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November 15, 2017, 11:27 AM | #126 | |
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November 15, 2017, 11:31 AM | #127 |
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Honestly, I have an slightly-irrational fear of running out of ammo.
And I carry a Glock, so it's not like I'm afraid of ruining the finish by beating someone to death with it. But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. |
November 15, 2017, 02:59 PM | #128 |
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I will repeat a statement I made, in 1984, I had just been elected to the board of IALEFI, The International Association Of Firearms Instructors.
And as a part owner, of Practical Pistols Inc. Out of Toronto. We had purchased 10 Glock 17s, direct from Austria. Yes, we were the first to import Glocks into North America! Police were carrying mostly Mod 10 .38 Special, Revolvers, 6 shot revolvers. A fine weapon. Against a Glock 17, with 18 rounds capacity, not so much. And a 2 second reload, with 17 further rounds, ready to go, impressive. The President of the Board of IALEFI, at that time, was most likely expecting a job with S&W when he retired from the Police. Was not impressed with the statement I coined, at my first board meeting. "MORE IS BETTER, ALWAYS." I believe this is were Spray and Pray was invented, I think! Many years later, Glock was King of Law Enforcement sales. A fact. Of course, not made here, did not help! Same as that wonderful British invention, at the end of the second world war WW11. The Bull Pup Rifle, the EM2? But the most important part of that package, the .280 cartridge! Was swept aside with the much too heavy .308, or 7.62X51 that was the American round. There is a really fine round, for Personel Defence now emerging, from India no less! The 5.56X30 this round is lighter overall than the 5.56X45 service round most everyone carries now, less recoil, and good out to 300M. The carbine the Indians have produced to fire this round weighs in at 6 lbs. and requires no oil! Of course, every Police Officer, who this weapon is aimed at (Excuse the Pun) will put a couple of drops of oil on it! JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine Last edited by Brit; November 15, 2017 at 03:10 PM. |
November 15, 2017, 09:45 PM | #129 | |
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https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=328876 The NRA study kind of flies in the face of high round count.
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November 16, 2017, 12:03 AM | #130 | |
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Anyway, one of the shooters, after the action, swore he only shot once. The video showed that he not only shot twice, he actually killed a hog with each shot. I don't think people are at all likely to count their shots accurately under high stress.
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November 16, 2017, 03:55 PM | #131 |
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Truck Guns
And this was in Texas.....
I participate heavily on another private board that is centred on the profession I am a part of. A member there started a thread about having two Glock pistols stolen from the center console of his two parked vehicles. I took the poster to task for leaving guns effectively unsecured in the vehicles. That poster got one of the two pistols back, the other had already been sold on the street by the teenagers who broke in to his vehicles. Was amazed at the responses, about 4-1 against my position that it is the owners responsibility to properly secure weapons. The center console of a locked vehicle is not secure. My last post in that thread mentioned there might even be a little blood on the one Glock that was not recovered. If he should ever get it back. The bad guys don't go to the LGS to buy their guns. The irresponsible owner bears at least some blame should that stolen Glock be used in a crime. Very few gun folks on that board. Amazed at the responses I got.
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November 16, 2017, 03:59 PM | #132 |
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Nanuk.
That .280 round was a good idea, I thought? Bigger is not better when you have to carry the Bloody ammo! Except for the horrendous Indian crappy demo. Yanks do these better. My thoughts are for a Police Carbine. You just can not beat the magazine that fits in the pistol grip for fumble-free mag changes. Red dot sight, that is also a laser pointer. Perfect for Cops. And the Boron coating, does not require oil? (mind you I would have to add a couple of drops!) A couple of these 2500fps 5.56 HP in the chest, from up to 200m away? They go through body armour, plus 1/8"th mild steel? Beats your duty pistol, yes? I think no full auto though. Modify to get lock back on last round fired. Collapsable stock. Neat little canvas sling. And way better than 9mm. |
November 17, 2017, 01:33 AM | #133 | |
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November 17, 2017, 02:36 PM | #134 | |||||
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November 17, 2017, 02:51 PM | #135 | |
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November 18, 2017, 11:38 PM | #136 |
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In my view, it comes down to percentages. Watch those ACP videos. In the overwhelming majority of them, the BGs panic and flee after a couple of shots.
Carrying 6 rounds (ASSUMING you can shoot) is sufficient for, let's say, 92% of your possible deadly force self defense situations. Please note, I'm talking about civilians on the street, not jewelry store owners in Detroit, or police officers or SWAT teams. Carrying 10 rounds kicks it up to, say, 97.8%. 15 rounds, 98.4%. A 2nd 15 round magazine, 99.5%. A full auto, 99.99% A grenade launcher.... I'm just making up those numbers, but, well, you get my drift.... My 9mm Walther P99AS has a capacity of 15+1. However, in my normal everyday concealed carry, I usually just load it with 10 rounds (9+1) of 124 gr. +P Gold Dot, because for me the reduced weight makes a noticeable difference in comfort. I'm OK with that. I'm good and fast with this gun, and I know that in my normal, everyday life, 10 rounds will be more than enough to get me out of virtually any situation I might find myself in. Yes, there are exceptions, of course, but they are so improbable I don't feel like I need to walk around prepared for them. And certainly, some people live, work or travel in environments where those percentages are different, and they may be justified in carrying more capability. Even I sometimes carry 15+1 in unique situations. So, as I said, I think it all comes down to percentages and what you're personally comfortable with. |
November 19, 2017, 01:29 AM | #137 |
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Did a lot of scenario based training the other day.
In one scenario we come up on a vehicle where the driver jumps out and starts shooting an AR rifle back at us while we are sitting in our vehicles and he is running around. While I was a little hamstrung by the large mask/ helmet my accuracy was horrible. I managed one hit out of a 30 round AR magazine at a range of 50 feet (while seated in a car using the dash for support) on a man sized target. A second shooter came out of the passenger side and after transitioning to the pistol managed three hits out of 17 at the same range (while out of the vehicle moving/ duck and cover). A less than 10% hit rate. My results were typical for the group. I was lucky that the bad guy was poorly trained. He had zero hits. Can't always count on that.
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November 19, 2017, 08:26 AM | #138 | ||
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I speak from experience, US Army, Military Police, Ft Worth, TX Police, US Border Patrol, decades worth. Training and a cool head will always win over capacity, always. Quote:
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November 19, 2017, 09:13 AM | #139 | |||
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Carrying more rounds is sufficient for a slightly larger majority, and so on. I don't realistically expect to be in a situation where my own 10 rounds wouldn't be enough. It's possible, of course. Anything's possible. So, as I said, it's a matter of what level of capability you're comfortable with. Quote:
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November 19, 2017, 11:00 AM | #140 | |
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November 19, 2017, 12:30 PM | #141 |
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I'd say the potential for a round in a magazine or cylinder changing the outcome of a violent encounter decreases from the first few to the last few. That is the bottom round in your seventeen round magazine is less likely to change the outcome of a violent encounter than the first or second round. But if you do need that last round in your seventeen round magazine, you probably really need it.
I generally carry a five shot J frame snubby at work as a greasemonkey, not because it's the best choice in a violent encounter, but because it conceals well and it doesn't interfere with my work. I'd like to carry a larger handgun with more capacity and I'm experimenting with a single stack auto and a six shot revolver. It's not a problem for me to carry a 12 shot g26 with a spare g17 magazine when I'm not working but I'm thinking that having one carry method/firearm outweighs the extra capacity and shootability that the larger handgun brings for now. |
November 20, 2017, 09:49 AM | #142 |
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Why focus on when everything goes right? 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 feet away, and in CandyLand?
We carry a gun in the first place for when things go wrong. When they go wrong, they go very wrong. Especially if we get a visit from our good friend Murphy. We prepare and set out to prepare for worst case scenario. Trying to cover all bases, as many as we can fathom. So why sell yourself short on the notion that you'll only need 3-4 rounds? By that logic, loading a magazine 5 rounds deep should be optimal right? Why load it up in the first place? You car is on empty but where you have to go, in theory can be reached with a half tank of gasoline, so do you not fill it up anyways? I've touch enough on that portion. Now for my second portion. Things to consider.
Those are just some right off the top of my head that I can think of on the fly. There are many more that they've covered in classes. You need to remember the reality of things. They have the drop on you. They chose you while you're standing at the ATM, walking to your car, going into your home from your driveway, or while walking in an outdoor mall. We're simply going about our daily lives and they've been the one to always choose their victims. Don't let them label you a victim. Come prepared as you should. Nothing about this is black and white. Carry enough gun. 9mm in the double digits or a single stack 9mm with a spare magazine or two. Carry medical as well. A tourniquet or something. Chances are, you may also wind up hurt. And train, train, train. |
November 20, 2017, 09:13 PM | #143 | |
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November 23, 2017, 01:11 PM | #144 | |
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I am 100% in agreement with your post. You cannot ever have too many rounds availble when it`s for real. Unless you are a seasoned lawman you do not know how you will react. As we have seen in the videos, even the best shooter will probably miss his target when under that much stress. |
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November 24, 2017, 03:07 PM | #145 |
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Interesting information from Ken Hackathorn in the March 2017 issue of SWAT Magazine.
Dave Morelli's article entitled "Training for the Real World" was a review of the Ken Hackathorn Firearms Instructor Course. It's a worthwhile read. Under the subtopic of "Number of Shots Fired", Morelli notes that Hackathorn makes the distinction between "shootings" where there is only one person firing and a "gunfight" where there are bullets going in at least two directions. In "shootings", Hackathorn asserts that one to three rounds is the typical ammunition expenditure--this is the figure we're all familiar with from police shooting statistics. In "gunfights", however, he makes the assertion that "magazines will be emptied". This is an interesting distinction, and one that is not often made. We know that not all police shootings (the primary source of this type of information) involve situations where both the officer and attacker are actively firing a weapon. The attacker may be unarmed, or armed with something other than a firearm. Or the attacker may have a firearm but can't/doesn't actually fire shots before being neutralized. It makes sense that a situation where only one person actively uses a firearm that fewer shots would be required to end the encounter, but it is informative to see the two types of engagements explicitly separated and information on shots fired provided for both types.
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November 24, 2017, 06:16 PM | #146 |
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Those are excellent points. Lots of us had said that there was the statistical misinterpretation of the average as always happening and ignoring the extreme tail of the shots fired continuum. The point being that we had the single mugger be gone fight vs. the intense critical incident. It's been said before but we continually get folks who harp on the average and ignore the extremes, so JohnKSa reinforces that excellent point in his post.
Thus we get folks who carry: 1. Five is enough - but acknowledge they do it for convenience but accept the extreme risk as a downside of convenience. 2. The folks who carry a semi with a larger capacity and reloads. 3. The five is enough folks who don't understand the dynamics and mock those who carry more and say silly things like they are not competent to be in an intensive incident so why bother with more or if you can't do the job in five, you are blah, blah.
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November 25, 2017, 08:32 AM | #147 |
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I think having extra ammunition in the gun may also change the way a defender addresses the threat even if a lot of shots don't get fired. If a defender knows they have twelve or fifteen rounds in the gun, they might act to end the threat more quickly than the defender worried that they might be left holding an empty J frame, even if they both fire a similar number of shots in the end.
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November 29, 2017, 08:45 AM | #148 | |
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November 30, 2017, 11:01 AM | #149 |
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Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible? six My bad, poster claimed later truck was locked, not the console. A locked vehicle is not a secure place to store firearms. It's irresponsible. The police recovered 6 other guns from this group of teenagers. Some of the guns they had stolen had been sold, including one of the two Glocks. These were 16 YO kids and they had no trouble breaking in to a locked vehicle, it's not esp. difficult. Not much different with a locked console. Center consoles are all plastic, even if both the truck and the console is locked, the weapon is not secure.
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November 30, 2017, 11:42 AM | #150 | |
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If your out of the fight when you're out of rounds you weren't in the fight to begin with. |
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