Better General Reloading Manual

SwampYankee · February 15, 2009, 01:36 PM

For a while I have been using the the Speer Reloading Manual and the Lee Manual (Modern Reloading). They often do not have duplicate data so between the two of them, I have managed to find most of the data I need. However, I recently discovered a pretty big discrepancy between the two. The .38 Spc. +P load for Unique is 0.7 grains higher for the Speer manual than the Lee manual. Obviously, I'm not going to start at max loads but it has gotten me to wondering which manual is more accurate. Either the Lee manual is under max and the Speer manual is at max of the Lee manual is at max and the Speer manual is over max. 0.7 grains is a 33% increase from the Lee max load.

Does anyone have an opinion as to which is a "better" manual?

**Unclenick** · February 15, 2009, 01:48 PM

Always start with the lowest starting load you can find in three reliable sources. Use the powder maker online manuals as the third source of data if you don't want to buy another.

Your question can't be answered because we don't know the bullet length and weight or the length of the loaded cartridge (COL). It the two loads were developed with bullets seated to different depths in the case, that can explain the difference. Likewise, you need to be using the same brands of brass and primer they did in developing their loads to exactly duplicate them. Changing any of the three (bullet, brass or primer) can and will change the peak pressure. So will any difference in seating depth of a bullet.

The Lee data is not developed by Lee, but is culled from other sources. It is often the lowest start and lowest maximum they could find in other references. It doesn't try to take any factor other than bullet weight into account, and that is not enough to duplicate a load. It just gives you a safe starting place, and you will need to learn how to work up from there to find a true maximum in your gun. It may exceed the Lee maximum but still be well within the maximum for another manual.

If I were you, I would look at the Unique data on Alliant's site, too. Pay particular attention to their COL numbers.

SwampYankee · February 15, 2009, 01:58 PM

Both manuals are referring to a 158 gr lead bullet. However, Speer uses the same max load of 5.2 grains Unique for 3 different COAL's of a 158 gr. weight. Lee does not say which primers were used. The Alliant web site is useless, there are only a few loads and none using 158 gr. lead bullets.

**Unclenick** · February 15, 2009, 02:46 PM

If the 158 grain lead bullets are the same length, the multiple seating depths will not produce the same peak pressures. Better hope they measured it (if they measured it at all) with the one seated deepest, as it doesn't take much change in depth to change pressure considerably. It is where the base seats down to that matters to pressure. So does the water capacity of the case. That's why I said we can't guess without knowing the length of your particular bullet?

The old Speer manuals had a reputation for rather hot loads. A few may have slid through into the more modern edition. I don't know? My advice still stands to begin with the smallest starting load you find. If no starting load is listed, knock the listed load down 10% or so, and work it up to the listed value while watching for pressure signs.

The Alliant site lists four loads for the 158 grains lead LSWC. They use the Speer 158 grain LSWC seated to 1.44" COL, and a CCI 500 primer. One of the four loads is 4.7 grains of Unique. Knock that load down to 4.1 grains (especially if you are using a different primer) and work it up in .2 grain steps, watching for pressure signs. That's only 4 loads to test.

rn22723 · February 15, 2009, 04:42 PM

Of course manuals are different! They use different platforms and differnt components. And, the ageo of manual may well impact the data. Powders have changed over the years, and so you may well have discrepencies.....

With rifle rounds you have to stick with the components that are used to develope the loading data. Maybe not so much with the 223, but we with larger cases it is a must. Case in point. Sierra used Federal 308 brass to work up their loads and Hodgdon used Win, hence he difference in loading data. And, if you were to use the Win data in the Fed cases you may well cause problems....you have to match the components to the right manual.

A person can never have too many reloading manuals!

fastshotivy · February 15, 2009, 04:50 PM

So your saying start with a the lowest load data and work your way up? What about you have a lot of mix match brass? Start will Lowest and work also? or something else?

Hammack · February 15, 2009, 05:25 PM

Honestly you will never duplicate a load unless you use all the same components, AND the same gun. Due to varying tolerances between guns you may start seeing pressure signs lighter or heavier than the listed max. That is why load data says to work up a load slowly. I will admit that I usually never start with the minimum load, but I do start in the mid range and go up from there.

SwampYankee · February 15, 2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

A person can never have too many reloading manuals!

Two seems like too many for me!

It is not that I am trying to necessarily duplicate a load. I am just trying to figure out where to start with a +p load.

Lee is telling me I can go from 4.3 to 4.5 grains.
Speer is telling me I can go from 4.7 to 5.2 grains.

This just seems like a huge discrepancy between the two. If I thought Lee was the way to go, I it would immediately make the Speer manual moot. If the two even overlapped a little, I would feel better.

Unfortunately, neither of these manuals indicate which components were used so that is not really any option.

Teuthis · February 15, 2009, 07:03 PM

When I was working up my original loads, many years ago, I used a number of manuals, did a lot of averaging in the mid-range loads, and eventually developed "factory representative" loads that I liked and used. I found that mid-range loads, all components being as listed in the manuals, gave me safe starting loads. A good rule for maximum loads is to never equal the max load shown. The closer one gets to max loads, the more circumspect one must be as to components. Never mix and match.

I do not use data that does not list minimum and maximum loads. The more data one examines and learns, the safer and more satisfying handloading will be.

James R. Burke · February 24, 2009, 12:26 PM

I try to have as many manulas that I can. You can't go wrong having to many, except for the wife with the cost. Seems like new stuff keeps coming up, and you always need to update. I try to stay current with the major makers, and always have one by whoever is making the bullet. It sure is nice being able to compare differnt manuals.

UniversalFrost · February 24, 2009, 01:50 PM

Lyman is about the best manual you can get.

Everyone should have the Lyman 47 or 48 as a standard to start with.

Of course you always want to have as much load data from different authors as possible and make sure to use the IMR/HODGEN/WInchester website as well.

JOE

jal5 · February 24, 2009, 02:35 PM

I have the Lee and Hornady manuals and have found that the Lee starts consistently lower and has a lower maximum for both the 38 spl and 357 mag that I have for pistols and the 243 and 270 WIN in rifles. Lee is lower on start and max loads listed compared to the websites for the projectile and powder too. Start with the lowest load as described by others here and work up slowly to see what works best in your gun, that seems to be the only way to do it. I have tried to throw out the lowest and the highest load as I compared manuals and websites and go from there.

**Unclenick** · February 24, 2009, 03:07 PM

SwampYankee,

I'm not sure where the issue is? Start with the lowest load you find and work up. I realize you are hoping someone will just hand you a +P recipe, but none exists that is universal to all combinations of powder, bullet, case and primer. The way the ammo manufacturers do it is to buy huge lots of those components and make trial loads. They fire these in a pressure test barrel and adjust the powder charge until they get the pressure they want. They then manufacture that recipe until one of the component lots is consumed. Every time they replace a lot of one of those components, they do the testing over again to adjust the load for the new component. Their recipe changes every time they run an ammo lot with different components lots. So will yours.

crowbeaner · February 24, 2009, 06:22 PM

Get the Hodgdon #26 and #27 manuals; they have realistic maximums and Hodgdon now handles many different brands of powder.

FrankenMauser · February 25, 2009, 01:50 AM

I can't address your listed load, but would like to cover manuals in general.

Although on the conservative side, I usually reach for my Hornady manual before anything else. Sometimes I'll even be loading a bullet I know is listed in one of my other manuals, but was to see what the Hornady data is first.

Multiple data sources can do wonders for seeing how different bullets, of the same weight, can have dramatically different powder charges and pressure ratings.

As others have said; the Lee manual is reprinted data. They don't do in-house testing of those loads.

Manuals that come to mind, from companies that still do their own testing (or pay other labs to do it) :
Hornady
Speer
Sierra
Nosler *
Barnes *
Hodgdon
RCBS *

The list is far from complete, but shows that there are many sources out there. I would highly advise getting the Hodgdon manual as a start, since it's about $6 and updated every year. The Lyman manual comes highly reccommended by many reloaders, but I haven't had a chance to look at one in over 10 years. As such; I can't list it, or comment on it.

(* Nosler and Barnes manuals have limited uses -their bullets only- unless you have quite a bit of reloading experience, and can understand the differences between their load and others. The RCBS manuals haven't been printed in many years, and could be considered limited; due to being "behind the times" with powder developement. However, I have found the older RCBS manuals to be very useful.)

TEDDY · February 25, 2009, 02:24 PM

no one can give you +P data as it all depends on your gun whether it will handel it or not.lower than top loads generaly give the best accuacy.+p loads
really do not have any advantage.and they may damage you or the gun.when you go to that point there is very little leeway,and a small change can make a BIG difference."unclenick" is right in this.

February 15, 2009, 01:36 PM	#1
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	Better General Reloading Manual For a while I have been using the the Speer Reloading Manual and the Lee Manual (Modern Reloading). They often do not have duplicate data so between the two of them, I have managed to find most of the data I need. However, I recently discovered a pretty big discrepancy between the two. The .38 Spc. +P load for Unique is 0.7 grains higher for the Speer manual than the Lee manual. Obviously, I'm not going to start at max loads but it has gotten me to wondering which manual is more accurate. Either the Lee manual is under max and the Speer manual is at max of the Lee manual is at max and the Speer manual is over max. 0.7 grains is a 33% increase from the Lee max load. Does anyone have an opinion as to which is a "better" manual?

February 15, 2009, 02:46 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If the 158 grain lead bullets are the same length, the multiple seating depths will not produce the same peak pressures. Better hope they measured it (if they measured it at all) with the one seated deepest, as it doesn't take much change in depth to change pressure considerably. It is where the base seats down to that matters to pressure. So does the water capacity of the case. That's why I said we can't guess without knowing the length of your particular bullet? The old Speer manuals had a reputation for rather hot loads. A few may have slid through into the more modern edition. I don't know? My advice still stands to begin with the smallest starting load you find. If no starting load is listed, knock the listed load down 10% or so, and work it up to the listed value while watching for pressure signs. The Alliant site lists four loads for the 158 grains lead LSWC. They use the Speer 158 grain LSWC seated to 1.44" COL, and a CCI 500 primer. One of the four loads is 4.7 grains of Unique. Knock that load down to 4.1 grains (especially if you are using a different primer) and work it up in .2 grain steps, watching for pressure signs. That's only 4 loads to test. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 15, 2009, 07:03 PM	#9
Teuthis Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 537	When I was working up my original loads, many years ago, I used a number of manuals, did a lot of averaging in the mid-range loads, and eventually developed "factory representative" loads that I liked and used. I found that mid-range loads, all components being as listed in the manuals, gave me safe starting loads. A good rule for maximum loads is to never equal the max load shown. The closer one gets to max loads, the more circumspect one must be as to components. Never mix and match. I do not use data that does not list minimum and maximum loads. The more data one examines and learns, the safer and more satisfying handloading will be. __________________ Oderint dum Metuant

February 24, 2009, 01:50 PM	#11
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	Lyman is about the best manual you can get. Everyone should have the Lyman 47 or 48 as a standard to start with. Of course you always want to have as much load data from different authors as possible and make sure to use the IMR/HODGEN/WInchester website as well. JOE __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

February 24, 2009, 02:35 PM	#12
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	I have the Lee and Hornady manuals and have found that the Lee starts consistently lower and has a lower maximum for both the 38 spl and 357 mag that I have for pistols and the 243 and 270 WIN in rifles. Lee is lower on start and max loads listed compared to the websites for the projectile and powder too. Start with the lowest load as described by others here and work up slowly to see what works best in your gun, that seems to be the only way to do it. I have tried to throw out the lowest and the highest load as I compared manuals and websites and go from there. __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!

February 15, 2009, 01:48 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Always start with the lowest starting load you can find in three reliable sources. Use the powder maker online manuals as the third source of data if you don't want to buy another. Your question can't be answered because we don't know the bullet length and weight or the length of the loaded cartridge (COL). It the two loads were developed with bullets seated to different depths in the case, that can explain the difference. Likewise, you need to be using the same brands of brass and primer they did in developing their loads to exactly duplicate them. Changing any of the three (bullet, brass or primer) can and will change the peak pressure. So will any difference in seating depth of a bullet. The Lee data is not developed by Lee, but is culled from other sources. It is often the lowest start and lowest maximum they could find in other references. It doesn't try to take any factor other than bullet weight into account, and that is not enough to duplicate a load. It just gives you a safe starting place, and you will need to learn how to work up from there to find a true maximum in your gun. It may exceed the Lee maximum but still be well within the maximum for another manual. If I were you, I would look at the Unique data on Alliant's site, too. Pay particular attention to their COL numbers. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 15, 2009, 01:58 PM	#3
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	Both manuals are referring to a 158 gr lead bullet. However, Speer uses the same max load of 5.2 grains Unique for 3 different COAL's of a 158 gr. weight. Lee does not say which primers were used. The Alliant web site is useless, there are only a few loads and none using 158 gr. lead bullets.

February 15, 2009, 04:42 PM	#5
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	Of course manuals are different! They use different platforms and differnt components. And, the ageo of manual may well impact the data. Powders have changed over the years, and so you may well have discrepencies..... With rifle rounds you have to stick with the components that are used to develope the loading data. Maybe not so much with the 223, but we with larger cases it is a must. Case in point. Sierra used Federal 308 brass to work up their loads and Hodgdon used Win, hence he difference in loading data. And, if you were to use the Win data in the Fed cases you may well cause problems....you have to match the components to the right manual. A person can never have too many reloading manuals!

February 15, 2009, 04:50 PM	#6
fastshotivy Member Join Date: November 18, 2008 Posts: 66	So your saying start with a the lowest load data and work your way up? What about you have a lot of mix match brass? Start will Lowest and work also? or something else?

February 15, 2009, 05:25 PM	#7
Hammack Member Join Date: January 29, 2009 Posts: 17	Honestly you will never duplicate a load unless you use all the same components, AND the same gun. Due to varying tolerances between guns you may start seeing pressure signs lighter or heavier than the listed max. That is why load data says to work up a load slowly. I will admit that I usually never start with the minimum load, but I do start in the mid range and go up from there.

February 24, 2009, 12:26 PM	#10
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I try to have as many manulas that I can. You can't go wrong having to many, except for the wife with the cost. Seems like new stuff keeps coming up, and you always need to update. I try to stay current with the major makers, and always have one by whoever is making the bullet. It sure is nice being able to compare differnt manuals.

February 24, 2009, 03:07 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	SwampYankee, I'm not sure where the issue is? Start with the lowest load you find and work up. I realize you are hoping someone will just hand you a +P recipe, but none exists that is universal to all combinations of powder, bullet, case and primer. The way the ammo manufacturers do it is to buy huge lots of those components and make trial loads. They fire these in a pressure test barrel and adjust the powder charge until they get the pressure they want. They then manufacture that recipe until one of the component lots is consumed. Every time they replace a lot of one of those components, they do the testing over again to adjust the load for the new component. Their recipe changes every time they run an ammo lot with different components lots. So will yours. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 24, 2009, 06:22 PM	#14
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Get the Hodgdon #26 and #27 manuals; they have realistic maximums and Hodgdon now handles many different brands of powder. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

February 25, 2009, 01:50 AM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I can't address your listed load, but would like to cover manuals in general. Although on the conservative side, I usually reach for my Hornady manual before anything else. Sometimes I'll even be loading a bullet I know is listed in one of my other manuals, but was to see what the Hornady data is first. Multiple data sources can do wonders for seeing how different bullets, of the same weight, can have dramatically different powder charges and pressure ratings. As others have said; the Lee manual is reprinted data. They don't do in-house testing of those loads. Manuals that come to mind, from companies that still do their own testing (or pay other labs to do it) : Hornady Speer Sierra Nosler * Barnes * Hodgdon RCBS * The list is far from complete, but shows that there are many sources out there. I would highly advise getting the Hodgdon manual as a start, since it's about $6 and updated every year. The Lyman manual comes highly reccommended by many reloaders, but I haven't had a chance to look at one in over 10 years. As such; I can't list it, or comment on it. (* Nosler and Barnes manuals have limited uses -their bullets only- unless you have quite a bit of reloading experience, and can understand the differences between their load and others. The RCBS manuals haven't been printed in many years, and could be considered limited; due to being "behind the times" with powder developement. However, I have found the older RCBS manuals to be very useful.)

February 25, 2009, 02:24 PM	#16
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	+P data no one can give you +P data as it all depends on your gun whether it will handel it or not.lower than top loads generaly give the best accuacy.+p loads really do not have any advantage.and they may damage you or the gun.when you go to that point there is very little leeway,and a small change can make a BIG difference."unclenick" is right in this.