tougher call but probably still what if he figures out a way in? This type of scenario was SPECIFICALLY debated on the floor and was provided for on purpose. The part that was misleading was I couldn't find the complete text as well as several examples. Dad was a mover and shaker in Southern Colorado politics when this happened we all followed the story and I got to talk to those involved at the time. DA's and legal experts were brought on to the TV all assuring us that this was going to lead to legalized murder. Looking back the text I found wasn't as clear as it could have been. Do a little google searching about how the law has actually been applied and you may find you agree with me.
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June 26, 2012, 12:52 AM | #37 |
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scrubcedar, if I understand the way the system works, the problem with your argument is that a decision not to charge by the DA does not actually set any legal precedent.
If I understand things correctly, precedent won't be set until a situation results in a trial, a verdict is rendered, and that verdict is appealed. IE, the lowest level at which a binding precedent is set is at the appellate level, and even then that precedent only applies to courts under the jurisidiction of that appellate court - although it can be used in an advisory capacity by courts outside the jurisdiction of the appellate court. So, until you can cite cases in your area that have been successfully appealed (in favor of the shooter), you are basically gambling on the interpretations of the DA you draw, and the jury you draw. (Again, assuming my understanding is correct - I am NOT a lawyer.) |
June 26, 2012, 12:59 AM | #38 |
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I could probably find you examples but read my post again I remembered something I left out and was editing it when you posted. It might explain it for you. The Law was written in 1985 and as I recall went through appeals not long afterward. Came out completely intact. The point of the law was to rein in bad DA's who were charging people who shouldn't have been.
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June 26, 2012, 01:27 AM | #39 | ||||||||
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For example, it's entirely possible the DA concluded, based on the way the householder told his story and given the girl's lack of response to repeated challenges, the householder would be able to establish to a jury's satisfaction that the householder reasonably believed that she intended to commit a crime and to use force. Quote:
Here's a link to an excellent discussion written by an experienced lawyer and published in the journal of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. And I wrote this overview here:
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But Colorado law, as you've quoted it, doesn't provide for such a presumption. Quote:
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June 26, 2012, 03:30 AM | #40 |
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interesting thread, but i think that any(sane) DA doesn't want bring felony charges to a person defending they're home/residence from an intruder, because of the fact that it sends the message your not safe in your own home/residence, even in the areas where there are laws that you're not allow to use deadly force against an intruder(which is a bizzare law/idea, but i'm sure there are places where that is law), IMHO i think that there should be a federal stand your ground/home is a castle law.
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June 26, 2012, 06:07 AM | #41 | |
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murder is the taking of innocent life, taking the life of an intruder who has broken into your house, is not murder in Texas nor should it be. In any case it is the legal definitions that count in the state, not the morals ones. I have no garage, no alarm system, if they break in and I am gone I have insurance, and as far as breaking in on me through a deadbolt lock and I don't know them, I will stop the theat with deadly force. Neighbors do have dogs, which do warn me if a stranger approaches. But if you go outside your house and shoot him and he is unarmed, even in your garage you could be charged. I have enough trouble staying up on the laws in Texas that it is very hard to stay up on the laws in other states. |
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June 26, 2012, 06:42 AM | #42 |
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Scrubcedar, there is a very big difference between excusing the use if deadly force when there is reason to believe that such force is immediately necessary to defend against a threat of imminent death or serious injury, and permitting the shooting of someone who is "on your property with or without your approval."
The part of Colorado law that addresses the lawful use of deadly force outdoors is very similar to the law in most other states; it is essentially what the common law has held for centuries; there's nothing even relatively new in it. The so called "make my day" provision greatly reduces the threshold for justification in the even of an unlawful entry into the home (any force, no matter how slight) and reduces the evidentiary burden on the actor. A number of other states have adopted rather similar provisions, but laws do vary among jurisdictions. As fiddletown and MLeake have pointed out, is not correct to characterize either a decision in a trial court or a decision by a charging authority as "case law". Neither has any precedential value. The next one can always go the other way. On other thing: the statement "By your reading of the law they should have been charged. They were not!" needs to be addressed. When one has taken a life, there are two ways of characterizing the possible outcomes regarding charges: the actors were charged, or the actors have not been charged. Unless and until there has been a trial and acquittal or a full pardon, charges can always be filed against a living person when a homicide has occurred. Either new evidence or a new District Attorney can bring that about, as can political pressure. And I would not go so far as to contend that a reasonable person would not believe that an intoxicated person posed an imminent threat of force against the occupants. |
June 26, 2012, 07:38 AM | #43 | |
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also care for a disabled adult child. I have noted in some posts some maintain that a lost drunk does not pose a threat. I doubt the intruder would be close enough for me to determine what the problem was if he is breaking in before I fire to stop the intruder. In face where I live it would be more likely the intruder was high on crack. There is only one door, one way in and one way out. Retreat is not an option. |
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June 26, 2012, 07:43 AM | #44 |
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I would think yelling "go away, I have a gun" would effectively separate the lost drunks from the determined criminals.
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June 26, 2012, 08:07 AM | #45 | |
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June 26, 2012, 08:24 AM | #46 |
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Back to the idea of going outside with a holstered gun....
WHY? You surrender all tactical and legal advantage when you leave the interior of the house. Besides the unknown number and location of the bad guys the police responding might decide that YOU are the prowler they were called about and you won't like how they treat you until things are sorted out. Only reason I can see to leave the house is if it's on fire. |
June 26, 2012, 09:29 AM | #47 |
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Wow, lots of forays into bad ideas in this thread. Other than not fixing the door and hardening it IMO you did exactly as you should have. Too bad they did not catch the trespassers but you might have scared them off enough to try an easier target next time. Two break-ins in six months? Might consider where you are living too and see if you can afford a nicer place.
I second the suggestion for camera system if you don't move. You can get one with a DVR to cover the main entries for under $400. It will help the police considerably when trying to find the criminals.
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June 26, 2012, 09:43 AM | #48 |
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Good to hear you're okay after both ordeals. I think you definitely did the right thing. Killing someone should be the last resort (assuming your life isn't directly in danger, then it should be the first).
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June 26, 2012, 10:08 AM | #49 | ||
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In the latter case, if you shoot the guy you may well be able to get off if your mistaken conclusion was nonetheless reasonable that your use of lethal force was necessary, and the legal requirements for justification were still satisfied. You might thus be able to avoid jail. You will not be able to avoid your conscience or the judgments of your friends, neighbors and co-workers.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 26, 2012 at 11:11 AM. Reason: clarify |
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June 26, 2012, 11:27 AM | #50 |
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Mr. Ettin, I was trying to say in my last post that I have been and was at the time around attorneys who disagree with your interpretation of this law. Some of them being people who helped draft it. Your quote that you used to help me understand self defense is very convincing and may even match the Colorado law on the matter for other situations I don't know. Notice the language of this Colorado law differs greatly from what you used. "when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant." Prove that it's not reasonable that ANY intruder, even that drunk girl, might use "PHYSICAL FORCE NO MATTER HOW SLIGHT" in open court. I'll ask you with your experience what odds the DA has (provided the intruder was awake at the time)? You're right that I can't immediately put my hands on case law or refute what you said about presumption in self defense. When many lawyers have one opinion and one has another, providing you're not a lawyer who would you believe? All of these guys at the time explained it to me as I explained it to you. Not trying to rile you up again but is it possible they knew Colorado law specifically better than you? The boulder DA obviously didn't want to try it in this particular case and that seems to agree with my points more than it agrees with yours. All that being said let's get real. You didn't identify your target well enough to see it was a harmless drunken coed and you fired anyway?
Surely there was some way to figure that out without endangering yourself or nearly killing her. I don't know, I wasn't there. I do know I'd be second guessing myself for the rest of my life over the incident. I'm VERY tired of debate and flame wars. I log on to these forums to relax. I yield the field to you sir. In this particular case I would be surprised if I were wrong, but it sounds safe to listen to your advice. I'll stop posting about the law and you can stop being so angry. The reduction in your blood pressure will be my parting gift to you.
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