Drawing in self defense, BUGs and extra ammo...

[leadcounsel]

I'm gonna stir the pot alittle bit here but with good reason.

There has been a lot of discussion about these topics. I personally carry everyplace I legally can, and even usually at home. However, since I started legally carrying in 2002, I've fortunately never needed to use my gun.

I'm curious to see if anyone has ever been in a life threatening situation where you had to draw your primary? Have you ever been in a situation where your primary failed or you shot all of your ammo and needed to reload or draw your BUG and shoot it?

Also, please note whether you are a LEO and it's your job or a civilian if you respond.

[coolridelude]

well in TX i know you can have a rifle or shotgun in your car or truck. was coming back for a long camping trip. i was going to my friends house in oakcliff. if you live in dallas you know what i am talking about. it was late and i made a wrong turn. i was following directions he gave me. never been to his house before. well i got lost and ended up by the zoo. well it was dark and scary. i was at a stop sign and out of know where a crackhead pulls a knife on me .i had the windows up. got scared and let the go of the clutch so car stopped. next to me is my friends 12g that i had borrowed just in case of animals while camping. so i put it up to the window and when he saw it he took off. so did i.(started the car)

i have had other encounter with the two legged animals, where i have had to use a gun. not to shoot them but to scare them. yes i have shot at a few in mexico. that is another story

[tsavo]

How much you wanna bet I could throw a football over them mountains

[coolridelude]

tsavo, are you saying i am lying.

i bet you could throw a football over the mountains. but you did not say how far from the mountain you are. or if you where in a chopper and throw it over. and what mountains.

[JDSnead]

I am a civilian that has had a concealed carry permit since I was 16 (the Sheriff was a patient of my father's). I carry concealed daily but have only had to draw my weapon once in 35 years.

I had to use a pistol to deter an enraged older man. I was 18 and on my way home late one night. I was passed by a car that came out of nowhere on a four lane road, abruptly cut in front of me, and forced me off the road. A middle-aged man got out screaming, grabbed a tire iron or crowbar out of his back seat, and came toward me in my car.

I got my licensed Chief's Special out of the glovebox and did what I had been taught: I went to the V and hollered at him to stop. He took a few more steps, I yelled: "I WILL shoot you!" and cocked the hammer.

He stopped, yelled at me for a few more seconds, and then got into his car and drove off.

I stayed there for a few minutes and finally stopped shaking, then drove home.

My first, and so far only, use of a handgun. (I believe it probably saved my life that night).

[tsavo]

Back in 82 I could throw a pig skin a' quarter mile.

[alpineman]

I'm a civilian, and I've had my CCW for 5 years in 2 states. I've never drawn my gun in self defense.

I carry a spare mag, but no BUG. I figure if things go so far south that would require a BUG, I'd be better off buggin' out...

[smince]

The following happened in 1997:

One winter morning, about 4a.m. driving to work, semi-rural setting. Passed a vehicle with hood up, no one around. About 2 miles later, a woman in a shirt and jeans is walking with a toddler, wrapped up in a jacket. Assuming(wrongly!) that was her vehicle, I stopped to give them a ride (temperature was 29* when I had left the house). She thanked me and as she was buckling the toddler into my truck, said to "take us to the Police now!". Before I could ask what was going on, a van pulls up and blocks my truck. Three men(one very large) and another woman exit the vehicle and start threatening all. All appear to be intoxicated. I power-lock the doors and draw my SW Centennial and aim at the large man who seems to be the leader of the group(I have 5 HP rounds in the J-frame, backed up by 5 more in a Bianchi Speed-Strip). I ordered him to move his vehicle. The sight of the gun changed his attitude, but fortunately the PD arrived at this time. Seems another motorist had seen the commotion and called.

Never really sure what it was all about. I gave my statement and was allowed to go on to work. Some kind of domestic dispute, evidently. I know there were several things I could have done differently. Things just happened so fast, as they always do in a situation such as this.

Would 5 + my reload have been enough? Assuming I didn't miss? Fortunately, I didn't have to find out. But I started carrying my Colt Defender and a spare mag after this and reserved the 5-shooter to the role of "carry when it is impractical to carry anything bigger".

EDIT: Civilian(former USAF, License to CCW since 1983)

[payne]

No, never needed to draw on someone. Carry one or two spare mags though.

[The British Soldier]

I served 6 years in Northern Ireland with the Army [not all at once though!].
When I first went over we were issued a 9mm Browning and one magazine of 10 rounds, because that was an 'easy' number for the storeman to manage. I recall looking at those 10 rounds thinking 'I hope I don't bump into anyone!' Fortunately on that tour I never did [at least when I had a pistol]; later I returned in a counter terrorist role and we routinely carried 9mm SIG P226 with 3 full magazines as your 'body weapon'. One mag loaded and two in a magazine holder on the left hip and the SIG on the right; both looped into my belt.
Our worst nightmare was the illegal vehicle check point, where the IRA showed their presence by stopping cars and 'dominating' the ground. When this happened we knew that we were in a 'fight or die' situation; even with pistols one could create sufficient noise and fire superiority to exit the car, fire & manoeuvre back then break left or right off the road. We knew that staying in the car meant getting killed, because it was where all the fire was directed; and once clear the lanes were a natutal killing zone because there was no cover from fire or view.
Our SOP was to exit the car, move back one or two 'bounds' then exit left or right. One person would fire as the other moved [we call it fire & manoevure]; which keeps the enemy preoccupied because we were a lot more accurate than they were! Unfortunately they tended to turn up with 7.62mm machine guns (MAG 58s) and G3s or AKs.
You need at least 2 magazines to extract yourself from that ambush and the 3rd because you are now 'on the run' (OTR).
Near Londonderry a soldier, on his own, fought off 4 well armed terrorists because he knew what he was doing with a pistol. They rammed his car off the road and he got out, drew his 9mm and started shooting them with accurate, effective double taps - which is how we are trained to shoot a pistol, always a double tap. Two to the chest, two to the head; if you are really feeling 'good' then just two to the head works a treat [even with 9mm full metal jacket].
This soldier killed 2 terrorists, badly wounded the 3rd and the 4th decided that it was time to 'retreat'.
A great day for the Army and for sound training, plus a confident attitude in your own skills with a pistol.

[Joven]

I've drawn two times but never fired. Both times were for what turned out to be stupid things.
#1 I was sitting in my living room with the back door open when my dog started barking. I looked outside to see a man coming over my fence. I ran and grab my pistol and the cordless phone, went back to the back door and saw the same man looking over my fence from a different angle with binoculars. When he saw the gun in low ready position he Identified himself as the meter reader.
#2 I was awoken in the middle of the night by voices outside my bedroom window. I grabbed my pistol to investigate, pressing the muzzle to the glass as I moved the blinds. Two kids who had snuck out to toilet paper houses found themselves looking down the wrong end of a gun and took off running.

[R1145]

I've never had to use force against a person.

I think for most non-military scenarios, reloading is not going to come into play.

From my training, however, I know that in many shooting situations, the shooter focuses on the threat to such an extent that they often find themselves clicking an empty weapon, having fired all rounds without having realized it.

I think if you carry a revolver, you need at least one reload. Same with a single-stack auto.

High capacity weapons, I think you can get away without a spare mag.

I'm lazy and usually carry a j-frame off duty, with a speedloader in my pocket. However, there have been a rash of take-over robberies involving multiple gunmen. I think I'd be in big trouble then.

So, swear to god, I'm gonna start carrying my Glock 19 with a spare 17 rounder in a proper holster. Tomorrow...

For the BUG, I don't think you need to carry a reload, the BUG being the functional equivelent of reloading (the "New York Reload").

You always carry one more parachute than you think you're gonna need; same with guns.

[john in jax]

I ran a Gun Shop/Pawn Shop for over 10 years. In that 10 years I drew once on a group of 3 young men that were acting very suspiciously. If I moved where I could seem them they moved to put a display or clothes rack between us, and they had a 4th guy sitting in the car out front with it running - - I just had a VERY BAD feeling about the whole situation. But they left quickly and quietly when I drew my .45 and the owner came out with a pump 12ga.

On another occasion I "buzzed" in a young female only to notice she was very upset. Well, before the door could swing closed and lock her boyfriend (I found out later) charged in and started beating the @#%^ out of her. I shouted, while drawing my .45 and was about to end his life right there when he stopped. I cussed at him, I threatend him, I did everything I could think to do without physically harming him then "buzzed" him out. I tried to help the girl up off the floor only to get chewed out for interfering in her business.

[buzz_knox]

I think for most non-military scenarios, reloading is not going to come into play.

From my training, however, I know that in many shooting situations, the shooter focuses on the threat to such an extent that they often find themselves clicking an empty weapon, having fired all rounds without having realized it.

I think your first statement is contradicted by your second. If you shoot to empty, reloading had better come into play. Reloading will also most likely come into play if you need to clear a malfunction.

[cuate]

I know the real estate from which Coolridelude speaks, the Zoo was Marsalis Park Zoo and that is no mans land! I and my cousin were tooling it down Industrial Blvd in Dallas and a car load of zombies pulled alongside and wanted to give us a hard time. Then as they saw the pistol I heard them yell, "Look out, that "motorscooter's" got a gun. An Indy race car couldn't have caught up with them as they made a right turn at the next intersection back into no man's land. Left Big D in 1970 and it was the best move we ever made.

[spacemanspiff]

i couldnt draw to save my life.

[R1145]

You're right. What I meant to emphasize was that I don't think having access to a large amount of ammo gives an advantage, that nearly all situations can be resolved by quick, accurate firing of relatively few rounds.

However, while the physiological response to stress that leads to reflexively firing all rounds is well-documented, and a secondary malfunction could lead to needing to strip out the mag, I stand by my original statement:

I think if you carry a revolver, you need at least one reload. Same with a single-stack auto. High capacity weapons, I think you can get away without a spare mag.

No one has yet posted giving an account of having to transition to the BUG or needing more ammo, except the Limey, and that's an example of an elevated threat level that doesn't exist in my area (yet...).

On duty, the main advantage of the BUG is in gun retention situations, which hopefully won't arise in CCW scenarios.

I still feel confident carrying the Glock 19 without a spare. Like the parachute comment, if I'm on duty, I expect that I will be called upon to confront dangerous situations, and I carry spare ammo and additional weapons. Off duty, I seek only to report and be the best possible witness. One gun is enough for me (at least thus far...).

[leadcounsel]

As of 10/14/05 there have been about 440 viewings of this poll and 50 votes and about 17 postings. Of those that voted only 4% needed a BUG or more ammo -- this was 2 people. One of them was in an elevated military situation and the other didn't write a response... This drops the percent down to 2%.

1 in 3 voters have had to draw in self defense. 17 in 440 viewers stated they had to draw in self defense. Worst case, about 4% of people have had to draw in self defense which is significant enough to warrant carrying a gun.

Conversely, approximately 1 in 9 viewers voted, and only 2 votes were for a BUG/extra ammo. 1 vote in 440 viewings for civilian situations where a BUG/extra ammo was needed is rare. Based on that one might infer that .22% of people have been in situations where a BUG / extra ammo were necessary.

At this point it supports my thoughts that one gun and 1 mag of ammo is enough for civilian carry...

[smince]

Even LIBERALS take a spread of 1000 before they come to a conclusion

I don't want to be in that .22%!

[tanksoldier]

I voted "never had to draw my gun"... which applies to civilian life.

In Iraq I've cycled thru up to 3 weapons systems in one engagement, but that situation hopefuly won't come up in civiliam life.

[Doug.38PR]

I was home alone one night and happened to be cleaning my Colt Official Police .38. I was in my room when I heard a slight "clang clung." I dismissed it as being one of the cats playing around in the house somewhere, but a split second later remembered that the cats WERE NOT HERE. Having the cylinder of the revolver open I grabbed a speedloader from the bag, dropped 6 into the cylinder, went up front, started popping on lights as I went to the front of the house, toggled the front door knobb and realized THAT WAS WHAT I HEARD, somebody had toggled the front door knob. I unlocked and opened the door and went outside and walked around the house with my gun and found nothing. I assumed I had heard things, or that nothing was wrong and went back in. I found out later that even though nothing came of it at all, I should have notified the Constable just to let them know that there might very well be somebody prowling around the neighborhood.

Every now and then the outside sensor will turn the outside light on detecting movement (it's not supposed to pick up anything smaller than a cat) on a NONwindy night or we will hear a funny noise outside and I will step out with gun in hand to look in the driveway.

I typically keep my holster on the table beside me while watching TV or hanging on the bedpost next to me at night. It can sit in that holster from now to the end of time and it won't hurt or inconvinience anyone (no we don't have children), but it is there if I ever need it.

I'm just a guy who collects nice old revolvers and a few autos. Never had to use them against anyone.

[ISP2605]

LE. Carrying 439 at the time. Required reload.

[MX265]

I voted never had to use weapon, but I did have a road rage nutbag car in front of me once who decided to get out of his car at a stoplight and charge towards me with a stick bat or something...

I had my window part way down, shouted "Stop where you are and do not proceed further" and held my gun up still in it's holster pointing down..He then returned to his vehicle and sped onward...

I don't want to ever get in trouble here for "brandishing" a weapon, so I try to keep in the holster pointing downward until absolutely necessary...That's the reason I also use an opne holster that can be fired thru if necessary...

BTW, Doug, this is only advice based on reading, but you could have broken at least 3 laws by leaving your house to investigate and potentially shoot the perp...In most places it's ONLY a legal defense argument if the perp enters your home...Questions to be asked would be, "Was the guy\girl intoxicated and tried to enter the wrong house?", "Was he\she someone dropping of newsletters or ad's to hang on peoples door handles" etc....What if it were 5 guys who trying to break and enter, you'd be safer in doors.....

I've had my garage door "clunked" in the middle of the night..I called the PD immediatly, because there is no way I would risk myself or family by putting us in that situation...Now if they DO enter the house, that leaves us no choice but to "present" and use if necessary any form of defense...

Off my podium now, I just wanted to bring up some points to be on the "legal" safe side....