50 grain 9mm 2,000 FPS

[Nittespanker]

Anyone ever used any of this Liberty ultra defense Usm4 ammo?

Says 2000fps 450 fpe ultra fragmentation
12" depth and 5" width @ 25 meters

Just curious is anyone has shot this ammo and how it shoots!

[tipoc]

I've never heard of them or this round. But when I read what they say about their ammo I become a bit suspicious...

Liberty Ammunition’s USM4 UltraDefense

Liberty USM4 Ultra Defense CD950 9MM+P, Hollow Point

Liberty Ammunition’s USM4 UltraDefense handgun projectile is a monolithic, hollow- point, lead-free handgun projectile that significantly outperforms traditional lead-based handgun ammunition across every metric. Liberty Ammunition’s handgun rounds have historically only been available to the Military because of their lethality, and have up until recently have been guarded by the Department of Defense under a Level III secret review. Now, after customization specifically for US Law Enforcement and Civilian Handgun Markets, the breakthrough performance projectiles are for the first time being made available to a broader target audience.

I'm skeptical because of the text of the ad:

I don't know what a monolithic hollowpoint is, I've never heard of it.
While the bullets do not have a lead core they do not say what they are made of.
The claim that they outperform traditional ammo in all ways ("all metrics") is a big claim.
The manufacturer claims that they are so revolutionary, apparently, that the DOD has kept them secret until now. Now is a good time though to declassify them and tailor them for the civilian market.

Further they say:

In recent independently validated live fire exercises conducted for members of the US Military and various foreign defense contractor leadership, Liberty’s USM4 demonstrated heretofore never witnessed performance. USM4’s 9MM, 45ACP, and 40 S&W projectiles achieved more than 2,000 fps velocity, making them the fastest known handgun projectile in the world. USM4’s velocity and unique design characteristics enables the projectile to overcome historical range, accuracy, and stopping power issues typically associated with handgun ammunition. In the performance demonstrations, USM4 achieved less than two inches of dispersion at 25 meters and greater than 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin.

For more info visit USM4.com

It could be that they have developed light weight bullets that do not break up on impact that move more than 2,000 fps from a 5" barrel in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45acp. Aluminum bullets have been around for a bit but usually lack accuracy and break up. The ad claims to have solved those problems. OK.

Usually we read about such breakthroughs in reputable magazines and websites. When I first see them in advertisements I'm skeptical of the claims.

Buy some and try it out!

tipoc

[Nittespanker]

Oh no doubt I just bought two boxs. I'll shoot one box and if they perform ill keep the other box. If I don't like them I'll sell the other box to an ammo hoarder.

[Theohazard]

Somebody asked about that same ammo just last week, so I'll cut-and-paste my same answer:

I'm not specifically familiar with Liberty Ultra Defense, but it looks like they're another one of those super-fast, super-lightweight, frangible-bullet designs.

There's a couple of problems with those. First, the bullet is often made from a pressed-together materiel so it will fragment in soft tissue or through walls. But this materiel is also usually much more susceptible to moisture: I had a friend who carried some RCBD ammo for about a year and when he went to shoot it his gun blew up after four rounds. It turned out that moisture had infiltrated the case and caused the kaboom.

The other problem is that the bullet often performs unreliably through heavy clothing and is much more easily deflected by bone and such. I'm sure there are times when a super-fast, super-lightweight, frangible 9mm bullet outperforms a more traditional hollow point, but this performance tends to be less reliable.

There's a reason why almost all federal and state law enforcement agencies use traditional hollow points.

[tipoc]

I poked around some and I found this review of the ammo on another forum:

http://www.gunnook.com/content.php?3...SM4-Range-Test

The tester bought a box and fired it from his Taurus 740 slim at some water jugs. His chrono had the speed at 2023fps. The first jug exploded and the round penetrated 3 jugs and broke apart.

He tried some of the 9mm from another gun and it broke apart on the way to the target.

But read the test and see for yourself. Buy a box and test and read.

I don't yet see where the ammo was made.

The ads remind me of the ads for Extreme Shok!!! ammo.

tipoc

[Nittespanker]

He tried some of the 9mm from another gun and it broke apart on the way to the target.

I see where he was testing the .40 that came apart on the way to the target but never see anything about 9mm.
I guess that doesn't matter however if the .40 would come apart I suppose the 9mm could/would.
It coming apart may or may not be a bad thing.

None the less I appreciate your input. I picked these up at 20 bucks a box,the guy gave me a deal as I was buying a few other things and I was from out of town and drove a couple hours to visit his store and have dinner close by at a seafood restaurant that's super killer good! Man I love fresh fish and crab!!!!

[JN01]

and have up until recently have been guarded by the Department of Defense under a Level III secret review

Meh. I'm waiting until the Level FOUR secret review ammo becomes available.

[Nittespanker]

That's what I was thinking about my next Glock maybe I'll wait until generation 5 or 6 maybe they really will be perfect by then. Glock perfection we can only hope

[Brian Pfleuger]

When an ad sounds like it was written by Gecko45, it's (lack of) validity should be self-evident.

[Nittespanker]

When an ad sounds like it was written by Gecko45, it's (lack of) validity should be self-evident.

I can't find any claims the manufacturer made that Tiptoc posted.
Maybe Tiptoc could post a link to where he found that description.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

These are nothing new.fragmentation rounds have been around at least since the 70's. They were not very popular after the early 80's and have recently been making their way back.

They are made to break apart and send tiny shrapnel into the target. Unfortunately they are less effective than they would have you believe.

As far as speed, think about the bullet weight. They are almost half the weight of a .380 with the full load of a 9mm.

That's not a heavy round. A normal round from a 9mm is the 124 grn and most range from 115 grn to 147.

124 being pretty average for a 9mm is more than twice the grn of a 50grn bullt. about 146% more give or take 1 or 2.

A .22 is about 35 grn and travels @ about 1700fps. Just add 15grn of weight and more than double powder and you have 2000fps.

Stick with the Hollow Point

[JD0x0]

seems a bit gimmicky. the 50 grain in that diameter will have terrible sectional density (bad penetration) and bad ballistic coefficient. Coupled with the fact that the round is meant to fragment, it will not penetrate well.

Also remember "ballistics gel" isn't a human body. 12'' of penetration, in ballistics gel could equal zero penetration in a human body, if a light, weakly constructed bullet hits the ribs or another bone and doesn't make it through.

A 50 grain .22wmr @ 1700fps could potentially be more effective than a 50 grain 9mm @ 2000fps. The 9mm will have more muzzle energy because of the faster initial velocity but the bullet still has a worse SD than a 50 gr. 22 and a worse BC so it will not penetrate as well and it will lose velocity faster.

[RBid]

The only testimonial I've heard was a gushing reference that Joe Teti made in an interview. The interview was in a couple of YouTube videos by Captain Berz, called "Joe Teti Talks Tactical". Joe was a Force Recon Marine, then left to join Army SF, and eventually some secretive counter terrorism unit. He has 20+ years of special operations experience. Quite a resume. At some point in the video, Joe mentions the Liberty rounds, and pretty much raves about their real world performance.

Take it for what it is... Anecdotal.

[Venom1956]

At some point in the video, Joe mentions the Liberty rounds, and pretty much raves about their real world performance.

when your getting paid by the company usually their products are the best.

[Nittespanker]

when your getting paid by the company usually their products are the best.

That's a fact and when some guys have never heard of a product or have it himself then it must be crap.
Looks like the website says the are made of nickel plated copper.

[5.56RifleGuy]

Only available to the military eh? I thought they didn't use HP ammo. I guess only available doesn't mean they actually bought any.

[RBid]

Originally Posted by Venom1956

when your getting paid by the company usually their products are the best.

I am aware of this tendency, but I was unaware that Teti was on the Liberty payroll. Are you speculating that he is, or are you suggesting that you know he is?

Sometimes, people say good things because that's really how they feel.

[Nittespanker]

Here is a YouTube video of the round penetrating drywall and then in a seperate test it penetrates 4 layers of denim breaks a pork rib and creates a massive wound channel. Watch how the whole pork set-up and 2x4's move when it's hit by the bullet.

http://youtu.be/B9G0Je8z9J0

[Glock20/460long]

Sorry if I missed it, but did anybody mention "Mag Safe" 60g 9mm at 1800 FPS.

My famous last statement is "Go BIG, or go home"

[tipoc]

I can't find any claims the manufacturer made that Tiptoc posted.
Maybe Tiptoc could post a link to where he found that description.

OK here...

http://www.tactical-life.com/product...-defense-ammo/

here...

http://www.guns4sale.net/usm4/catalo...oduct_id=94730

and here...

http://libertyammunition.com/products/

There is more. There are also more tests of the ammo on line.

On the ammo that came apart on the way to the target, that is it blew apart after it left the barrel and before hitting the paper target, the reviewer I posted before said:

I decided to test out this ammo in my Beretta PX4. Shot two rounds just fine. Third round came apart on the way to the target peppering it with shrapnel. I don't know what caused this to happen, but I do know I will not be using this ammo anymore.

I assumed it was the 9mm It may have been .40S&W. He does not exactly say what caliber his gun is. I think it was the bullet breaking apart thing that was important.

The homepage for this ammo states:

Liberty Ammunition USM4 Ultra Defense and Civil-Defense ammunition use our patented high performance, lead–free technologies. This revolutionary self defense ammunition delivers extended range, beyond the “normal” 10—15 meters. These rounds provide three times the terminal effects with a dramatic reduction in felt recoil allowing for quicker follow up shots on target.

So this ammo is so revolutionary that it goes beyond the "normal" 10 yards 2.8ft. to 16yards 1.8 ft. that usual self defense ammo can. That's news! On more than one front. So the ammo will shoot a bit less than 17 yards but with three times the terminal effect of standard self defense ammo. Neat trick!

If you read nothing else but the text of the ads you may wanna pass on this stuff.

tipoc

[tipoc]

Here is a ballistic gel penetration test of the 9mm ammo which was sponsered by Liberty Ammo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip5jlpI3NY

Note that the ammo penetrates the gel 1" then the bullet rapidly and explosively expands, splitting into pieces for an additional 3" of penetration, then the base of the round continues forward for a total penetration of 9".

The ammo is a light weight hollow round with a thin base. Think of a light weight ball ammo with a hole drilled through it mounted on a thin base and that is about what this seems to be.

Penetration is shallow with a wide pattern of explosive expansion. The bullet literally breaks to pieces 1 inch into the gel.

tipoc

[LockedBreech]

MagSafe, Liberty, Extreme Shock, and similar ammunition choices make me feel very angry, because it couldn't be clearer that they're trying to sucker in the crowd that will be dazzled with mega-tactical terms and unrealistically grandiose claims.

In actual tests, these mega-futuristic, super-duper rounds always end up being made of mundane materials, unable to consistently perform in properly conducted tests.

Speer Gold Dot has a small advertising budget, very plain-looking boxes. Why are they so successful? They create a product that works. No extra hype needed.

I love and support the free market, but like anything/anyone I love it gets my goat on occasion.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Also note in the video posted by Tipoc that they're only getting 1,800 fps.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Why did we start with frangible and move to Hallow Point?

Though it is possibly an accident, it still is confusing.

Which round is the op truly referring to? The frangible or the HP?

I know the OP named the Frangible to begin with.

Did I miss something?

[Nittespanker]

The first two links Tiptoc posted are not from the manufacturer. The last link posted doesn't make any wild claim. The typical defense round doesn't reliably expand at the distances liberty states.
The 1800 fps they are getting may be a result of a short barrel.

The bullet breaking up after 1" penetration and leaving the tail end of the bullet intact may be a good thing.

One bullet according to some guy on the Internet broke up on the way to the target. I like how you put all your faith in the negative with that one.
If I threw away every brand of ammo I've had ONE failure with I probably wouldn't have any ammo left to shoot period.
Nothing is 100% reliable and I don't think anyone would volunteer to take a liberty round.

If hit in the ribs with that round one might get one piece coming out your toe and another out your shoulder. How large a piece hitting the spinal cord would stop a threat?

While I can see why a person would not want or like the liberty round I do not understand all the hate and the over all attitude that the ammunition would be ineffective and hands down garbage.