ramifications of the Walther/S&W divorce

kcub · August 22, 2013, 07:23 PM

Is this the end of the American made PPK?
(not to be confused with zinc Umarex junk)

RamItOne · August 22, 2013, 07:25 PM

PPQ M2 - ugh, too Americanized.

carguychris · August 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Is this the end of the American made PPK?

No. S&W will continue to make the PPK and PPK/S for the forseeable future; in fact, IIRC the S&W plant in Houlton, ME is reportedly the only place in the world where the centerfire PPK and PPK/S are made at the current time.

FWIW the gun press has also reported that Umarex will continue making the M&P22.

kcub · August 23, 2013, 04:06 AM

Quote:

PPQ M2 - ugh, too Americanized.

They will import the M1's also at some point. Only difference is the safety, right? I love my M1 navy.

PSP · August 23, 2013, 05:37 AM

The Walther Arms web site still shows the PPK and PPK/S available, though in .380 only.

Fishbed77 · August 23, 2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

They will import the M1's also at some point. Only difference is the safety, right? I love my M1 navy.

That and the fact that the PPQ M2 can not use P99/PPQ M1/Magnum Research MR magazines.

A terrible decision on Walther's part.

Rodger_p · August 23, 2013, 10:45 AM

I must be living under the proverbial rock because I didn't even know that they had filed for separation.

Mystro · August 23, 2013, 10:46 AM

Yea, for a German company to cater to Americans is a compromise and compromise in a firearm is never a good thing and many feel it is a sell out. Walther should have stayed the course with the PPQ "classic". If your not smart enough to master the paddle safety, buy a Glock. Instead of raising the training and skill level of the gun owner, they dummy the guns design down for idiots with limited skill. The XD is guilty of this.

kcub · August 23, 2013, 11:19 AM

Nobody knocks Sigs for having a sold out button mag release.

Mystro · August 23, 2013, 11:40 AM

Sigs have always had one and that was part of the original design being a DA/SA.

Fishbed77 · August 23, 2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Sigs have always had one and that was part of the original design being a DA/SA.

Wrong.

The original SIG P220 had a heel release.

Quote:

Nobody knocks Sigs for having a sold out button mag release.

The push-button was an improvement over the heel release for the SIGs.

The push-button, however, is a definite step backwards from the Walther paddle release.

.

tulsamal · August 23, 2013, 03:27 PM

I have to agree that I far prefer the original PPQ design for the mag release. My carry gun is an HK P2000 with the same paddle at the rear of the trigger guard. Easy to activate with your trigger finger. No shifting of the grip at all. My HK45 is the same way. My HK P7 M8 is the same way. I bought the PPQ at least partly to get the type of mag release that I really think is superior. Can't believe they went back and changed it.

Gregg

SpareMag · August 23, 2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

The push-button, however, is a definite step backwards from the Walther paddle release.

The paddle release is one of the great features of the PPQ series, and it is sheer Not-Invented-Here American obstinacy that is forcing Walther to back away from a really nice feature. To have two guns differing only in the way the mag releases is prob causing much fuming in Ulm.

I lost a mag from a Steyr GB when I fell from a horse and landed on my pistol-carrying side. It was in an open-carry flap holster. Didn't realize I lost my mag till I got home.

I have not carried a button-release pistol on horseback since, but pack a revolver.

The other NIH bit of idiocy is the really elegant Steyr frame safety which takes two fingers to engage, but a simple flick of the trigger finger to disengage.

DPris · August 23, 2013, 04:22 PM

I'm one of those idiots with limited skills who happens to think the PPQ2 is by far the best iteration of the P99/PPQ models.

That paddle mag release (not the safety) was the tipper that tilted the scale away from me buying one when the PPQ first came out.
You like it- fine. I don't. I don't call those who do idiots.

I've worked with the P99 & derivatives since it was first introduced.
Had the PPQ2 .40 I worked with a few months back been a 9, it'd still be here.
There WILL be a 9 here one of these days in the not too distant future, in the PPQ2 configuration.

Walther says they produced it in response to American consumer requests, and since Patrick Sweeney & I were not the only two who pointed out the paddle was the only thing stopping us from buying, I'd assume there are many other idiots with limited skills out there besides just us two.

Denis

Herr Walther · August 23, 2013, 04:45 PM

I have my doubts as to whether Walther was listening to North American consumer requests.

In reality, the NA market is but a small dent in their bottom line. I don't really think they give a crap about what we think of their product unless the Europeans are in agreement.

DPris · August 23, 2013, 05:19 PM

On April 15, 2013, the following was included in emails back & forth with Walther's rep in working with that sample I had here:

"Research in the US market said the button mag release was preferred and more popular."
That was in response to my question about how & why the PPQ2 had come about.

You want to argue the point, you're welcome to do it with Walther.
I wouldn't expect you to believe an idiot with limited skills like me.

Denis

LockedBreech · August 23, 2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystro

Yea, for a German company to cater to Americans is a compromise and compromise in a firearm is never a good thing and many feel it is a sell out. Walther should have stayed the course with the PPQ "classic". If your not smart enough to master the paddle safety, buy a Glock. Instead of raising the training and skill level of the gun owner, they dummy the guns design down for idiots with limited skill. The XD is guilty of this.

Preference re: magazine release style has nothing to do with intelligence, and suggesting so forcefully that it does is childish. I can operate both just fine and prefer push-button. I'm a pretty smart guy, too, if professional and educational credentials are any indication of intellect (I'm not sure they always are).

It's cool that you like paddle-style better. Lots of folks do. It doesn't mean you're smarter.

DPris · August 23, 2013, 05:34 PM

For a German company to cater to its market is a compromise?
Interesting view of the business world.

In 1982 when my PD was allowing the heel-clip SIG P220 for private purchase, we found that version cumbersome to reload.
When SIG "catered to its market" and "compromised" by switching to a conventional button release, sales took off, and look at where SIG is today in the US.
Denis

WVsig · August 23, 2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:

In 1982 when my PD was allowing the heel-clip SIG P220 for private purchase, we found that version cumbersome to reload.
When SIG "catered to its market" and "compromised" by switching to a conventional button release, sales took off, and look at where SIG is today in the US.
Denis

For those who are properly trained to use it the heal release is just as fast if not faster than the button release. My guess is that you departments simply had muscle memory training which was not worth the time effort and expense to correct. Not that I blame you.

Even with the change by the mid 2000's Sig was on the verge of going under before the Cohen Era began. More sales do not equal better design or better performance. Sometime cultural biases play a huge part like in your example of the button vs heal mag release. Just ask Sony about Betamax... LOL

On the flip side look at what VWAG is going in the automotive industry by catering to the US market.... they are positioning themselves to be the #1 automaker in the world.

DPris · August 23, 2013, 06:02 PM

Whether increased sales indicate a better design or not, increased sales do indicate a stronger bottom line, as in profit, which is why these companies are in business.
Those who disregard their market's preferences too widely tend to not stay in business for long.

And anybody who thinks the US market is a drop in the bucket for Walther needs to re-examine the gun world.

Where in Germany specifically or Europe in general is there such market potential for a hi-cap non-sporting and non-military pistol?
Denis

WVsig · August 23, 2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Where in Germany specifically or Europe in general is there such market potential for a hi-cap non-sporting and non-military pistol?

Lucrative Govt contracts. Police contracts etc.... Do you think that Walther sells more pistols to the commerical market in the US or the Govt market in Europe?

WVsig · August 23, 2013, 06:12 PM

In terms of the Walther S&W relationship besides the PPK S&W was nothing but a rebrander or importer of Walther products. If they are going to continue making the PPK Walther will simply create their own importer and move on which is what they are doing last I heard.

DPris · August 23, 2013, 06:12 PM

You'd have to break that down by model & year.

I'm not aware of large police contracts in Europe with the PPQ in any version.
Point is that the US market is more than merely a drop in the bucket, and with the separation from S&W Walther's going after it more aggressively.

You don't think they crunched the numbers?
You think the decision was made on a wild weekend during Oktoberfest?

If they didn't believe sales would justify the change, they wouldn't have made it.
Denis

WVsig · August 23, 2013, 06:19 PM

You assume that Walther was the one who chose to split.... I do not believe that to be the case. The as S&W has pushed full force into the M&P world the Walther brand under them seems like more of a distraction than a money maker but again not knowing the details this is a guess. S&W did not get a lot out of Walther in the agreement beyond the PPK.

I believe the Netherlands adopted the PPQ and ordered somewhere in the range of 50,000.

I am not on the board of Walther or S&W so I do not assume to know exactly why they broke up but in the end it has little to no effect on the US consumer. If anything it should lower the price of Walther pistols because they will no longer have to pay S&W to market and service them.

The reality is Walther has never had a large presence in the US market. I think they saw the P99 as a start and the PPQ as an opportunity but greatest asset to these guns will be their undoing in the LEO/Govt Market in the US. I think it will be a popular seller but will never reach Glock/M&P/XD or even HK/Sig levels. Outside of the PPK and the P1 the name has little brand recognition outside shooting enthusiasts which make up a portion of the US pistol market. I am not sure the PPQ and their own importation company will change that.

Bart Noir · August 23, 2013, 06:39 PM

Quote:

I lost a mag from a Steyr GB when I fell from a horse and landed on my pistol-carrying side.

So, SpareMag, did this have something to do with your forum name?

And who would be so rash as to argue with somebody named Herr Walther?

Bart Noir

August 22, 2013, 07:25 PM	#2
RamItOne Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2011 Posts: 990	PPQ M2 - ugh, too Americanized. __________________ M&P- the other dark meat https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...rtant/DJyvnHz0

August 23, 2013, 10:46 AM	#8
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 1,528	Yea, for a German company to cater to Americans is a compromise and compromise in a firearm is never a good thing and many feel it is a sell out. Walther should have stayed the course with the PPQ "classic". If your not smart enough to master the paddle safety, buy a Glock. Instead of raising the training and skill level of the gun owner, they dummy the guns design down for idiots with limited skill. The XD is guilty of this. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

August 23, 2013, 11:40 AM	#10
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 1,528	Sigs have always had one and that was part of the original design being a DA/SA. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

August 23, 2013, 04:45 PM	#15
Herr Walther Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: A Place Worse than California Posts: 782	I have my doubts as to whether Walther was listening to North American consumer requests. In reality, the NA market is but a small dent in their bottom line. I don't really think they give a crap about what we think of their product unless the Europeans are in agreement. __________________ "It was people who upheld their duties to their office, the constitution, and the public by opposing Hitler who were called traitors" ------------------------------------- "...a historian asked what had happened to the German people for them to accept a criminal government. Unfortunately, nothing needed to happen. In nations across the world people accept government crime." ------------------------------------- "In democracies as well as dictatorships, subordinates illegally obey their rulers. Subordinates who remain true to their oaths of office by opposing their rulers are rare."

August 23, 2013, 06:12 PM	#22
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	In terms of the Walther S&W relationship besides the PPK S&W was nothing but a rebrander or importer of Walther products. If they are going to continue making the PPK Walther will simply create their own importer and move on which is what they are doing last I heard. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

August 22, 2013, 07:23 PM	#1
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	ramifications of the Walther/S&W divorce Is this the end of the American made PPK? (not to be confused with zinc Umarex junk)

August 23, 2013, 05:37 AM	#5
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	The Walther Arms web site still shows the PPK and PPK/S available, though in .380 only.

August 23, 2013, 10:45 AM	#7
Rodger_p Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2004 Location: East TN. Posts: 207	I must be living under the proverbial rock because I didn't even know that they had filed for separation.

August 23, 2013, 11:19 AM	#9
kcub Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 3,318	Nobody knocks Sigs for having a sold out button mag release.

August 23, 2013, 03:27 PM	#12
tulsamal Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Location: Vinita, OK Posts: 2,552	I have to agree that I far prefer the original PPQ design for the mag release. My carry gun is an HK P2000 with the same paddle at the rear of the trigger guard. Easy to activate with your trigger finger. No shifting of the grip at all. My HK45 is the same way. My HK P7 M8 is the same way. I bought the PPQ at least partly to get the type of mag release that I really think is superior. Can't believe they went back and changed it. Gregg

August 23, 2013, 04:22 PM	#14
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I'm one of those idiots with limited skills who happens to think the PPQ2 is by far the best iteration of the P99/PPQ models. That paddle mag release (not the safety) was the tipper that tilted the scale away from me buying one when the PPQ first came out. You like it- fine. I don't. I don't call those who do idiots. I've worked with the P99 & derivatives since it was first introduced. Had the PPQ2 .40 I worked with a few months back been a 9, it'd still be here. There WILL be a 9 here one of these days in the not too distant future, in the PPQ2 configuration. Walther says they produced it in response to American consumer requests, and since Patrick Sweeney & I were not the only two who pointed out the paddle was the only thing stopping us from buying, I'd assume there are many other idiots with limited skills out there besides just us two. Denis

August 23, 2013, 05:19 PM	#16
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	On April 15, 2013, the following was included in emails back & forth with Walther's rep in working with that sample I had here: "Research in the US market said the button mag release was preferred and more popular." That was in response to my question about how & why the PPQ2 had come about. You want to argue the point, you're welcome to do it with Walther. I wouldn't expect you to believe an idiot with limited skills like me. Denis

August 23, 2013, 05:34 PM	#18
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	For a German company to cater to its market is a compromise? Interesting view of the business world. In 1982 when my PD was allowing the heel-clip SIG P220 for private purchase, we found that version cumbersome to reload. When SIG "catered to its market" and "compromised" by switching to a conventional button release, sales took off, and look at where SIG is today in the US. Denis

August 23, 2013, 06:02 PM	#20
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Whether increased sales indicate a better design or not, increased sales do indicate a stronger bottom line, as in profit, which is why these companies are in business. Those who disregard their market's preferences too widely tend to not stay in business for long. And anybody who thinks the US market is a drop in the bucket for Walther needs to re-examine the gun world. Where in Germany specifically or Europe in general is there such market potential for a hi-cap non-sporting and non-military pistol? Denis

August 23, 2013, 06:19 PM	#24
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	You assume that Walther was the one who chose to split.... I do not believe that to be the case. The as S&W has pushed full force into the M&P world the Walther brand under them seems like more of a distraction than a money maker but again not knowing the details this is a guess. S&W did not get a lot out of Walther in the agreement beyond the PPK. I believe the Netherlands adopted the PPQ and ordered somewhere in the range of 50,000. I am not on the board of Walther or S&W so I do not assume to know exactly why they broke up but in the end it has little to no effect on the US consumer. If anything it should lower the price of Walther pistols because they will no longer have to pay S&W to market and service them. The reality is Walther has never had a large presence in the US market. I think they saw the P99 as a start and the PPQ as an opportunity but greatest asset to these guns will be their undoing in the LEO/Govt Market in the US. I think it will be a popular seller but will never reach Glock/M&P/XD or even HK/Sig levels. Outside of the PPK and the P1 the name has little brand recognition outside shooting enthusiasts which make up a portion of the US pistol market. I am not sure the PPQ and their own importation company will change that. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; August 23, 2013 at 06:26 PM.