Would a gun have made a difference?

[dave_in_delaware]

Here's a scenario that played out for me and my fiancee just this past Monday night.

I had taken her up to Scranton, PA (2.5 hour drive each way - ouch) to see her favorite band in concert. The concert started at 8, went until about 11, it took us a while to get out of the building, and then we walked back to the parking garage. There were already tons of cars lined up to get out of there, so we decided to stand at the car, and cool off, and re-hydrate w/ some soda we had brought along, wait for the line of cars to die down... No problem.

Anyway, these 4 guys walk past us to their SUV, parked about 5 spaces away from my car, and start playing music really loud, pissing on the wall (rude, but ok), talking really loud, etc. They were younger and a bit intoxicated (ok, really intoxicated). We stood at the car for about 20 minutes, just watching them, and the cars going past us, etc. As time went on, the group of 4 punks started getting slowly closer to us. It didn't seem like it was on purpose, but maybe it was. [I went to college in Philadelphia, and I've been in a few stupid fights, and know that a group of guys inching towards you is not a good thing] So, I tell my fiancee to get in the car, that those guys are getting too close for my confort level. We both get into the car, and pull out of the space, and wait our turn in the line of cars to leave the parking garage. Technically, those guys didn't do anything wrong, except get progressively closer to me and my fiancee. Maybe I'm just paranoid, or overly protective of my girl. OK, I'm both.

Sorry for a no-action story, but this is a hypothetical kind of post now. FYI: I don't have my CCW yet. I had thought about a home defense kind of scenario, but not this kind. I'd love to hear your opinions on my thoughts and questions here:

What if those guys would have suddenly rushed up on us? If I was carrying, would I have been able to unholster my gun and at least point it at them in time? What if I didn't have time to say anything? Do they deserve a verbal warning? What about a warning shot? Would I have been justified in just opening fire on the closest one without any warnings like "Stay back" or "STOP" ? Even if I hit one of them and he stopped, there were still 3 others....

Or, if they weren't rushing us, and just kept getting closer (be it accidentally or purposely), would just saying "Please don't come any closer" or "Could you guys please go back over closer to your vehicle?" be enough? Of course, if they didn't, or decided to get all macho, I guess warning them I'm armed would be justified, and if they still don't then drawing the weapon would be a necessity. Then what? Have them all get down on the ground, etc etc.. until the police come, or just stay down until we drive away? What does one do in a situation like that?

Or, even though I have as much of a right to stay at my car and they stay at their's, if they are advancing, is my only legally acceptable possibility to just turn tail and get in the car to avoid a situation? Actually, I guess I'll read up on my State code again. I do have it all saved on my hard drive.

I'm just asking these questions now since I'm thinking of it, and imagining if it hadn't panned out the way it did, and those guys were looking for trouble, what should I have done, or could I have done? As a responsible gun owner and [future] CCW owner, I want to know what I can/should do in a situation like that. So many questions. I know hindsight is usually 20/20. How would you have reacted to these situations? Any of your thoughts, comments, tips, etc. would be appreciated. Thanks.

[XavierBreath]

Dave,
One of the things people realize as they age is how to avoid places and events that would put them at risk. You had every right to go to the concert of your choice. Knowing that some pop stars attract certain kinds of fans is something to use in your favor. Knowing parking garages are slow to empty after an event is another. I'm thinking your concerns stem from feeling totally out of control of the situation, and realizing how vulnerable you were (and you were). That is good. It is good for young men to realize they can be pounded into gooey stains by other young men. The fear you felt that makes you ask these questions is your greatest ally. It is what will protect you. Do not rationalize it away. Remember that fear, and use it in the future to keep yourself out of similar situations.

At any rate, would a gun have made a difference? Certainly. It could be the difference between you going home, spending time in jail, or laying on a slab. A gun does not solve problems. In fact, a gun often causes problems. What solves problems is accurate assessment of the situation and effective intervention. A gun only helps if there is no effective intervention available. Making your last resort your first resort is not a good thing to do.

Everyone survived your incident just fine. You can "what if" yourself till the cows come home. The reality is there is not a sure green light to effective and justifiable use of lethal force. Some will resort to lethal force to early and pay for it. Others will get it right and walk free. Still others, sadly, will resort to lethal force to late and be killed or irreversibly injured.

[threefivesevenmag]

Hey,

Sorry for the unfortunate approach of the punks.

I feel, in that situation, it was probably best to just get in your car and leave. If it played out how it actually happened...then just leaving was the best option. It's not worth drawing, shooting, or going to jail because of four drunk teens. Plus, you'd be smeared the bad guy I am sure...that would be civil court hell.

Now, if they all of a sudden, out of the blue attacked you...I don't think you'd have to time to do anything but fight back and hopefully draw your gun. Creating space would be the best option...which is why leaving before they attacked was a good solution.

Since you saw them coming and were aware, then no bad stuff had to happen. If they came out of nowhere and attacked you...you'd be totally justified in using lethal force. They have larger numbers and are capable of inflicting serious harm or death, not to mention harm your girlfriend. So if it was a surprise attack and you didn't see it coming...fighting back armed and trying to make space between you and the group would be the best option.

Again, if you saw them coming and could leave...I would just leave and avoid having to fight. But...if you couldn't leave, say you were waiting for a friend that was using the bathroom and the punks were coming up too close, I feel a verbal warning wouldn't be unjustified. I would just try and say "hello" or "hey, cool show wasn't it?" Instead of STOP! Maybe they're just trying to be "big men" and showing that they can intimidate. Hopefully they'd just back off and go back to being who they are in another area.

Now...if they threatened you for no reason and you couldn't leave and they kept approaching and you coundn't diffuse it with kind banter...then a STOP and a draw would probably be justified. I'd hope they would get the picture and leave before any violence would occur. I am sure they would, if not...they were warned and were obviously up to no good.

So, I say if you can leave...leave, if not a verbal warning might be in order depending upon your ability to leave. A draw would follow that...but I'd be as sure as I could that it didn't have to go that far unless needed. It wouldn't be worth the court and civil troubles that would lay ahead.

A warning shot is a bad idea for the most part. The bullet could go anywhere and especially in a parking garage or parking area...it wouldn't be a good idea. Plus, you'd be down a round and possibly not be able to hear as well. So, take that into consideration. If you ever fire your gun as a civilian, you should only use it on someone trying to harm you in the worst way. So, I would say no to most warning shots.

Hope that helped. I also totally agree with Xavier.

[SomeKid]

The safest gunfight is the one you avoid. Good call on moving on out.

Now then, your what if they attacked you? Give the funeral home four bodies. When the police ask why you shot them, you feared for your life, and were afraid that after they killed you, they might have a drunken gang rape of your woman.

As to the arguement you should drive away, you couldn't. Parking garage had a line, no escape route.

[Russ538]

I figure with drunks, if they charged at you and you pulled out your weapon, they'd probably not even notice or comprehend it, and keep charging anyways.

I'd probably just get in the car. Then you can really tell if they are just wandering around or if they plan to attack, because they'd have to be trying to break into the car to get at you. I guess if you're stuck in this situation, you certainly do have a 3,000 pound weapon to defend yourself with.

[gddyup]

Now then, your what if they attacked you? Give the funeral home four bodies. When the police ask why you shot them, you feared for your life, and were afraid that after they killed you, they might have a drunken gang rape of your woman.

I don't know if you would be legally alright if you shot and killed all 4 though. Not that I take everything I read for granted but what is to follow makes sense to me...

The Warren Doctrine states that within a gang,any member of the mob shares the responsibility for causing reasonable fear. Afeter all but one of the gang has been disabled , the last standing is no longer part of the gang.

At that point, the alst man standing has to be judged on his own actions. If you shot and disabled and/or killed 3 of the guys and the last one there was not a threat, you can't ise lethal force against him anymore at that point. Disparity of force is no longer a viable reason for lethal force.

I thought you made the right decision. The best defense is always to not be there in the first place. Mr. Miyagi say "Best way avoid punch no be there..."

[SomeKid]

The arguement then becomes...

I did not know they were dead, I simply thought they had fallen, and would get back up and attack me some more, but I could not flee with my woman because then this guy attacks us...

I know this. If it actually made it to trial, and I were on the jury, he would walk. Even if he executed the wounded with a shot to the temple. (I do not advocate this, in many Blue states this may be too much force, likely a few reds as well.)

Can anyone tell I am a big on Self-Defense and making sure criminals do not re-offend?

[Garand Illusion]

There are many situations where a gun wouldn't help, but few where it's a bad thing to have (unless you carry it openly, in which case it may get used on you). That's why I carry in deep concealment -- whatever I decide to do, I always have an option that only I know about.

In this case though ... you can't just open up on people because they are scaring you.

Some time ago I was on a late night walk (like about 1:00 a.m.) in my neighborhood. Sounds odd, I know, but I work weird hours and really like to unwind before I go to bed. Besides, what's better for the neighborhood than a responsible adult walking around and keeping an eye on things?

As I'm walking down the main street, an approaching car suddenly slows down and heads straight for me. Obviously there's no one else around.

The car pulls right up with it's headlights on me as I squinted to see if it was someone I knew in the drivers seat. Needless to say, my hackles were way up because it was a little car and I didn't recognize it.

About 2 feet away the driver suddenly lays on the horn, making me just about jump out of my shoes. Then the car turns and races past, and from the open windows I can hear some teenagers laughing their butts off at how they scared the old guy out walking alone.

So ... no big deal. It was just some punks out pulling a joke. No one was hurt, and while it did piss me off I just have to remember that I was a teenage punk once upon a time too, and also did things to scare people just for fun.

But nonetheless I was comforted by the fact that I had a .38 snubby concealed on my person. I didn't draw it, of course, but if things went bad I had an option.

In your case ... I'd also be nervous about the punks approaching. But in a crowded garage with no easy way to get away they probably weren't meaning any serious trouble.

Maybe they were going to haze or harass you, but shooting down a bunch of guys out partying in front of all of those witnesses is going to be worse than not having a gun at all. You'll definitely get hazed or harassed in jail, and you won't have the option of a firearm EVER again.

So ... my belief is, carry a gun whenever it's practical, but remember that your primary weapon is always your brain. And know you're going to be in some uncomfortable situation sometimes where the gun may be the fallback plan but probably won't come in to play.

If you do decide to draw, make your shots count and make sure you're defending your life and not responding to fear for someone who looks different than you and/or might not really be a threat.

For one thing ... if you open up on multiple people you better hope they don't have guns of their own AND that their dazed enough they don't all charge and those still standing, now ticked off, get your gun from you.

[CarlosDJackal]

Better safe than sorry. You identified a possible threat (four of them in this case) and you chose to avoid any confrontation. Our goals should always be: AVOIDANCE, DETERRENCE, and DE-ESCALATION (in sequence of importance). If you are able to meet the first goal there is no longer any need to meet the other two.

Could they have been actual threats? Quite possibly. Should you have waited to find out? Heck no!! Could you have been a little too paranoid? Who cares? Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they weren't out to get you!!

Had they gotten any closer would you have been justified in using lethal force? It all depends. The disparity of force is with them because they had you outnumbered. But even then, you had to be in fear of death or grevious bodily harm before you can use lethal force. However, the fact that you were with your girlfriend might be enough cause to think that they could have been targetting her even if it meant having to go through you.

Regardless of State code, since this is not your home (Castle Doctrine), I don't believe you have the legal recourse to stand and fight if you had the option and ability to run away. What would have been your purpose for standing your ground when you could have easily escaped (as you did)?

Just because you have a gun, it doesn't mean that you can use it to selve every problem you run into, does it? JM2CW.

NOTE: I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on the internet.

[Dwight55]

Dave, . . . while there are many ways it could be said, . . . Xavier did a real good job with these words:

"...What solves problems is accurate assessment of the situation and effective intervention. A gun only helps if there is no effective intervention available."

Avoid the gunfight or gun play if it is reasonably possible, . . . especially with your lady with you, . . . nasty things will probably happen if you lose.

You did the real smart thing, . . . into the car, . . . lock the doors, . . . and if you have it available, . . . you just might put that .45 right up front on the dash board where they will see it when you back out. Makes is easy to reach also if it is needed.

May God bless,
Dwight

[308Enfield]

SomeKid said:

The arguement then becomes...

I did not know they were dead, I simply thought they had fallen, and would get back up and attack me some more, but I could not flee with my woman because then this guy attacks us...

I know this. If it actually made it to trial, and I were on the jury, he would walk. Even if he executed the wounded with a shot to the temple. (I do not advocate this, in many Blue states this may be too much force, likely a few reds as well.)

Am I reading this right? You think shooting wounded people on the ground is ok? If you don't advocate it why make the point of saying you would approve of the action? That's not SD, that's an execution. This isn't the kind of thing I want to see on these boards, or even be associated with, it makes every gun owner look irresponsible and dangerous.

[DanV1317]

Rock on Billy IDOL! If that's the concert you're talking about, you did the right thing by being aware of the characters that are in that area. Once again if that is the concert, i know the exact location of your car and the area of the city you were in. Since i live in scranton/wilkes barre, i have done some studies into the gangs/trouble makers in the area. I have talked with local gang experts and policeman.

It seems that what you encountered was not actually a real "gang". What you encountered is worse than any gang. Instead, this is a "wanna-be" gang. There have been problems lately with kids in this area trying to mimic gangs, when in actuality, they have no clue what they are doing. They simply are reckless and try to cause havok for no reason. This is not what real gangs (bloods' and crips) do. Recent activity in this area has proved that these type of kids/punks are reckless and dangerous.

All in all, what you did was the perfect thing. It may have been better that you were not carrying! Yes, it was probably better that you were not armed. When talking to local cops, they said local punks are living by the gun. They said young kids are arested for whatever reason, and they are all carrying guns on them. If you were to present a gun, 3 other kids may have presented a gun, with no fear of shooting. This could have turned sour really quickly.

In my opinion, in this situation, Xavier said it right,

In fact, a gun often causes problems.

[gddyup]

I did not know they were dead, I simply thought they had fallen, and would get back up and attack me some more, but I could not flee with my woman because then this guy attacks us...

Unfortunately, you didn't see the 5 eyewitnesses in the garage that saw you fire on the lone individual who was left standing there, if he is no longer a threat. What's your excuse for that one?

The point of lethal force is to stop the threat. Period. That's it. Once the threat has stopped, your LEGAL right to use lethal force has ended. If you have 3 guys on the ground after being hit (if you could have hit all 3 of them without hitting a bystander... good luck with that in the surroundings where this went down) and one lone person standing there, your right to use lethal force is gone unless the last person of that group attacks you on his own. Then you can use force against him IF he poses a LETHAL threat. That will depend on the situation at that particular time. If 3 guys are on the ground and not moving and the last guy standing is not a threat, then disparity of force issues disappear along with your right to use lethal force.

As far as the ability of a jury tp decide whether or not you'd be found guilty or innocent in this case, what type of jury do you think is going to preside over that trial? One that is pro-gun and pro-2nd amendment? Good luck there. Prosecution would never allow that. You might not find someone guilty in that case but I'll wager that you're not the "normal" type person the prosecution would want to have on that jury to try and convict. Perception is reality. What the jury percieves the situation to be at the time is what they base their decision on. If that perception is that you're guilty of (insert charge here), then you're guilty. Regardless of whether or not you were justified or not...

[dave_in_delaware]

Thank you everyone who responded. I am also glad it happened the way it did. I'm not 100% sure that they weren't just doing their own thing, and unintentionally moving closer to us. I wasn't in fear of my life (or my fiancee's), but I was feeling like they were getting too close for comfort. I figured it was better to just be safe and get in the car and get in the line of cars to leave the parking garage, so that's what we did.

I guess my overall question, after reading all your responses, is at what point could I legally: 1. show my gun? (to let them know to stop advancing, that I'm armed) and, 2. draw my gun? (to get ready to defend myself and my fiancee). Keep in mind that I did see them, and they were just getting too close for my comfort zone (but not rushing up on us, or indicating they had bad intentions in any way). Where is the legal "line" between staying concealed, brandishing a weapon (to deter any possible attack), and just plain pointing a gun at someone and threatening THEM w/ bodily harm? I guess it's better to ask these questions now before it's too late and I find myself in that situation again, only next time I could be armed (CCW). Also, even though they were apparently unarmed, but yet in a group, how close do they have to be before the use of lethal force is justified? Only when I FEEL like my life or my fiancee's life is in dire jeopardy? Wouldn't that probably be too late? Again, that fine "line" is what i'm looking for here.

XavierBreath: Thanks for the very intelligent and humbling answer. A gun might have certainly been a bad thing to have in that situation. Especially with how close they were. Time would have been against me for a holstered draw (even though I practice it at home), especially against 4 young men. I try not to "what-if" too much, but this situation we were in monday night was something I hadn't thought of.

357mag: I wouldn't have shot a warning shot. I was just listing things that came to mind. There were other people in the garage, too, and people down on the street outside, so shooting in any direction other than COM at the punks could have been dangerous. Sounds like unless they were attacking us, using my gun would have been a bad idea.

Russ538: Good point, get in the car, and make THAT my weapon, with my gun as backup. LOL... interesting.

SomeKid: I'm all for criminals not repeating their offenses, but

DanV1317: Actually, it was DISTURBED (with 10 years and Il Nino). It was at the Masonic Temple. We parked down the street 2 blocks away in the Scranton Parking Authority's garage, on the 1st level up. There were quite a few "interesting" types of people there, for sure. But, there were no actual incidents that I heard of. Everyone is actually usually pretty nice, despite the heavy metal head-banger stereotypes.

Everyone: I understand your points and ideas you made. When possible, always use your main weapon (your brain) and get out of a bad situation. and basically, only draw your weapon IF you intend to use it (i.e. in fear for your life or the life of your loved one).

This has been very educational for me. Thank you all for your input. Feel free to continue posting, and respond to my additional questions. I'll be reading your responses!

[SomeKid]

Dave, you ask when would be a good time to draw. The answer is when you feel your life is in danger. Crappy answer I know, but all you can do before then is be at the ready. (Maybe put your hand near it, or depending on holster and location of gun, on the grip.) When you draw, you shoot. Do not try to be a cop who takes them all to jail while only scaring them. If you read the book First Blood, Rambo died. Don't be a Rambo.

gddy, that is what lawyers are for. Convince the jury I still percieved a lethal threat. If they can be made to understand that threat, I walk. If the lawyer fails, I meet Bubba. I am sure we have a lawyer on the board who can see the flaws and shore up the weak spots in my arguement, but you get the idea. Just because it was down to one man, doesn't mean one man cannot still be percieved as a lethal threat, especially after 3 others in his group had to be put down.

308, I clearly noted in my post I would find him not guilty, even if he executed the wounded bad guys. I have no sympathy for a street mugger, or a rapist. I do not encourage it, because in many places simply defending yourself means you will be on trial. If I were in some lawless hole like N.O., I would definatly be executing the wounded, and encouraging others to follow the same route. However, I am not, so leave the wounded for the cops. I was simply saying I personally have no problem with somebody executing a mugger/rapist. Self-defense does sometimes involve the BG becoming fertilizer.

Dave, suckes you had to drive so far for just Disturbed. Shinedown and a couple other bands are actually coming to my city here soon. Sadly, I will miss the show. Oh well, I am probably too cheap to pay for tickets anyway.

[dave_in_delaware]

SomeKid: Thanks for the follow up. Sounds to me like this concept of "wait until your life is in danger to draw" might be too late in some situations. Yes, that is crappy. I'm guessing people here would chance a "brandishing a weapon" charge if it meant lowering their chances of being attacked and possibly killed?

"For just Disturbed" ??? Are you mental? "just"? Ugh! .... For the record, I would have driven 3x as long to see DISTURBED that day. They are my and my fiancee's favorite band! They kick a$$. It was a surprise for her, since she thought they were still touring on the west coast. Actually, the whole long weekend was a surprise for her (new gun, fancy hotel room, romantic dinner, proposal/engagement ring, range time w/ new gun, concert). We drove longer (about 5.5 hours) out to Latrobe, PA when they played at the Rolling Rock Town Fair concert in July 2004. Can't wait for the Ten Thousand Fists tour when it's near our town. We'll be there!

[PythonGuy]

Per Dwight55

You did the real smart thing, . . . into the car, . . . lock the doors, . . . and if you have it available, . . . you just might put that .45 right up front on the dash board where they will see it when you back out. Makes is easy to reach also if it is needed.

There is not a dumber thing you can tell someone with a carry license then "you just might put that .45 right up front on the dash board where they will see it when you back out. Makes is easy to reach also if it is needed". That will be looked at as provacation and instigation and send you to jail fast if anything further occurs or not. Next to the guy advocating executing the wounded, you guys make gun owners look like the monsters that the liberals try to convince the general public we are. Gun owners with these attitudes should never have a gun, they make things UNsafe for all of us. Somekid, until you get arrested and put away for real, I hope you don't have access to gun or knives, you are a danger to us all.

[MattB]

I was told by my instructor to only draw to shoot. Your element of surprise is why you would have a CCW. Also, the situation could escalate if you only draw and do not fire. You should only draw if you fell serious physical harm and/or possible death at which time you should also be firing to center of mass to disable the threat. JMHO

[SomeKid]

Dave, if you like Disturbed, then power to yah. Yankees...
As for waiting till your life is in danger, I ought to clarify it a bit. Wait until it looks like, and you can prove to a third party, your life was in danger.
Example, (not realistic, but it is an example), BG draws a knife, and charges you. Do you shoot at 50 yards, or wait until he is near enough any half-wit could understand you were in peril? You don't have to wait until that imminent second where the blade is an inch from your adams apple, but you could if you really wanted to. (I would not recommend that.)

And they accuse us rednecks of being illiterate.

Python, re-read my post. I never advised him to execute the wounded. I simply said if I was on a jury, it would be fine with me if he had.

Just FYI, I do have access to guns, I am 21, and MY STATE IS SHALL ISSUE. I carry my G23 with me almost as often as I wear clothes. One of my previous jobs was a salesman. I sold knives. I have access to both guns and knives. Now, I have a question for you. Can you walk around, with a G23, with evil high-cap mags that hold more than 10 rounds, openly? Can you just for kicks order one of these http://www.eaglefirearms.net/images/AR_CAR_A2.jpg with a spare 30 round mag just because you decided one day you wanted it?

Enjoy Long Island, NY.

I love being free.

+1 to MB. If you draw, pull the trigger. Don't draw to make a point or intimidate.

[308Enfield]

As we're getting into localities I'd just like to say that I, too, am from Tennessee. I'm all in favor of CCW and self defense, but I think executing wounded people who are no longer a threat is reprehensible. The difference between giving approval of such action on a jury and doing it yourself is small; either way it is advocating murder.

If this type of attitude and public statements are welcomed on this board I'm not sure I want to remain active here. Admins - please message me with some clarification of where you stand on this in regards to the board rules. I don't want anybody who advocates murder representing either gun owners or the state of Tennessee.

[PythonGuy]

308Enfield,

That's exactly where I am coming from too. I am all for guns for self defense and sport, but actions like SomeKid and others on here talk about, is childish, immature and dangerous. Lets just hope he is talking big but not acting out, innocent people get hurt when irresponsible people flaunt their guns. The whole gun community gets lumped in with these jerks, and we all inch closer to lessened gun rights.

[JohnKSa]

Don't ever pull a gun if you don't have to.
Don't ever shoot anyone that you don't have to.

[Eghad]

You did the right thing. nuff said

[CarlosDJackal]

The arguement then becomes...

I did not know they were dead, I simply thought they had fallen, and would get back up and attack me some more, but I could not flee with my woman because then this guy attacks us...

I know this. If it actually made it to trial, and I were on the jury, he would walk. Even if he executed the wounded with a shot to the temple. (I do not advocate this, in many Blue states this may be too much force, likely a few reds as well.)

Can anyone tell I am a big on Self-Defense and making sure criminals do not re-offend?

Somekid, you're a freaking idiot. Why don't you look up what happened to Bernhard Goetz, and he didn't execute someone as you have suggested. Any semi-decent lawyer anywhere would take your statement (above) and fry you with it. It doesn't matter if you get beat the crimin charge, but you are pretty much guaranteed to loose the civil case.

I hope anyone who read the above post knows BS when they see it. And no, do not drag the body back into your house. That's another urban myth that can get you thrown into prison. JM2CW.

[NRAhab]

Even if he executed the wounded with a shot to the temple.

Cool, let's freakin' murder everyone.
[sarcasm]
Here I thought I carried a firearm for defense. Hey, I've got an idea, why don't we take your idea even further, and start killing people before they attack you? That way they'll never have the opportunity to hurt anyone! This is brilliant! Lets get all the friggin' gun owners to go around howling about self-defense and blazing away with our heaters at suspicious looking people! The world would be a safe place, Jesus would come back for 1000 years of peace, and there would be no crime!
[/sarcasm]

We have a legal system for a reason. Part of that is to make sure people don't just go dispensing their own brand of justice, like tapping a defenseless person in the head, bad guy or no.