Ohio Leo abuse of CCW carrier. - Page 5

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 11:32 AM

The term "Peace Officer" was washed down the gutter the first time a police agency bought BDU's and accepted the no knock warrant policy for the purpose of "evidence protection" for forfeiture of assets to grow their budget to buy more toys.

When I was a tiny 6 or so year old I went to my daddy and said "When I grow up I want to be either a mercenary (SoF mags in my home) or a policeman.."

He suggested I try the mercenary gig first since he would rather I took on an honest profession! As a state park ranger he was also an "auxillary" deputy. He did this in at least 2 counties of florida and what he seen was enuff to base his feelings on.

Brent

Henneman · July 22, 2011, 11:51 AM

The officer here unintentionally made a very instructive video. Police training facilities can use this for multiple instances of what not to do. Aside from the points raised in prior posts, he cut loose the suspected pimp to arrest the driver for the alleged misdemeanor. The dispatcher reports that the "pimp" gave a false name and/or birthdate. I would guess, as most probable, that he had an outstanding warrant, or two, which were more serious than the driver's transgressions.

Part of my law practice is criminal defense. I speak frequently with officers from many departments and have viewed many arrest and interrogation videos. This officer's behavior is in no way representative of what I have observed, or what has been reported to me by defendants. It may be different in larger cities, but in the jurisdictions that I am familiar with, the officers are at least civil, and the vast majority take their professional obligations as public servants seriously.

Despite the above, I am mildly surprised that the video of this didn't go intentionally missing. There are multiple opportunities for these recordings to disappear before they get into an attorney's hands. Even recordings that I would presume are damaging to my clients are frequently lost due to dead batteries or other technical glitches.

GM2 · July 22, 2011, 12:38 PM

The LEO actions in this case were wrong and disgusting and very unprofessional . However, some of the postings on this thread indicating that all LEO's are criminals and turn their backs or try to cover up for bad ones are also wrong. My opinion is not Monday morning quarterbacking as I was a LEO for 32yrs. I have seen several bad cops Fired for misconduct and some were charged with crimes. For the most part in my department I am proud to say they were very professional. Four of my fellow officers lost their lives in the line of duty and several were seriously injured. I have learned that there are those that look for the bad ones and then try to compare all LEO to them.
If I have stepped on some toes here then so be it.

Alaska444 · July 22, 2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

GM2
Junior Member

Join Date: March 31, 2011
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 7
The LEO actions in this case were wrong and disgusting and very unprofessional . However, some of the postings on this thread indicating that all LEO's are criminals and turn their backs or try to cover up for bad ones are also wrong. My opinion is not Monday morning quarterbacking as I was a LEO for 32yrs. I have seen several bad cops Fired for misconduct and some were charged with crimes. For the most part in my department I am proud to say they were very professional. Four of my fellow officers lost their lives in the line of duty and several were seriously injured. I have learned that there are those that look for the bad ones and then try to compare all LEO to them.
If I have stepped on some toes here then so be it.
__________________
[B]GM2

I am an old sheepdog

+1 GM2, I was not an LEO but I took care of quite a few in my medical practice and they all seemed dedicated and just good citizens with a difficult and thankless job. I don't care much for the ticket busting cops that just are a nuisance giving out tickets for minor violations to make quota, but it is true that the LEO's in my town put their lives on the line everyday and we should not forget that.

The key is maintaining professionalism and being able to recognize the good guy from the bad guy. That is perhaps the most difficult task to just assume we are all bad guys as this creep appears to have done.

For all those who have faithfully served as LEO's standing firm against the bad guys, thank you for your service,

God bless,

Alaska

geetarman · July 22, 2011, 01:50 PM

I have several friends who are serving officers. Bad behavior by one LEO paints all with a very broad brush.

I do not want to lump them all together. The ones I know take their obligations seriously.

That no serving officers are standing up for this guy says a lot. The bad thing is you can be sure this was not the only incident of atrocious behavior.

It could and should have seen the light of day sooner.

Geetarman

shortwave · July 22, 2011, 02:18 PM

Sorry if this has already been addressed, I've not read all five pages of posts, but on page one of this thread somebody brought up the point that the LEO's in the video could have possibly been OSP instead of Canton PD.

The officers in the vid. were NOT OSP. but in fact Canton officers.

Given the fact that there's a PD dashcam video showing the incident, its clear that at the onset of the "stop" it appears that proper procedure wasn't followed. Unless I'm not seeing something, this doesn't seem to be a random traffic stop as much as it does an inquiry of a suspicious vehicle already stopped with car occupants talking to a pedestrian which the cops may have recognized to be a hooker. Also looks as though the pedestrian(possible hooker) may have gotten out of the car as LEO was approaching blacked out.

At any rate, it seems the mouthy cop completely lost it after his partner searched the car with the legally armed cc'ing driver in the front seat and the LEO's had not properly cleared everyone(including driver) before they did the search. He was then PO'd at the driver for himself and his partners mistake.

This would make a good training vid. of what NOT to do in a lot of ways.

Cops are human like everyone else and from indicators of the vid., this cop needs to find another line of work as some of his statements seem to lean towards some job burnout.

I've been pulled over three times in Ohio in which I was armed and have never been treated with anything but respect. Furthermore, if a cop ever pulls me over, he will be informed of my weapon at the onset if I have to holler over him....and if I think for one minute he hasn't heard me I'll repeat the fact I'm armed.

I don't know how it is throughout the state of Ohio, but I can tell you in Cols.,Ohio, if you're being pulled over on a reg. traffic stop, before officer leaves cruiser, he types your Lic. plate number in his computor. If you are a CCL holder, a BIG blue screen pops up that says "WANTED" in big red letters. Same screen thats comes up for someone with warrants.
LEO then clicks the lower left hand side of screen and screen then tells LEO you have your CCL.
Don't know if Canton's PD has this capability but if so and LEO's were stopping this vehicle, seems they should have known of a possible armed driver and approached accordingly. Maybe another infraction of procedure!

IMO, this whole thing boils down to "WHERE TWO DUMMIES MET"

First dummy: the driver for not stating about his CCL and being armed.
Before all the 'ill response's' to that statement, let me explain very simply... "I don't want to be an accident".
Don't care if cop tells me to shut up or not. He'll know I'm legally armed from the onset of the stop. Period!

Second dummy:the bigmouthed cop who apparently needs to find a different line of work cause its apparent his emotional status is or has become one where he's a detriment to the rest of his dept. It happens.

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:

this cop needs to find another line of work as some of his statements seem to lean towards some job burnout.

Not until after his lengthy prison term is fulfilled if found guilty of any of the numerous felony crimes he committed in this video of his crimes.

Brent

mrray13 · July 22, 2011, 02:38 PM

I don't know what bothers me more, what the officer did in the video, or how a lot of you folks want to lump the rest of us in with him.

I'm new to law enforcement, 3 years served. But I'm not new to life, approaching 40 years old. Even in my young and dumb days, I didn't lump all cops together. There are bad ones, that is certain, but there are good ones too, of which is equally certain. In my opinion, you and you alone, are responsible for your actions, and you and you alone are accountable for them. Just because that asshat in the video isn't a good cop doesn't mean all of us aren't.

I live in Illinois, we don't have licensed/permit CC. We don't recognize any other state's permits. You know how many people I've arrested for carrying in my state from another state with a current CCP? None. None have even received a ticket. Yet, they all could have, instead, they were informed, which is something they should have done themselves beforehand, about Illinois law, and how to legally transport their firearm through the state. Yet, I don't make the news for the way I handle CCW permit holders.

Maybe I should change to fit the general perception of you folks. Or maybe I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and one day pull one of you naysayers over, and change your perception in a good way. We all aren't bad, some of us try really hard to do a job that is held in a negative light due to idiots like Harless, or whatever his name is.

You know, a lot of posts in this thread could be flipped by those of us in law enforcement. Think about it, as much as some of you think all of us are criminals and idiots, the same can be said about the general public. And we get to deal with the absolute worst of you daily, whereas you might never deal with the worst of us. But most of law enforcement believes there is good out there, and good folks, and we try our best to treat those fairly and equally. And in return, we get lumped in with the knuckleheads who do their best to make us all look bad.

For what it's worth, I'm glad I get to wear a class B BDU style pant, the extra pockets come in handy.

Off my soapbox now, flame away.

edited to add..
Harless needs to lose his job and certification. What he did, and said, was inexcuseable. I agree that he committed assault, and I agree with those who think he lost it due to his and his partner's mistakes made during this stop. They screwed the pooch on this one, and should be held responsible to the utmost of Ohio law, both civilly and criminally.

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

You know, a lot of posts in this thread could be flipped by those of us in law enforcement. Think about it, as much as some of you think all of us are criminals and idiots, the same can be said about the general public.

But there are millions more of us civilians than there are cops... And no one has to go thru qualifications training and certification to be a civilian.

I do not lump all cops into a group as criminals but I do take harsh issue with any profession that considers lying to be an acceptable business practice... I tend not to do business with companies nor employees who think it is okay to lie to me or anyone else.

Brent

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

I agree that he committed assault, and I agree with those who think he lost it due to his and his partner's mistakes made during this stop. They screwed the pooch on this one, and should be held responsible to the utmost of Ohio law, both civilly and criminally.

Would threatening to commit first degree murder simply be called assault?

I might have to give this a try as a civilian someday...

Brent

Bob M. · July 22, 2011, 02:49 PM

We are Citizens, not Civilians. LEO's are civil servants, not military.

Alaska444 · July 22, 2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

mrray13
Senior Member

Join Date: January 26, 2008
Location: deep south illinois
Posts: 387
I don't know what bothers me more, what the officer did in the video, or how a lot of you folks want to lump the rest of us in with him.

I'm new to law enforcement, 3 years served. But I'm not new to life, approaching 40 years old. Even in my young and dumb days, I didn't lump all cops together. There are bad ones, that is certain, but there are good ones too, of which is equally certain. In my opinion, you and you alone, are responsible for your actions, and you and you alone are accountable for them. Just because that asshat in the video isn't a good cop doesn't mean all of us aren't.

I live in Illinois, we don't have licensed/permit CC. We don't recognize any other state's permits. You know how many people I've arrested for carrying in my state from another state with a current CCP? None. None have even received a ticket. Yet, they all could have, instead, they were informed, which is something they should have done themselves beforehand, about Illinois law, and how to legally transport their firearm through the state. Yet, I don't make the news for the way I handle CCW permit holders.

Maybe I should change to fit the general perception of you folks. Or maybe I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and one day pull one of you naysayers over, and change your perception in a good way. We all aren't bad, some of us try really hard to do a job that is held in a negative light due to idiots like Harless, or whatever his name is.

You know, a lot of posts in this thread could be flipped by those of us in law enforcement. Think about it, as much as some of you think all of us are criminals and idiots, the same can be said about the general public. And we get to deal with the absolute worst of you daily, whereas you might never deal with the worst of us. But most of law enforcement believes there is good out there, and good folks, and we try our best to treat those fairly and equally. And in return, we get lumped in with the knuckleheads who do their best to make us all look bad.

For what it's worth, I'm glad I get to wear a class B BDU style pant, the extra pockets come in handy.

Off my soapbox now, flame away.

Once again, I believe most folks appreciate the job the LEO's do as MANY have stated on this thread. Yup, some folks have lumped al LEO's together on this thread but just let those weirdo's cast away like water off a ducks back. The point of this video is showing a bad egg in the LEO ranks and letting him get his due as he certainly will with all of the national attention.

Thank you for not locking up law abiding citizens who should have known Illinois law but didn't. The LEO has the right to make judgements at the "point of service" so to speak that keeps people out of jail for stupid actions which are truly not criminal in nature. There are too many cases of late where people are now serving time for being stupid. A warning is justified in these cases, thank you for having the courage and judgement to make the right decision right in the field. Your actions have kept several from deep, deep trouble.

I appreciate that you have been able to rise above the stereotypes of LEO's and give people the break when they need it. Lord knows we have too many folks who had no criminal intent harmed by our restrictive gun laws out of ignorance.

Stand strong my friend and don't get jaded, that is probably where the LEO in the OP went wrong and became bitter against all citizens which we all agree is an unjust action.

God bless,

Alaska

mrray13 · July 22, 2011, 02:58 PM

Brent,

Do you buy cars? You think salesman don't lie? Preachers? Teachers? Parents? Any supervisor in any field of work trying to get something done at one point or another? Seriously, everyone lies about something, somewhere, sometime during the course of their workday and lifetime. And if a policeman lying in the course of an investigation leads to the arrest of a really bad guy, is it really that big of an issue?

And by definition in Illinois, he did indeed commit assault. One could argue Aggravated Assault, and would be correct. That's just off the top of my head, and without digging through the statute book, but if you'd like, I'll do that later. Of course every state is different, and what Ohio defines it as will more then likely be different then Illinois.

Bob M...good point. I stand corrected on civilians vs citizens. However, that said, in the course of this discussion, it does help to keep thing clear,IMO, by referring to non-LEO citizens as civilians.

mrray13 · July 22, 2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska

Once again, I believe most folks appreciate the job the LEO's do as MANY have stated on this thread. Yup, some folks have lumped al LEO's together on this thread but just let those weirdo's cast away like water off a ducks back. The point of this video is showing a bad egg in the LEO ranks and letting him get his due as he certainly will with all of the national attention.

Thank you for not locking up law abiding citizens who should have known Illinois law but didn't. The LEO has the right to make judgements at the "point of service" so to speak that keeps people out of jail for stupid actions which are truly not criminal in nature. There are too many cases of late where people are now serving time for being stupid. A warning is justified in these cases, thank you for having the courage and judgement to make the right decision right in the field. Your actions have kept several from deep, deep trouble.

I appreciate that you have been able to rise above the stereotypes of LEO's and give people the break when they need it. Lord knows we have too many folks who had no criminal intent harmed by our restrictive gun laws out of ignorance.

Stand strong my friend and don't get jaded, that is probably where the LEO in the OP went wrong and became bitter against all citizens which we all agree is an unjust action.

God bless,

Alaska

Thank you. Normally, I do indeed let it run off like water. Yet, I had to say something. Too often, we get colored too quickly by the bad apples, when in fact, those are the exceptions rather then the rule.

Thanks again Alaska, and God Bless you as well.

Kent

Bob M. · July 22, 2011, 03:14 PM

Yeah, It just drives me crazy to continually see and hear this Citizen/Civilian thing all the time.

I read your post and thank you for being such an outstanding Citizen.

mrray13 · July 22, 2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob M

Yeah, It just drives me crazy to continually see and hear this Citizen/Civilian thing all the time.

I read your post and thank you for being such an outstanding Citizen.

Lol..gotcha! Thanks!

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Do you buy cars? You think salesman don't lie?

Not from dealerships or car lots because salesmen lie!

Quote:

Preachers? Teachers? Parents?

If I find out and can prove any of the above lied to me I will call them to the carpet myself and try to take it up with their superior if applicable...
If it is an individual such as a parent... I disassociate myself from them.

Quote:

Any supervisor in any field of work trying to get something done at one point or another? Seriously, everyone lies about something, somewhere, sometime during the course of their workday and lifetime.

That is a lousy way to try to condone something so heinous as having ZERO integrity.

And before "little white lie" comes up... I consider these the worst! If it so minor then it ain't worth lying about it in the first place!

And if a family member tells me to tell a caller on the phone that "I ain't home/in shower" I tell the caller... "So and So told me to tell you that they ain't home..."

I shamelessly lie to police officers when ever I feel the need... Someone trained that lying is acceptable should never expect honesty from anyone!

I do not tolerate liars, thieves or lying thieves! NEVER HAVE... NEVER WILL!!!

Now back to the case of discussion... We have a cop who has committed felony crimes and he sits at home being paid while no charges have been brought on him and his Dept. is lying to the taxpayers by having him on "PAID SICK LEAVE" rather than an "ADMINISTRATIVE SUSPENSION".

If this cop committed the crime of stealing from the evidence room or selling dept. property, anyone think they do not have a means to hold his pay and suspend him pending the completion of the investigation? I really think they have some sort of means to handle this in the CBA contract other than letting a criminal walk free without even a bail bond to draw full pay while sittin' on his butt!

Brent

JN01 · July 22, 2011, 05:04 PM

It might be interesting to see what else was on his cruiser cam.

Wagonman · July 22, 2011, 05:16 PM

It's not lying it's called sales puffery.

The difference between what this guy did and stealing from evidence room et al is that while unprofessional and perhaps criminal it was in the course of his duties and there is a procedure to fact find and he has the presumption of innocence while the investigation is going on.

I love the fact that there are thousands of interactions between Cops and offenders a week and in the rare instance of bad acting on the part of the Cop you get the Cop bashers out of the woodwork.

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 05:25 PM

JNO1, Or the nice reading of his 16 IA investigation reports...

Brent

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

It's not lying it's called sales puffery.

In the law enforcement world lying is called that too?

Quote:

The difference between what this guy did and stealing from evidence room et al is that while unprofessional and perhaps criminal it was in the course of his duties and there is a procedure to fact find and he has the presumption of innocence while the investigation is going on.

So you are implying that what most see as a heinous felony is not important enough if it is an officer to deserve UNPAID ADMINISTRATIVE SUSPENSION/LEAVE? Let alone already have criminal charges applied, been booked before decision bail is determined as any citizen from any other sort of trade would see...

Quote:

I love the fact that there are thousands of interactions between Cops and offenders a week and in the rare instance of bad acting on the part of the Cop you get the Cop bashers out of the woodwork.

First of all... the thousands of contacts before one such as this matters naught to me.
In those interactions it is either an officer dealing with a criminal properly or a decent officer dealing with an innocent person in a fair and polite way.

As for cop bashers, I am not one in any way shape nor form. I treat any and all honest, fair officers honorably and respectfully.

Brent

shortwave · July 22, 2011, 05:59 PM

I know this thread was not started to be turned into a "cop bashing" thread nor was it started to be turned into a thread insinuating its ok for a cop to lie and his/her partner to cover the lie.
Hope thread doesn't turn that way or it won't be open long and rightfully so.

Clumping all cops 'as bad' is about as assinine as saying there aren't any dirty cops... and IMO, an apology is due to the good cops from those that are guilty of implying/feel all cops are bad. They aren't.

I don't see any posts by hogdogs insinuating all cops are bad but rather wanting this cop judged the same as any citizen would be. Nothing wrong with that IMO and thats not cop bashing. Just cause you tote a badge doesn't give you the right to threaten to kill anybody and if anything you should be held at a higher standard.

Also, I don't see where any LEO posting on this or other sites I've visited, having posted anything trying to defend this idiots tactics or treatment of the driver. All LEO postings I've read and the LEO's I've talked to(which includes family) are PO'd cause the actions of this kind of moron makes their job that much harder.

I asked a couple of them about the "paid sick leave" status and none of them work for the City of Canton PD so they don't know the specifics of Canton PD's uniformed contract.

One LEO asked me if the officer in question(the idiot on the vid) went out on sick leave himself following the incident fearing the departmental consequences he knew he was going to face after the vid. went to the drivers attorney. I didn't know the answer to that.
He followed up by saying if that was the case, this officer will face the rath of the Dept. when he returned to duty.

He also stated that many depts. will not put their LEO's on paid sick/vacation leave in a situation where there is possible disciplinary actions pending. Thats usually paid Administrative Leave or desk duty(depending on severity of case) till IA finishs their investigation.

I've seen that happen before where a gov't employee is put on paid admin. leave until their investigation/hearing is complete and if the defendent was found guilty of the infraction they never have to pay back the money they were paid while on admin. leave. Witnessed a few cases where, due to hearing postponements, the defendent that was clearly guilty as charged,stayed out on paid admin. leave for better than a year. That I don't agree with. Our tax dollars at work.

Webleymkv · July 22, 2011, 08:28 PM

I've pretty much kept my opinions to myself thus far, but in the interest of preventing this thread from taking a turn for the worst (and thereby being locked) I think a few things need to be said. There is a difference, I think, between outright cop bashing and holding cops to a different standard than the rest of the population. Sweeping generalizations about police officers is, of course, stupid as are nearly all sweeping generalizations. Cops are people too and just like any other group of people you'll have good ones and bad ones. To judge the entire profession based solely on the actions of the lowest denominator is an exceedingly bad idea.

I do not, however, feel that it is wrong to hold police to a higher standard than the population at large. Police officers are entrusted by the rest of the populace with certain powers and privileges unique to their profession; it is, in my view, absurd to think that these expanded powers and privileges do not come with a greater degree of responsibility and more severe consequences for irresponsibility. Simply put, a police officer must, if his authority is to be respected, set an example for the rest of the community.

The infuriating aspect of this incident, for me at least, is not so much what the officer did, though his actions are certainly reprehensible, but rather than he used his position of authority to do what he did. The root of the problem, as I see it, is that all too often police are given a free pass simply because they are police.

Let's be honest for a moment, how many times have we all seen a cop turn on his lights and sirens just so he can get ahead of traffic or run a red light? How many cops do we all know who refuse to write another cop a ticket, but will happily write one for someone else? How often do we see a cop park in a no-parking zone for no other reason than that he doesn't want to walk as far? I know that not all cops partake or even condone these sorts of things, but enough do that it's not an uncommon occurrence. These types of things are allowed to occur almost completely unopposed, and then the good cops wonder why, when something like this particular incident occurs, they get lumped in with the bad cops.

In this particular case, many of us cannot help but wonder how many times this officer has pulled similar stunts, getting a bit bolder each time, until he finally crossed so far over the line that it couldn't be ignored any longer. In watching this video, the officer in question appeared over-the-top and unprofessional from the outset. I cannot help but wonder how many times he's verbally assaulted someone either too meek to speak out about it or someone who he was able to come up with a legitimate charge against (in which case there is still no call for such behavior IMHO) and thus discredit. People who like to throw their weight around, as this officer obviously does, don't generally start out as "in your face" as he was in this particular incident. Such people, instead, seem to push the limit just a bit more each time until something of this sort takes place.

As I said before, it is wrong to generalize cops based on the actions of the bad ones. However, it is also unreasonable for cops to expect not to be met with suspicion when many of their fellow officers are allowed to continue their bad behavior unchecked until it can no longer be swept under the rug. For the good cops out there, thank you for your integrity; we need more officers like yourself. However, if you want the cop bashing to stop, I suggest that you might want to start by ensuring that your own house is in order.

hogdogs · July 22, 2011, 09:10 PM

Webley, There is not one single thing in there that I do not agree with 100%.

With the 16 I.A. reports in his file I am betting dollars against doughnuts that he wasn't written up every time he exuded this sort of disrespect only because he felt the veil of protection granted by the authority and union.

Brent

armoredman · July 22, 2011, 10:04 PM

I am in the middle, professionally speaking, not being supportive of this individual at all, but being 10 years corrections, the red headed step children of LE, not a street cop, but still in the genre, so to speak. With that viewpoint, I found this person to be reprehensible, his actions criminal, and if he were an officer under my command, he would have been pulled from duty, placed under administrative investigation immediately and a request would have gone in for immediate suspension from duty as a danger to himself and others, as provided by policy. I have requested more than one investigation for bad behavior/potentially criminal actions in my 7 years as a supervisor.
The union did get it that officers who are investigated and placed on leave must be on paid leave, as they have not yet been convicted of any crime or depertment related malfeasance.
The end game to this scenario is clear, the former officer will be terminated, and the citizen illegally detained and searched will be offered a settlement. the officer will probably be held to be immune to personal prosecution, but the citizen may be able to press civil charges after he is terminated - unsure of Ohio law.
I also must state that I have never been treated with this type of disrespect by an Arizona LEO when a private citizen carrying legally.

July 22, 2011, 12:38 PM	#103
GM2 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: Southeast, USA Posts: 350	The LEO actions in this case were wrong and disgusting and very unprofessional . However, some of the postings on this thread indicating that all LEO's are criminals and turn their backs or try to cover up for bad ones are also wrong. My opinion is not Monday morning quarterbacking as I was a LEO for 32yrs. I have seen several bad cops Fired for misconduct and some were charged with crimes. For the most part in my department I am proud to say they were very professional. Four of my fellow officers lost their lives in the line of duty and several were seriously injured. I have learned that there are those that look for the bad ones and then try to compare all LEO to them. If I have stepped on some toes here then so be it. __________________ Good character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking.

July 22, 2011, 02:49 PM	#111
Bob M. Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 47	Citizen, not Civilian We are Citizens, not Civilians. LEO's are civil servants, not military.

July 22, 2011, 03:14 PM	#115
Bob M. Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 47	MrRay13 Yeah, It just drives me crazy to continually see and hear this Citizen/Civilian thing all the time. I read your post and thank you for being such an outstanding Citizen.

July 22, 2011, 05:59 PM	#122
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	I know this thread was not started to be turned into a "cop bashing" thread nor was it started to be turned into a thread insinuating its ok for a cop to lie and his/her partner to cover the lie. Hope thread doesn't turn that way or it won't be open long and rightfully so. Clumping all cops 'as bad' is about as assinine as saying there aren't any dirty cops... and IMO, an apology is due to the good cops from those that are guilty of implying/feel all cops are bad. They aren't. I don't see any posts by hogdogs insinuating all cops are bad but rather wanting this cop judged the same as any citizen would be. Nothing wrong with that IMO and thats not cop bashing. Just cause you tote a badge doesn't give you the right to threaten to kill anybody and if anything you should be held at a higher standard. Also, I don't see where any LEO posting on this or other sites I've visited, having posted anything trying to defend this idiots tactics or treatment of the driver. All LEO postings I've read and the LEO's I've talked to(which includes family) are PO'd cause the actions of this kind of moron makes their job that much harder. I asked a couple of them about the "paid sick leave" status and none of them work for the City of Canton PD so they don't know the specifics of Canton PD's uniformed contract. One LEO asked me if the officer in question(the idiot on the vid) went out on sick leave himself following the incident fearing the departmental consequences he knew he was going to face after the vid. went to the drivers attorney. I didn't know the answer to that. He followed up by saying if that was the case, this officer will face the rath of the Dept. when he returned to duty. He also stated that many depts. will not put their LEO's on paid sick/vacation leave in a situation where there is possible disciplinary actions pending. Thats usually paid Administrative Leave or desk duty(depending on severity of case) till IA finishs their investigation. I've seen that happen before where a gov't employee is put on paid admin. leave until their investigation/hearing is complete and if the defendent was found guilty of the infraction they never have to pay back the money they were paid while on admin. leave. Witnessed a few cases where, due to hearing postponements, the defendent that was clearly guilty as charged,stayed out on paid admin. leave for better than a year. That I don't agree with. Our tax dollars at work. Last edited by shortwave; July 22, 2011 at 06:39 PM.

July 22, 2011, 11:32 AM	#101
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	The term "Peace Officer" was washed down the gutter the first time a police agency bought BDU's and accepted the no knock warrant policy for the purpose of "evidence protection" for forfeiture of assets to grow their budget to buy more toys. When I was a tiny 6 or so year old I went to my daddy and said "When I grow up I want to be either a mercenary (SoF mags in my home) or a policeman.." He suggested I try the mercenary gig first since he would rather I took on an honest profession! As a state park ranger he was also an "auxillary" deputy. He did this in at least 2 counties of florida and what he seen was enuff to base his feelings on. Brent

July 22, 2011, 11:51 AM	#102
Henneman Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Northwest Wisconsin Posts: 20	The officer here unintentionally made a very instructive video. Police training facilities can use this for multiple instances of what not to do. Aside from the points raised in prior posts, he cut loose the suspected pimp to arrest the driver for the alleged misdemeanor. The dispatcher reports that the "pimp" gave a false name and/or birthdate. I would guess, as most probable, that he had an outstanding warrant, or two, which were more serious than the driver's transgressions. Part of my law practice is criminal defense. I speak frequently with officers from many departments and have viewed many arrest and interrogation videos. This officer's behavior is in no way representative of what I have observed, or what has been reported to me by defendants. It may be different in larger cities, but in the jurisdictions that I am familiar with, the officers are at least civil, and the vast majority take their professional obligations as public servants seriously. Despite the above, I am mildly surprised that the video of this didn't go intentionally missing. There are multiple opportunities for these recordings to disappear before they get into an attorney's hands. Even recordings that I would presume are damaging to my clients are frequently lost due to dead batteries or other technical glitches.

July 22, 2011, 01:50 PM	#105
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	I have several friends who are serving officers. Bad behavior by one LEO paints all with a very broad brush. I do not want to lump them all together. The ones I know take their obligations seriously. That no serving officers are standing up for this guy says a lot. The bad thing is you can be sure this was not the only incident of atrocious behavior. It could and should have seen the light of day sooner. Geetarman

July 22, 2011, 02:18 PM	#106
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Sorry if this has already been addressed, I've not read all five pages of posts, but on page one of this thread somebody brought up the point that the LEO's in the video could have possibly been OSP instead of Canton PD. The officers in the vid. were NOT OSP. but in fact Canton officers. Given the fact that there's a PD dashcam video showing the incident, its clear that at the onset of the "stop" it appears that proper procedure wasn't followed. Unless I'm not seeing something, this doesn't seem to be a random traffic stop as much as it does an inquiry of a suspicious vehicle already stopped with car occupants talking to a pedestrian which the cops may have recognized to be a hooker. Also looks as though the pedestrian(possible hooker) may have gotten out of the car as LEO was approaching blacked out. At any rate, it seems the mouthy cop completely lost it after his partner searched the car with the legally armed cc'ing driver in the front seat and the LEO's had not properly cleared everyone(including driver) before they did the search. He was then PO'd at the driver for himself and his partners mistake. This would make a good training vid. of what NOT to do in a lot of ways. Cops are human like everyone else and from indicators of the vid., this cop needs to find another line of work as some of his statements seem to lean towards some job burnout. I've been pulled over three times in Ohio in which I was armed and have never been treated with anything but respect. Furthermore, if a cop ever pulls me over, he will be informed of my weapon at the onset if I have to holler over him....and if I think for one minute he hasn't heard me I'll repeat the fact I'm armed. I don't know how it is throughout the state of Ohio, but I can tell you in Cols.,Ohio, if you're being pulled over on a reg. traffic stop, before officer leaves cruiser, he types your Lic. plate number in his computor. If you are a CCL holder, a BIG blue screen pops up that says "WANTED" in big red letters. Same screen thats comes up for someone with warrants. LEO then clicks the lower left hand side of screen and screen then tells LEO you have your CCL. Don't know if Canton's PD has this capability but if so and LEO's were stopping this vehicle, seems they should have known of a possible armed driver and approached accordingly. Maybe another infraction of procedure! IMO, this whole thing boils down to "WHERE TWO DUMMIES MET" First dummy: the driver for not stating about his CCL and being armed. Before all the 'ill response's' to that statement, let me explain very simply... "I don't want to be an accident". Don't care if cop tells me to shut up or not. He'll know I'm legally armed from the onset of the stop. Period! Second dummy:the bigmouthed cop who apparently needs to find a different line of work cause its apparent his emotional status is or has become one where he's a detriment to the rest of his dept. It happens.

July 22, 2011, 02:38 PM	#108
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	I don't know what bothers me more, what the officer did in the video, or how a lot of you folks want to lump the rest of us in with him. I'm new to law enforcement, 3 years served. But I'm not new to life, approaching 40 years old. Even in my young and dumb days, I didn't lump all cops together. There are bad ones, that is certain, but there are good ones too, of which is equally certain. In my opinion, you and you alone, are responsible for your actions, and you and you alone are accountable for them. Just because that asshat in the video isn't a good cop doesn't mean all of us aren't. I live in Illinois, we don't have licensed/permit CC. We don't recognize any other state's permits. You know how many people I've arrested for carrying in my state from another state with a current CCP? None. None have even received a ticket. Yet, they all could have, instead, they were informed, which is something they should have done themselves beforehand, about Illinois law, and how to legally transport their firearm through the state. Yet, I don't make the news for the way I handle CCW permit holders. Maybe I should change to fit the general perception of you folks. Or maybe I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and one day pull one of you naysayers over, and change your perception in a good way. We all aren't bad, some of us try really hard to do a job that is held in a negative light due to idiots like Harless, or whatever his name is. You know, a lot of posts in this thread could be flipped by those of us in law enforcement. Think about it, as much as some of you think all of us are criminals and idiots, the same can be said about the general public. And we get to deal with the absolute worst of you daily, whereas you might never deal with the worst of us. But most of law enforcement believes there is good out there, and good folks, and we try our best to treat those fairly and equally. And in return, we get lumped in with the knuckleheads who do their best to make us all look bad. For what it's worth, I'm glad I get to wear a class B BDU style pant, the extra pockets come in handy. Off my soapbox now, flame away. edited to add.. Harless needs to lose his job and certification. What he did, and said, was inexcuseable. I agree that he committed assault, and I agree with those who think he lost it due to his and his partner's mistakes made during this stop. They screwed the pooch on this one, and should be held responsible to the utmost of Ohio law, both civilly and criminally.

July 22, 2011, 02:58 PM	#113
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	Brent, Do you buy cars? You think salesman don't lie? Preachers? Teachers? Parents? Any supervisor in any field of work trying to get something done at one point or another? Seriously, everyone lies about something, somewhere, sometime during the course of their workday and lifetime. And if a policeman lying in the course of an investigation leads to the arrest of a really bad guy, is it really that big of an issue? And by definition in Illinois, he did indeed commit assault. One could argue Aggravated Assault, and would be correct. That's just off the top of my head, and without digging through the statute book, but if you'd like, I'll do that later. Of course every state is different, and what Ohio defines it as will more then likely be different then Illinois. Bob M...good point. I stand corrected on civilians vs citizens. However, that said, in the course of this discussion, it does help to keep thing clear,IMO, by referring to non-LEO citizens as civilians.

July 22, 2011, 05:04 PM	#118
JN01 Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2005 Location: E Tennessee Posts: 828	It might be interesting to see what else was on his cruiser cam.

July 22, 2011, 05:16 PM	#119
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	It's not lying it's called sales puffery. The difference between what this guy did and stealing from evidence room et al is that while unprofessional and perhaps criminal it was in the course of his duties and there is a procedure to fact find and he has the presumption of innocence while the investigation is going on. I love the fact that there are thousands of interactions between Cops and offenders a week and in the rare instance of bad acting on the part of the Cop you get the Cop bashers out of the woodwork.

July 22, 2011, 05:25 PM	#120
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	JNO1, Or the nice reading of his 16 IA investigation reports... Brent

July 22, 2011, 08:28 PM	#123
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	I've pretty much kept my opinions to myself thus far, but in the interest of preventing this thread from taking a turn for the worst (and thereby being locked) I think a few things need to be said. There is a difference, I think, between outright cop bashing and holding cops to a different standard than the rest of the population. Sweeping generalizations about police officers is, of course, stupid as are nearly all sweeping generalizations. Cops are people too and just like any other group of people you'll have good ones and bad ones. To judge the entire profession based solely on the actions of the lowest denominator is an exceedingly bad idea. I do not, however, feel that it is wrong to hold police to a higher standard than the population at large. Police officers are entrusted by the rest of the populace with certain powers and privileges unique to their profession; it is, in my view, absurd to think that these expanded powers and privileges do not come with a greater degree of responsibility and more severe consequences for irresponsibility. Simply put, a police officer must, if his authority is to be respected, set an example for the rest of the community. The infuriating aspect of this incident, for me at least, is not so much what the officer did, though his actions are certainly reprehensible, but rather than he used his position of authority to do what he did. The root of the problem, as I see it, is that all too often police are given a free pass simply because they are police. Let's be honest for a moment, how many times have we all seen a cop turn on his lights and sirens just so he can get ahead of traffic or run a red light? How many cops do we all know who refuse to write another cop a ticket, but will happily write one for someone else? How often do we see a cop park in a no-parking zone for no other reason than that he doesn't want to walk as far? I know that not all cops partake or even condone these sorts of things, but enough do that it's not an uncommon occurrence. These types of things are allowed to occur almost completely unopposed, and then the good cops wonder why, when something like this particular incident occurs, they get lumped in with the bad cops. In this particular case, many of us cannot help but wonder how many times this officer has pulled similar stunts, getting a bit bolder each time, until he finally crossed so far over the line that it couldn't be ignored any longer. In watching this video, the officer in question appeared over-the-top and unprofessional from the outset. I cannot help but wonder how many times he's verbally assaulted someone either too meek to speak out about it or someone who he was able to come up with a legitimate charge against (in which case there is still no call for such behavior IMHO) and thus discredit. People who like to throw their weight around, as this officer obviously does, don't generally start out as "in your face" as he was in this particular incident. Such people, instead, seem to push the limit just a bit more each time until something of this sort takes place. As I said before, it is wrong to generalize cops based on the actions of the bad ones. However, it is also unreasonable for cops to expect not to be met with suspicion when many of their fellow officers are allowed to continue their bad behavior unchecked until it can no longer be swept under the rug. For the good cops out there, thank you for your integrity; we need more officers like yourself. However, if you want the cop bashing to stop, I suggest that you might want to start by ensuring that your own house is in order.

July 22, 2011, 09:10 PM	#124
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Webley, There is not one single thing in there that I do not agree with 100%. With the 16 I.A. reports in his file I am betting dollars against doughnuts that he wasn't written up every time he exuded this sort of disrespect only because he felt the veil of protection granted by the authority and union. Brent

July 22, 2011, 10:04 PM	#125
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	I am in the middle, professionally speaking, not being supportive of this individual at all, but being 10 years corrections, the red headed step children of LE, not a street cop, but still in the genre, so to speak. With that viewpoint, I found this person to be reprehensible, his actions criminal, and if he were an officer under my command, he would have been pulled from duty, placed under administrative investigation immediately and a request would have gone in for immediate suspension from duty as a danger to himself and others, as provided by policy. I have requested more than one investigation for bad behavior/potentially criminal actions in my 7 years as a supervisor. The union did get it that officers who are investigated and placed on leave must be on paid leave, as they have not yet been convicted of any crime or depertment related malfeasance. The end game to this scenario is clear, the former officer will be terminated, and the citizen illegally detained and searched will be offered a settlement. the officer will probably be held to be immune to personal prosecution, but the citizen may be able to press civil charges after he is terminated - unsure of Ohio law. I also must state that I have never been treated with this type of disrespect by an Arizona LEO when a private citizen carrying legally.