Reports of "Militia Takeover" in Oregon

[zincwarrior]

Quote:
The man killed had 11 kids, per the news. Guess he forgot about his priorities.
Productive comment. He said he was willing to die for his cause and I have to give some respect for following through on that, even if I don't support them.

Those arrested are claiming he had his hands in the air unarmed and was shot in the face. I don't really believe that, or at least that it was that simple, but I am sure many will. I don't find it impossible either. I see why they did not want to interdict at the ranch with news cameras rolling, but this undocumented death may feed the fire, not put it out. Those in the facility have indicated they aren't intimidated and will continue their action. I am willing to bet they will be much more interested in assistance from more radical groups they previously refused, and they will be on high alert just waiting for something to happen. You get enough people on edge like that and something will happen.

Maybe there were body/cruiser cams in use.

At least things have not escalated today.

Whats the downside? Lets assume they get 200 persons with interesting viewpoints to show up. Now they have smoked out 200 potential terrorists who can be watched or dealt with out in the middle of nowhere if they start to get violent.

Let them aggregate and continue to just provide surveillance. They'll go home and can be watched thereafter, or if these potential terrorists get violent they can be arrested without loss of life or harm of bystanders.

[kilimanjaro]

I'm not buying the hands-up claim, or 120 rounds fired, none of it, and certainly not some execution claim. The cars contained six people, you fire off 120 rounds and one dead, one wounded lightly? With 5 living witnesses? This is the the kind of wacko conspiracy stuff that started this whole thing.

I'll wait for the video.

They deluded themselves into thinking their conspiracy was a blow for freedom, all they accomplished was to set themselves back and destroy their families.

[JimPage]

I will not jump to any conclusions. Let's all wait for all the facts. I'm sure that someone has video of the confrontation. I for one will be patient.

[johnwilliamson062]

Whats the downside? Lets assume they get 200 persons with interesting viewpoints to show up. Now they have smoked out 200 potential terrorists who can be watched or dealt with out in the middle of nowhere if they start to get violent.

Well, they might be in Burns Oregon first. I'm also not certain the FBI would be prepared for 200 armed people to show up in different places along the perimiter they have set-up or for one of their checkpoints to be attacked by even one or two SUVs full of people, or for attacks at random field offices, or any of the other things that might happen, even if unlikely.
I said similar before, but, if .01% of the population gets incised by this, that would still be 30,000 people. Waco and Ruby Ridge didn't involve web pages, facebook, twitter, youtube, or even e-mail. This is much less predictable and much less controllable.

I think the 120 rounds fired was given by law enforcement, so I am not sure why you are doubting that. It isn't abnormal to see numbers like that when many police officers are involved. If there were 15 officers that isn't even a magazine each. They could have fired that many rounds in 3-5 seconds

[kilimanjaro]

I did not hear of the 120 rounds from LEO side, but from elsewhere, if it's official, I stand corrected on that. The 'hands up' claim, seems to come from a relative who was not in Oregon yesterday, so that must be entirely bogus, unless the other arrestees are permitted to keep their cell phones, which they are not.

I am certainly not buying into the 'traffic stop' tale. The FBI knew when they left the Refuge and where they were going, making a stop was escalating the standoff into a confrontation.

They negotiated for nearly 90 days with another standoff. They've done that here for less than a week.

I do, however, want to hear from officials involved just how much the Governor of Oregon and the Paiute Tribe were able to pressure the FBI or the OSP into an armed confrontation, if that did indeed occur. If so, apparently the interests of birdwatchers in Portland and the alleged fate of obscure artifacts are perhaps more important to some than human life. Reading some of the comments posted by readers on mainstream media sites about this certainly seems to indicate that to be the case.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

I was curious and waited to see if anyone would pickup on the one small tiny issue.

The Paiute is a federally recognized Indian tribe that inhabits southeastern Oregon, southern Idaho, Northern California and Nevada. The Burns Paiute Tribe’s ancestral territory includes the area now managed as the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, about 30 miles south of Burns.
So, it turns out that in 1868 a Treaty was written but Congress never ratified it
but the government guaranteed that it would protect the safety and property of the Northern Paiute people, according to the tribe.
So by this alone,it would appear that the Militia had even less right to occupy the Federal land that actually belonged to an American Indian Tribe.
The Tribal members 100% wanted these interlopers to remove themselves from their Tribal land.

Doc

[pnac]

I agree with Jim Page, I'm waiting on video and seeing what both sides have to say. If law enforcement has nothing to hide, video should be forthcoming.

[Colorado Redneck]

This is pure conjecture on my part:
It seems like LE waited until they could arrest the lead horses, and when they had their opportunity they moved. The guy that was killed had a choice--comply with law enforcement or endure the consequences. LE has a right to live and are under lots of scrutiny these days. It will be really surprising to me if this went down like the relatives reported. Sounds to me like the "hands up don't shoot" baloney when Michael Brown was shot as he attacked a cop.

It escapes me what these people thought they were going to accomplish. The public lands are not going to return to the states anytime soon, and certainly not because of an "occupation" by armed self proclaimed militia.

[rickyrick]

Apparently the driver of the other car is saying the individual that was killed crashed into a snow banks then charged the officers. Now, that would be appropriate use of force.
What I can't figure out is how the driver of one of these cars is out free to make youtube videos

[pnac]

Ricky, if that is the case though, how did 120 shots end up in the victims car?

[michaelcj]

Also widely reported That there were Probable Cause Arrest Warrants issued on all those arrested in the stop prior to the action being taken.

So it was not a pre textual or any other type of "simple" traffic stop.

It appears to be a well planned service of actual and legal arrest warrants. Planed for a time and place where there was the least risk of harm to the individuals sought, law enforcement involved, or innocent bystanders.

I'm not thrilled in any way that someone lost their life.

The fact that only one did makes extremely suspect any claims of premeditated harm, or 120 rounds flying around.

The sad truth is…. If you're gonna dance, you have to pay the piper.

[rickyrick]

Fox12 has also put up news helicopter footage of some pretty significant emplacements that the occupiers have built. Many are carrying rifles, seems they are wanting a fight. But they then showed one of the protesters with a Mini14 and called it an automatic weapon....

[ronl]

Rickyrick, you have a very valid point. Government plant? Very possible. This thing reeks of misinfo. The incident, initially, reminded me of the "sit-ins" of the 60's. Looking at it realistically, the people were in a building that was vacant and not posing a threat to anyone whatsoever. The thing that bothers me is that the occupiers had already spoken with authorities and were seeking a way out. They had also vowed not to shoot unless shot at. They could have sat back and let the thing work its way out, and all would have been well, at least to some degree, but now the authorities have escalated things. The people were on their way to a speaking engagement in another town. Let them pass and bide your time to work out a peaceful solution. Didn't happen. Now, a man is dead and there is no getting away from that. Didn't have to happen. Not much consolation to the family of the dead man. What the man did is irrelevant to me, for the incident did not have to happen. Reminds me in some respects of Ruby Ridge. A 15 year old boy shot and a mother killed through a kitchen window while holding a baby that posed no threat whatsoever to authorities. I just wish that we were simply told the truth about the matter, but I doubt that will ever happen. There will be spin from both sides. I do think there is much more to the thing than we are being led to believe, and the truth will eventually come out if someone cares enough to dig into reality, but I won't hold my breath. I always believed the entire occupation thing was as dumb as a box of rocks, but perhaps, just perhaps, there were some very valid reasons for the scenario. I will patiently sit back and withhold my judgement until more facts come to light, but the truth may never really be told.

[michaelcj]

I also have trouble understanding what "returned to the States" actually means.

I may be way off but I don't recall……...

The Nevada National Guard winning the Mexican War of 1848 or signing the treaty relinquishing sovereignty of what are now New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada and California to the UNITED STATES [read Federal]

Nor do I recall that the States of Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, S & N Dakota's, Wyoming, and Montana… negotiating with Napoleon and putting up the funds for the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.

Can't remember the States of Oregon and Washington and Idaho finalizing the details with Great Britain that brought those territories under the control and ownership of the USA.

Now Texas…. well…. it is Texas after all….. even they pleaded with congress for 3 years before they were admitted as a State.

Not to mention that there were other folks living there before any of us showed up on the continent .

[Doc Holliday 1950]

These "Public Lands" belong to the
Paiute Indian Tribe which the Federal
Government manages & protects for them
this particular land area in
perpetuity. Again, the Paiute Tribe
Went through BIA to the Feds &
Wanted these people removed
From their lands.
The Feds & Leos. didn't move
Until after the Paiutes complained
& this gave the Feds the right
to step in.

[Duster340]

Well, looks like these Bozos' arrogance finally caught up with them. Pretty foolish to think that they'd be able to continue to travel unimpeded indefinitely. They're criminals. As Michaelcj noted, Feds waited for the opportunity to apprehend the ring leaders on an isolated stretch of road with minimal risk to innocent citizens. Well planned and well played IMHO. Will be interesting to see how they handle the remaining pathetic losers that decided to stick around. Guessing the little weasels will give up when their snacks and vanilla coffee creamer runs out.

Be well all.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by michaelcj

I also have trouble understanding what "returned to the States" actually means.

I think you get the gist of it; it's a political weasel phrase meant to imply that the land was taken from the states somehow, when in fact only the original 13 colonies and Texas had a preexisting claim to state sovereignty.

Whether the feds should grant this land to the states is a policy dispute, NOT a matter of the states' so-called right to the land. The latter concept is a sham propagated by advocates of transferring the land.

Originally Posted by michaelcj

Now Texas…. well…. it is Texas after all….. even they pleaded with congress for 3 years before they were admitted as a State.

Texas is different because it was a republic with sovereignty over the land prior to becoming a state, and it retained this sovereignty upon statehood. Additionally, vast areas were already in private hands prior to the Revolution, with some owners having title dating to the time of Spanish rule. Real estate speculation was a Texas tradition well before Texas was a republic.

Furthermore, Texas in the mid 19th century was far from the financial, petrochemical, and agricultural powerhouse of today; it was basically a vast unpopulated backwater with very little infrastructure or tax base, so the state government had few options for raising revenue except selling land, and they had LOTS of that, so selling is what they did. Almost all of it was sold to private owners by the turn of the 20th century, except for relatively small areas that the state retained for specific purposes (e.g. schools), a few REALLY remote and arid areas that nobody wanted, or areas without clear title (mostly slivers left over as a result of surveying mistakes). AFAIK all federal land in TX was purchased by the Feds or taken via eminent domain subsequent to statehood.

[kilimanjaro]

Doc, Indian title to public lands has all been extinguished. The Paiute Tribe 'owns' a Reservation, carved out of the Public Domain, but that's all.

They do have treaty rights to hunt, fish, and worship in their 'usual and accustomed places, on public lands, and artifacts and archaeologic sites are protected by law, but that's it.

The Tribal demand for their removal was political posturing. It certainly won't make them any friends in Eastern Oregon, now that someone was killed.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

Sorry,
I deleted my response. Perhaps
If you look up how & why the
Feds manage certain lands for
Amerindians, you'll get a better
Understanding of why the Piautes
we're so ticked off at the Militia.
They demanded that the Feds
remove them. If it were not their
Lands, then the Piautes would have
never had any legal legs to stand
on.

[rickyrick]

We are all on tribal land. Not much that I can do about that. I'm sympathetic though.

[michaelcj]

carguychris,

You got me, I did have my tongue firmly planted in both cheeks…

Regarding Tejas….. Born in Ft. Worth lived up near Palo Duro until I was 15. So I do understand the uniqueness of its history.

Mike

[kilimanjaro]

Doc, the Paiutes don't own the land. Their demand was posturing. Their only legal interest in the matter is protection of artifacts and archaeological sites, most of which consist of lithic scatter and grinding stones.

[scrubcedar]

I've spent years in and around four different reservations. I've lost count of how many different enrolled tribes I have friends in. If this was truly Paiute land I guarantee that they were very unhappy with these people that they would have almost certainly seen as trespassers who had illegally seized land belonging to the tribe in the abstract and each of them personally, not the federal govt.
It would be as if these guys seized a part of your ranch protesting federal policy except that tribal people are understandably very touchy about other people taking the land that they have left.
Calling a govt. agency to kick these people off of your land would be an entirely appropriate action. By current law that has to do with how non tribal folks are handled on tribal land federal law enforcement might have no choice but to go in if asked by the rightful tribal government. By law these tribes and their land are sovereign nations folks. This creates some odd situations when it comes to law enforcement.

[turkeestalker]

I just wish that we were simply told the truth about the matter, but I doubt that will ever happen. There will be spin from both sides.

There are three sides to every story. The one side's, the other side's, and the truth that usually falls somewhere in between.
I'd like to know the truth as well.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

The Paiute is a federally recognized Indian tribe that inhabits southeastern Oregon, southern Idaho, Northern California and Nevada. The Burns Paiute Tribe’s ancestral territory includes the area now managed as the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, about 30 miles south of Burns.

The tribe’s ancestors signed a treaty with the federal government in 1868. The treaty was not ratified by Congress, but the government guaranteed that it would protect the safety and property of the Northern Paiute people, according to the tribe.

“The protesters have no claim to this land,” “It belongs to the native people who continue to live here. The Malheur Wildlife Refuge is an important place for us. We have no sympathy for those who are trying to take the land from its rightful owners.”

The tribe has about 420 members and 10,000 acres, Also the Amerindians tribes OWN 2-3% of the land in the US.
Generally on most Reservations the individual Tribes have their own LEO Force.
When need then they invite the local LEOs or usually the Feds onto their Reservation to assist them.

When there is a problem on most Reservations the Tribal LEOs take care of it. The only time that the Feds or local LEOs are allowed in is when they are invited.

Most people living in Florida are aware of this. The 2 major Tribes have similar
arrangements with the Law. One of these Tribes has never signed a Treaty with the US and technically still at War.
I suggest you look this info up. It is clearly spelled out what the Tribes own and what is held and cared for by the Fed. Government.

If you have any questions or different opinions, please go to
www.BIA.GOV and read up on this for yourselves.
Sorry to keep bringing this up but the the Bundy's messed up big time by not knowing what or where they would make their stand.

We White Eyes are an arrogant Bunch Aren't We??