410 for HD

Max007 · March 6, 2011, 04:51 PM

I was in a local gun shop recently for an unrelated reason, and was shown a Moossberg 500 in 410.
I was told that it was a good HD gun with light recoil. I've never owned a shotgun, and was wondering if this was true.

Noreaster · March 6, 2011, 04:54 PM

Not bad with buckshot or slugs. Ever since the Taurus Judge came out there has been 410 SD shells being sold. Last year a buddy's kid shot and killed a doe with a 410 slug.

rottieman33 · March 6, 2011, 05:36 PM

I look at it this way its a gun you point it at anybody thats breaks in to your house there going to run or be in a lot of pain after you shoot them.

kaylorinhi · March 6, 2011, 05:59 PM

Heck, bird shot close-enough would work!

sirsloop · March 6, 2011, 07:09 PM

Sure it'll work, but for my money I'll be shooting 12 gauge with 3" 00 Buck. I'm not on board with the low recoil crowd. With this stuff it'll only take one well aimed shot to put em down.

kozak6 · March 6, 2011, 07:41 PM

Good? I don't know if I would use that word.

Adequate? Perhaps. .410 slugs are comparable to a spicy pistol cartridge. 5 00 pellets aren't too bad.

The thing is, though, is that if you are going to go with a shotgun for defense, the only reason to go with a .410 would be for light weight or low recoil.

At similar velocities, what do you think is going to be more effective?
A 1/5 oz slug, or a 1 oz slug?

5 00 pellets? Or 9 pellets? Or how about 12 pellets?

pelo801 · March 6, 2011, 09:16 PM

I think the 410 get the short end by people comparing it to the 12 ga. Well we all know it's no 12 ga. The winchester 410 3 inch slugs are about 110 gr. going about 1800 ft/sec. Well according to the box. Even at 1600 ft/sec., that's a really spicy pistol round.
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm
I found this link, that has come charts and graph comparisions. You can decide for yourself. I realize the 410 has some limitations, but mostly for hunting. We're talking about HD though. Maybe you don't like shooting a 12 ga. or don't like the recoil. I don't hear anybody saying a 38 spl isn't enough for HD. So a 3 inch shell of 00 buck, 5 pellets, is just shy of 5 38 spl at once at a lot higher velocity. I think that's plenty. I found this too, i'ts more about hunting. I still think it's interesting, especially the part about comparing the 410 to 10mm, 357, and 44-40.
http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwslug.html
I'm not trying to start a debate here. I just think the 410 is a good HD weapon. And probably could kill a dear out to 60 yds. Maybe farther.

Dave McC · March 6, 2011, 09:56 PM

It beats bare hands, or even a baseball bat. But, try out some shotguns before committing your cash to one.

Marrok · March 6, 2011, 10:03 PM

I own a single shot NEF 410. I know from my experience using the gun that it would be perfect for home defense.

Buck or bird doesnt really matter, most intruders see a gun and run, those that are stupid enough to stay will definitely regret it either way. 12 gauge shotguns take alot of credit and deserve it. But comparing the two is like comparing a ferrari and a ford fiesta. they both will do what you need, even if one is more powerful than the other.

this has been mentioned on other forums I frequent and its the same all over.

A 410 will do the job, dont let anyone tell you different. Ive had family take monster deer with a 410 when people said it was impossible. Its your decision on what you pick.

rottieman33 · March 6, 2011, 10:06 PM

Get a Saiga 12,20, or 410 and get a 10 round mag

Fiv3 · March 7, 2011, 10:57 AM

I keep a .410 as a truck gun. It's mainly for "just in case". I have various different shells stocked for defense, varmint, and food.

Would I want to rely on a .410 single, double, or pump for home/camp defense? Not if I had a choice. However, it's a Saiga with a 15 round mag. What it lacks in raw power, it makes up for shots on target and speed of follow up shots.

Nice little camp/truck gun that can be pressed into defense if need be.

sirsloop · March 7, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

5 00 pellets? Or 9 pellets? Or how about 12 pellets?

Or 15?

hogcowboy · March 7, 2011, 11:39 AM

My wife's go to is a .410. She's very comfortable with that size gun. So I'd say if you're looking for a light recoil gun, that's it.

zippy13 · March 7, 2011, 11:55 AM

To those of us who are primarily shotgunners, a .410-bore is a mouse load typically relegated to .410-bore clay target events, firearms familiarization for youngsters, and nuisance targets. Like many folks, my good guns are locked away; but, there's the ancestral single-shot 3" .410 in the coat closet and a box of shells in the mantle clock. It's not my HD go-to gun.

On the other hand, to a pistol shooter, a .410-bore shot shell makes a revolver a hand cannon. It's the proliferation of the .410-bore revolvers and "HD" loads specially tailored to them that has folks thinking about the .410-bore as an appropriate HD load.

Is the .410-bore shot shell appropriate for HD, it all depends on your perspective. But, as Dave McC reminded us, "It beats bare hands…"

oletymer · March 9, 2011, 11:26 AM

The 3 inch Winchester 410 buckshot load contains 5 000 pellets not 00. Any one getting hit at HD range with that load is going to be severely injured or dead.

markj · March 9, 2011, 05:43 PM

If a man pointed one at me I would ask him not to shoot me with that, it can kill a person. A bb gun can kill a person so why argue over how effective it is? Use what you feel comfy with and be prepared.

Most folks will never ever need any type of defense at all. But, best have a plan in case it does.

Buzzard Bait · March 12, 2011, 03:21 PM

I think the 410 buck shot load is an interesting load that may need more work. I saw a web sight that had tested the rounds in some different targets. It looked like the top pellet came out in good shape but the bottom balls looked like they were flat as a washer by the time the got out of the barrel. seems like if the load had some sort of plastic discarding sleeve to protect and support the balls or filler it would perform better. Most 410 shot guns are easy to shoot and easy to get good hits with. No denying that 4 or 5 double or triple 0 pellets at that kind of velocity with the ability for more follow up rounds in a hurry is a HD round to be considered.
bb

SHR970 · March 12, 2011, 05:04 PM

The best thing that happened to the 410 is the Taurus Judge. Not because the gun is great or anything like that but because its popularity has made the big manufacturers to rethink their 410 offerings and use better components.

I have long been tired of the '410 is worthless use a 12 gauge with reduced recoil loads' statements floated. This thinking is ususally associated with those that think the 12 gauge is the beginning and end of the conversation.

Let's look at some of the offerings betwen the two.

00 Buck Nominal weight 53 gr. Diameter .33"
000 Buck Nominal weight 70 gr. Diameter .36"

12 Gauge reduced recoil 00 Buck: SAAMI barrel length 30"
9 pellet velocity 1125 fps (source Winchester)
8 pellet velocity 1200 fps (source Remington)

410 bore: SAAMI barrel length 26"
2 1/2"
3 pellet 000 Buck velocity 1300 fps (source Winchester)
4 pellet 000 Buck velocity 1200 fps (source Federal)

3"
5 Pellet 000 Buck velocity 1135 fps (source Winchester)
5 pellet 00 Buck velocity 1230 fps (source Sellier & Bellot)

Both loads can lose between 50 -100 fps when fired from an 18.5 in barrel. However, the 410 gives up nothing in velocity when compared to a 12 gauge firing a reduce recoil load of any flavor. Since you are usually firing 000 Buck in the 410, your per pellet energy is going to be 25-30% greater. A shotguns main effectiveness comes from multiple hits shocking the body into shutting down much like a burst from a SMG. Since we are talking houshold distances you can reasonably expect to put all pellets on target. Whether its a three pellet load, a four pellet load, or a five pellet load; hit a goblin in the boiler room with a 410 buck load and you will ruin his day. Is a 410 the best choice? Not really but neither is an 18 pellet load from a 12 or 10 gauge 3 1/2" shell.

Go to Brassfetcher, then the "Old Website" link and look at the results of the Winchester 3" load from an 18" barrel.

Superhouse 15 · March 12, 2011, 08:28 PM

My ex was recoil sensitive and I bought her the HD .410 Mossberg. I'm glad I got it in the Divorce. I kept S&B "Spherical Bullet" buckshot in it until I got my hands on the Winchester PDX loads (in the gun now) and Federal's Judge load (in Tuff Strips). It's still in my safe, near the front, just in case.

Big Bill · March 13, 2011, 01:50 AM

I wouldn't own a 410. You might as well just spit on the perp.

shortwave · March 13, 2011, 08:56 AM

If I didn't have anything else for HD but a 410, you bet a 410 is what I'd be using.

If I were shopping for a HD(only) shotgun, I'd be looking at either a 20 or 12ga.

Quote:

You might as well just spit on the perp.

Big Bill,
You may want to research the statistics on how many people have been killed by the .410 either in defense situations or hunting accidents.

Granted, the 410 wouldn't be my first choice for HD but I think you have grossly under-estimated the lethal effectiveness of a properly placed 410 load of 00buck, shot out of an 18"(or longer) full choke bbl at HD/SD distance.

ThomasT · March 13, 2011, 03:31 PM

I have a friend who went to school with a kid that killed his stepdad with a 410. The step dad kept beating on his mom and one day the kid just went off.

When he shot the stepdad he said he fell flat on his back. The shot blew his heart out of his chest and he stated the heart beat for a bit then stopped. My friend said this kid was a little different after that. I guess he should have tried spitting on his stepdad first. I am sure he would have been just as incapacitated.

I wouldn't have any problem using a 410 for home defense. I just loaded three .390 balls in a 410 hull and shot a 2x4 about 15 feet away. It blew through the board and badly splintered the back side of the wood. I wish I had of had a couple more boards behind the first to see what the total penetration was. If you think that is a weak load grab a 2x4 and see if with all your strength you can stab a screw driver through it. You can't. Not even half way.

**Shane Tuttle** · March 13, 2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rottieman33

I look at it this way its a gun you point it at anybody thats breaks in to your house there going to run or be in a lot of pain after you shoot them.

This isn't necessarily the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortwave

Granted, the 410 wouldn't be my first choice for HD but I think you have grossly under-estimated the lethal effectiveness of a properly placed 410 load of 00buck, shot out of an 18"(or longer) full choke bbl at HD/SD distance.

I wonder how much effectiveness is lost with the barrel length the Judge offers?

MLeake · March 13, 2011, 04:21 PM

Sure.

Would it offer any advantage over a 20ga for HD? Not that I can see, unless an intended user is severely recoil sensitive.

Like some others here, I'd personally go with a 12ga or a 20ga. (In fact, the HD long-gun at my place is a Remington 870 with a 21" smoothbore slug barrel.) I have no trouble with 12ga recoil, and my lady can handle it quite well; however, she would prefer a 20ga, if she were going to get into sporting use.

While there are some good .410 loads out there these days, it's still easier to find a wide variety in 12ga, and probably also in 20ga.

shortwave · March 13, 2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

I wonder how much effectiveness is lost with the barrel length the Judge offers?

Thats a good question Shane.

I've never chronographed the Judge with any ammo I've shot through mine.

March 6, 2011, 04:51 PM	#1
Max007 Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2011 Location: Southeast Florida Posts: 8	410 for HD I was in a local gun shop recently for an unrelated reason, and was shown a Moossberg 500 in 410. I was told that it was a good HD gun with light recoil. I've never owned a shotgun, and was wondering if this was true.

March 6, 2011, 05:59 PM	#4
kaylorinhi Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: The brown eye of america Posts: 463	410 for HD Heck, bird shot close-enough would work! __________________ Buy your guns by Yardline, Not Looks.

March 6, 2011, 10:03 PM	#9
Marrok Member Join Date: March 6, 2011 Posts: 15	I own a single shot NEF 410. I know from my experience using the gun that it would be perfect for home defense. Buck or bird doesnt really matter, most intruders see a gun and run, those that are stupid enough to stay will definitely regret it either way. 12 gauge shotguns take alot of credit and deserve it. But comparing the two is like comparing a ferrari and a ford fiesta. they both will do what you need, even if one is more powerful than the other. this has been mentioned on other forums I frequent and its the same all over. A 410 will do the job, dont let anyone tell you different. Ive had family take monster deer with a 410 when people said it was impossible. Its your decision on what you pick. __________________ "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.) Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

March 12, 2011, 03:21 PM	#17
Buzzard Bait Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 502	potential yes I think the 410 buck shot load is an interesting load that may need more work. I saw a web sight that had tested the rounds in some different targets. It looked like the top pellet came out in good shape but the bottom balls looked like they were flat as a washer by the time the got out of the barrel. seems like if the load had some sort of plastic discarding sleeve to protect and support the balls or filler it would perform better. Most 410 shot guns are easy to shoot and easy to get good hits with. No denying that 4 or 5 double or triple 0 pellets at that kind of velocity with the ability for more follow up rounds in a hurry is a HD round to be considered. bb

March 13, 2011, 01:50 AM	#20
Big Bill Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Idaho Posts: 1,053	I wouldn't own a 410. You might as well just spit on the perp. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." - General George Patton Jr

March 6, 2011, 04:54 PM	#2
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	Not bad with buckshot or slugs. Ever since the Taurus Judge came out there has been 410 SD shells being sold. Last year a buddy's kid shot and killed a doe with a 410 slug.

March 6, 2011, 05:36 PM	#3
rottieman33 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 223	I look at it this way its a gun you point it at anybody thats breaks in to your house there going to run or be in a lot of pain after you shoot them.

March 6, 2011, 07:09 PM	#5
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	Sure it'll work, but for my money I'll be shooting 12 gauge with 3" 00 Buck. I'm not on board with the low recoil crowd. With this stuff it'll only take one well aimed shot to put em down.

March 6, 2011, 07:41 PM	#6
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Good? I don't know if I would use that word. Adequate? Perhaps. .410 slugs are comparable to a spicy pistol cartridge. 5 00 pellets aren't too bad. The thing is, though, is that if you are going to go with a shotgun for defense, the only reason to go with a .410 would be for light weight or low recoil. At similar velocities, what do you think is going to be more effective? A 1/5 oz slug, or a 1 oz slug? 5 00 pellets? Or 9 pellets? Or how about 12 pellets?

March 6, 2011, 09:16 PM	#7
pelo801 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 718	I think the 410 get the short end by people comparing it to the 12 ga. Well we all know it's no 12 ga. The winchester 410 3 inch slugs are about 110 gr. going about 1800 ft/sec. Well according to the box. Even at 1600 ft/sec., that's a really spicy pistol round. http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm I found this link, that has come charts and graph comparisions. You can decide for yourself. I realize the 410 has some limitations, but mostly for hunting. We're talking about HD though. Maybe you don't like shooting a 12 ga. or don't like the recoil. I don't hear anybody saying a 38 spl isn't enough for HD. So a 3 inch shell of 00 buck, 5 pellets, is just shy of 5 38 spl at once at a lot higher velocity. I think that's plenty. I found this too, i'ts more about hunting. I still think it's interesting, especially the part about comparing the 410 to 10mm, 357, and 44-40. http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwslug.html I'm not trying to start a debate here. I just think the 410 is a good HD weapon. And probably could kill a dear out to 60 yds. Maybe farther.

March 6, 2011, 09:56 PM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	It beats bare hands, or even a baseball bat. But, try out some shotguns before committing your cash to one.

March 6, 2011, 10:06 PM	#10
rottieman33 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 223	Get a Saiga 12,20, or 410 and get a 10 round mag

March 7, 2011, 10:57 AM	#11
Fiv3 Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2010 Posts: 273	I keep a .410 as a truck gun. It's mainly for "just in case". I have various different shells stocked for defense, varmint, and food. Would I want to rely on a .410 single, double, or pump for home/camp defense? Not if I had a choice. However, it's a Saiga with a 15 round mag. What it lacks in raw power, it makes up for shots on target and speed of follow up shots. Nice little camp/truck gun that can be pressed into defense if need be.

March 7, 2011, 11:39 AM	#13
hogcowboy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2010 Location: N33 32.941 W 97 53.546 Texas Posts: 231	My wife's go to is a .410. She's very comfortable with that size gun. So I'd say if you're looking for a light recoil gun, that's it.

March 7, 2011, 11:55 AM	#14
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	To those of us who are primarily shotgunners, a .410-bore is a mouse load typically relegated to .410-bore clay target events, firearms familiarization for youngsters, and nuisance targets. Like many folks, my good guns are locked away; but, there's the ancestral single-shot 3" .410 in the coat closet and a box of shells in the mantle clock. It's not my HD go-to gun. On the other hand, to a pistol shooter, a .410-bore shot shell makes a revolver a hand cannon. It's the proliferation of the .410-bore revolvers and "HD" loads specially tailored to them that has folks thinking about the .410-bore as an appropriate HD load. Is the .410-bore shot shell appropriate for HD, it all depends on your perspective. But, as Dave McC reminded us, "It beats bare hands…"

March 9, 2011, 11:26 AM	#15
oletymer Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 338	The 3 inch Winchester 410 buckshot load contains 5 000 pellets not 00. Any one getting hit at HD range with that load is going to be severely injured or dead.

March 9, 2011, 05:43 PM	#16
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	If a man pointed one at me I would ask him not to shoot me with that, it can kill a person. A bb gun can kill a person so why argue over how effective it is? Use what you feel comfy with and be prepared. Most folks will never ever need any type of defense at all. But, best have a plan in case it does.

March 12, 2011, 05:04 PM	#18
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	The best thing that happened to the 410 is the Taurus Judge. Not because the gun is great or anything like that but because its popularity has made the big manufacturers to rethink their 410 offerings and use better components. I have long been tired of the '410 is worthless use a 12 gauge with reduced recoil loads' statements floated. This thinking is ususally associated with those that think the 12 gauge is the beginning and end of the conversation. Let's look at some of the offerings betwen the two. 00 Buck Nominal weight 53 gr. Diameter .33" 000 Buck Nominal weight 70 gr. Diameter .36" 12 Gauge reduced recoil 00 Buck: SAAMI barrel length 30" 9 pellet velocity 1125 fps (source Winchester) 8 pellet velocity 1200 fps (source Remington) 410 bore: SAAMI barrel length 26" 2 1/2" 3 pellet 000 Buck velocity 1300 fps (source Winchester) 4 pellet 000 Buck velocity 1200 fps (source Federal) 3" 5 Pellet 000 Buck velocity 1135 fps (source Winchester) 5 pellet 00 Buck velocity 1230 fps (source Sellier & Bellot) Both loads can lose between 50 -100 fps when fired from an 18.5 in barrel. However, the 410 gives up nothing in velocity when compared to a 12 gauge firing a reduce recoil load of any flavor. Since you are usually firing 000 Buck in the 410, your per pellet energy is going to be 25-30% greater. A shotguns main effectiveness comes from multiple hits shocking the body into shutting down much like a burst from a SMG. Since we are talking houshold distances you can reasonably expect to put all pellets on target. Whether its a three pellet load, a four pellet load, or a five pellet load; hit a goblin in the boiler room with a 410 buck load and you will ruin his day. Is a 410 the best choice? Not really but neither is an 18 pellet load from a 12 or 10 gauge 3 1/2" shell. Go to Brassfetcher, then the "Old Website" link and look at the results of the Winchester 3" load from an 18" barrel.

March 12, 2011, 08:28 PM	#19
Superhouse 15 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2007 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 844	My ex was recoil sensitive and I bought her the HD .410 Mossberg. I'm glad I got it in the Divorce. I kept S&B "Spherical Bullet" buckshot in it until I got my hands on the Winchester PDX loads (in the gun now) and Federal's Judge load (in Tuff Strips). It's still in my safe, near the front, just in case.

March 13, 2011, 03:31 PM	#22
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I have a friend who went to school with a kid that killed his stepdad with a 410. The step dad kept beating on his mom and one day the kid just went off. When he shot the stepdad he said he fell flat on his back. The shot blew his heart out of his chest and he stated the heart beat for a bit then stopped. My friend said this kid was a little different after that. I guess he should have tried spitting on his stepdad first. I am sure he would have been just as incapacitated. I wouldn't have any problem using a 410 for home defense. I just loaded three .390 balls in a 410 hull and shot a 2x4 about 15 feet away. It blew through the board and badly splintered the back side of the wood. I wish I had of had a couple more boards behind the first to see what the total penetration was. If you think that is a weak load grab a 2x4 and see if with all your strength you can stab a screw driver through it. You can't. Not even half way.

March 13, 2011, 04:21 PM	#24
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Would a .410 work? Sure. Would it offer any advantage over a 20ga for HD? Not that I can see, unless an intended user is severely recoil sensitive. Like some others here, I'd personally go with a 12ga or a 20ga. (In fact, the HD long-gun at my place is a Remington 870 with a 21" smoothbore slug barrel.) I have no trouble with 12ga recoil, and my lady can handle it quite well; however, she would prefer a 20ga, if she were going to get into sporting use. While there are some good .410 loads out there these days, it's still easier to find a wide variety in 12ga, and probably also in 20ga.