That corporation/company loophole

SPUSCG · February 2, 2009, 04:34 PM

Ive heard corporations/companies can get NFA weapons in company name, like how some big banks have guards with mp5s. I saw on the news people are icorporating their land because of lawsuits, like a husband and wife being shareholders of their property and selling some firewood so they can prove a profit. i was wondering if i incorporate in the future if this will allow purchase of nfa firearms, or does you corporation need to be a certain size/industry?

freakintoguns · February 2, 2009, 05:00 PM

also, can your corporation convert weapons to select fire? or do they still need to be select fire weapons manufactured before 1986(i believe thats the cut off year)?

p99guy · February 2, 2009, 06:10 PM

The Revocable trust route is a better way to go if you have a simple situation,
and it Dont cause you to have to file business tax returns/ have a sales tax certificate etc./ pay yearly incorporation fees.

No none of this does away with the registry for new full autos being closed in may 1986 to
everyone except govt agencies....or class 7's making them for a govt agency

None of this is a a LOOPHOLE(a term anti gunners love to use) its just the rules.

aroundlsu · February 2, 2009, 06:17 PM

+1 It's not a loophole. Just the way it works.

But, really, corps can't do anything more than you can as an individual. If you want an MP5 and you have $20,000 you can get one. Simple as that. Of course, you need to live in a state that allows machine guns, too.

Skans · February 2, 2009, 06:56 PM

All it does is get rid of the CLEO sign-off requirement....which can be a big problem. Also, if you are moving to a different state and want to take your gun with you, you might have to transfer it into a trust, even if you own it individually, if you can't get a CLEO sign-off.

Ridge_Runner_5 · February 2, 2009, 11:44 PM

I'm going revokable trust because the local sheriff refuses to sign off on my NFA, even though my only infraction has been a speeding ticket from 2002:barf:

All it means is you dont need a CLEO signoff or fingerprints/photo...

SPUSCG · February 3, 2009, 11:05 AM

i saw bank couriers with AUGS. how do they get those? i know there not common at your friendly FFL.

aroundlsu · February 3, 2009, 12:12 PM

Skans, you don't need to get your local CLEO signature if you are moving to another state. Once you have your approved Form 4 you are good for life no matter where you move (assuming you are moving to a legal state). When moving interstate you just inform the ATF of your new address. That's it.

SPUSCG, you can get a pre-1986 transferrable Aug if you have the cash:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/product572.html

With that said, it's highly unlikely you saw a bank courier with a full auto Aug. More likely it was a semi-auto. You can get a semi-auto Aug at any neighborhood gun store. The bigger question is, why would a bank courier be running around with a machine gun? All the couriers I've ever seen don't look trained enough to even be packing the crappy pistol on their hip, much less a machine gun. Not to mention the liability of getting into a gun fight with a machine gun is much greater for the company than just giving the robbers whatever it is they want.

Hkmp5sd · February 3, 2009, 05:10 PM

About 10 years ago, the UN got caught when they equipped their guards with brand new MP5s. ATF told them No-No and made them remove all of their post-86 MGs from the US.

From what I have been told, corporations like Blackwater that use full auto guns in Iraq purchase and keep their machineguns outside the US.

Hkmp5sd · February 3, 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

When moving interstate you just inform the ATF of your new address. That's it.

If leaving the state, for machineguns (SBRs, SBSs, and DDs), you must have prior approval from ATF (even for visits). Don't make the mistake of moving only to find the area doesn't allow NFA items. ATF will not approve the new location.

James K · February 3, 2009, 09:00 PM

The CLEO signature is not a "permit" though some CLEOs use it that way. It only states that there is no law prohibiting you from buying the item. In a few cases, applicants have hired an attorney to explain that to the CLEO and sometimes have been successful. The threat of a messy lawsuit sometimes is also effective, though it might create a lot of rancor. The whole thing is really a cover for BATFE's collective a** in case a city or county council passed a law last night that BATFE doesn't know about.

But it has been used in family quarrels dating back decades, in political bias, in racial discrimination, and to solicit bribes from applicants. It should be abolished, but don't hold your breath unless a lawsuit gets to the right court.

New topic: Unless you are a Class 3 dealer/manufacturer, you have to have BATFE approval, in advance, to take any NFA item across a state line for any reason or any length of time.

Jim

ExoticArmsBrokerage · February 4, 2009, 12:29 AM

My big question is how companies like blackwater, dynacorp, triple canopy and all the other pmcs can own m249 saws and m240 golfs when they are all designed after 1986. Is it because they have clearance with the secretary of state or are they in possession of calss 3 importer licenses which would almost be necessary for them to take arms to iraq and bring them back. Technically they are in the business of importing and exporting arms and personel to use those weapons. Any thoughts out there.

aroundlsu · February 4, 2009, 01:31 PM

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but you all make it sound like taking NFA across state lines is harder than it really is. "Approval" amounts to filling out a short one page piece of paper, faxing it in, then waiting for it to come back 7 days later. I've done it several times now.

Singlesix1954 · February 6, 2009, 11:25 PM

Just file the proper papers, pay the fees and wait. If you don't have anything to hide then it is no problem. It has been the law since 1936 and it won't change for the better during the Obama admin.

One thing that could change is the price of the tax. If it does it won't be a tax cut for the middle class. It too has been the same price since 1936. If updated where do you think it will go?

rivercat · February 7, 2009, 03:39 AM

so if I go through the proper steps to form the trust and whatnot I can skip the CLEO signoff ?

I keep hearing everyone (LE officers, gun store owners) say that the sherrif in my county WILL NOT sign for ANY one not even the pope if he was a resident.

So with the trust I can bypass him?

BTW my moms a lawyer but honestly she has never ever given me good legal advise or good legal contracts

Hkmp5sd · February 7, 2009, 06:17 PM

Yes, you skip the CLEO signoff, fingerprints and photos.

February 2, 2009, 04:34 PM	#1
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	That corporation/company loophole Ive heard corporations/companies can get NFA weapons in company name, like how some big banks have guards with mp5s. I saw on the news people are icorporating their land because of lawsuits, like a husband and wife being shareholders of their property and selling some firewood so they can prove a profit. i was wondering if i incorporate in the future if this will allow purchase of nfa firearms, or does you corporation need to be a certain size/industry? __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 2, 2009, 06:10 PM	#3
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	The Revocable trust route is a better way to go if you have a simple situation, and it Dont cause you to have to file business tax returns/ have a sales tax certificate etc./ pay yearly incorporation fees. No none of this does away with the registry for new full autos being closed in may 1986 to everyone except govt agencies....or class 7's making them for a govt agency None of this is a a LOOPHOLE(a term anti gunners love to use) its just the rules. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

February 3, 2009, 11:05 AM	#7
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	i saw bank couriers with AUGS. how do they get those? i know there not common at your friendly FFL. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

February 3, 2009, 05:10 PM	#9
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	No new machineguns....just the already registered ones.... About 10 years ago, the UN got caught when they equipped their guards with brand new MP5s. ATF told them No-No and made them remove all of their post-86 MGs from the US. From what I have been told, corporations like Blackwater that use full auto guns in Iraq purchase and keep their machineguns outside the US.

February 4, 2009, 12:29 AM	#12
ExoticArmsBrokerage Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Posts: 2	private military companies My big question is how companies like blackwater, dynacorp, triple canopy and all the other pmcs can own m249 saws and m240 golfs when they are all designed after 1986. Is it because they have clearance with the secretary of state or are they in possession of calss 3 importer licenses which would almost be necessary for them to take arms to iraq and bring them back. Technically they are in the business of importing and exporting arms and personel to use those weapons. Any thoughts out there. Last edited by ExoticArmsBrokerage; February 4, 2009 at 12:41 AM.

February 2, 2009, 05:00 PM	#2
freakintoguns Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2008 Posts: 496	also, can your corporation convert weapons to select fire? or do they still need to be select fire weapons manufactured before 1986(i believe thats the cut off year)?

February 2, 2009, 06:17 PM	#4
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	+1 It's not a loophole. Just the way it works. But, really, corps can't do anything more than you can as an individual. If you want an MP5 and you have $20,000 you can get one. Simple as that. Of course, you need to live in a state that allows machine guns, too.

February 2, 2009, 06:56 PM	#5
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	All it does is get rid of the CLEO sign-off requirement....which can be a big problem. Also, if you are moving to a different state and want to take your gun with you, you might have to transfer it into a trust, even if you own it individually, if you can't get a CLEO sign-off.

February 2, 2009, 11:44 PM	#6
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	I'm going revokable trust because the local sheriff refuses to sign off on my NFA, even though my only infraction has been a speeding ticket from 2002:barf: All it means is you dont need a CLEO signoff or fingerprints/photo...

February 3, 2009, 12:12 PM	#8
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	Skans, you don't need to get your local CLEO signature if you are moving to another state. Once you have your approved Form 4 you are good for life no matter where you move (assuming you are moving to a legal state). When moving interstate you just inform the ATF of your new address. That's it. SPUSCG, you can get a pre-1986 transferrable Aug if you have the cash: http://www.impactguns.com/store/product572.html With that said, it's highly unlikely you saw a bank courier with a full auto Aug. More likely it was a semi-auto. You can get a semi-auto Aug at any neighborhood gun store. The bigger question is, why would a bank courier be running around with a machine gun? All the couriers I've ever seen don't look trained enough to even be packing the crappy pistol on their hip, much less a machine gun. Not to mention the liability of getting into a gun fight with a machine gun is much greater for the company than just giving the robbers whatever it is they want.

February 3, 2009, 09:00 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The CLEO signature is not a "permit" though some CLEOs use it that way. It only states that there is no law prohibiting you from buying the item. In a few cases, applicants have hired an attorney to explain that to the CLEO and sometimes have been successful. The threat of a messy lawsuit sometimes is also effective, though it might create a lot of rancor. The whole thing is really a cover for BATFE's collective a** in case a city or county council passed a law last night that BATFE doesn't know about. But it has been used in family quarrels dating back decades, in political bias, in racial discrimination, and to solicit bribes from applicants. It should be abolished, but don't hold your breath unless a lawsuit gets to the right court. New topic: Unless you are a Class 3 dealer/manufacturer, you have to have BATFE approval, in advance, to take any NFA item across a state line for any reason or any length of time. Jim

February 4, 2009, 01:31 PM	#13
aroundlsu Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 156	Not to keep beating a dead horse, but you all make it sound like taking NFA across state lines is harder than it really is. "Approval" amounts to filling out a short one page piece of paper, faxing it in, then waiting for it to come back 7 days later. I've done it several times now.

February 6, 2009, 11:25 PM	#14
Singlesix1954 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: Rural Ne Posts: 580	Just file the proper papers, pay the fees and wait. If you don't have anything to hide then it is no problem. It has been the law since 1936 and it won't change for the better during the Obama admin. One thing that could change is the price of the tax. If it does it won't be a tax cut for the middle class. It too has been the same price since 1936. If updated where do you think it will go?

February 7, 2009, 03:39 AM	#15
rivercat Junior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Posts: 8	so if I go through the proper steps to form the trust and whatnot I can skip the CLEO signoff ? I keep hearing everyone (LE officers, gun store owners) say that the sherrif in my county WILL NOT sign for ANY one not even the pope if he was a resident. So with the trust I can bypass him? BTW my moms a lawyer but honestly she has never ever given me good legal advise or good legal contracts Last edited by rivercat; February 7, 2009 at 03:45 AM.

February 7, 2009, 06:17 PM	#16
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Yes, you skip the CLEO signoff, fingerprints and photos. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

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