|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 24, 2013, 09:55 AM | #126 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
|
|
October 24, 2013, 09:56 AM | #127 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 258
|
Here is a second incident where an open carrier was targeted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY&noredirect=1
And for the record I am pro open carry. I just dislike the approach taken that it never happens. And a third. http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/u...holstered-gun/ And another. http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonpatton.htm
__________________
Half the country hates my business, the other half my hobby. Last edited by Closing The Gap; October 24, 2013 at 10:11 AM. |
October 24, 2013, 10:08 AM | #128 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
My observations below are only my own; I do not make them on behalf of anyone else.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I dislike a facet of a part of the 2d Am. advocacy culture I sometime see illustrated here and potentially reflected in your language above. I also saw it earlier in this thread. Quote:
If you think that observation unfairly describes your position, I have little investment in it and welcome correction. I do note that self-appointed custodians of one or another right can appear clubby and uninviting.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
||||||
October 24, 2013, 10:17 AM | #129 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
It is the areas outside of the BG's dominion, you should open carry because just like the hyenas, they leave their den to find prey as do the BGs. That is where OC is needed. And as for the student OCing; he obviously knew enough to retain his gun. There are thousands of car jackings that occur every year. Do you leave your car at home to avoid them. There has been one gun stolen from a person who was unwisely open carrying in a BG's area and as a result of that, the opposition uses that one red herring incident to argue that all OCing is bad. Think about it - thousands of carjackings annually but you still drive. Two unwise OCer guns stolen in recorded history - OC bad! |
|
October 24, 2013, 10:21 AM | #130 | |||
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Quote:
I don't think that simple statements that I oppose certain generic actions qualify as partisanship. Partisanship would be the refusal to work with someone of a different viewpoint simply because of that viewpoint. Quite to the contrary, I'd like to help IdahoCarry make the most cogent argument possible, whether or not I agree, because he is part of the 2A community. Quote:
If someone making a claim does not wish to be greeted with increasingly impatient responses, the appropriate redress would be to supply the requested documentation. Quote:
Even here, it is very much like peeing in the wind. I can only hope that someone will come around to a more reasoned approach for the "real world". Much like my position in OC, my objection the political actions of others in our community is based on what I consider a wise approach, not one of a desire to encroach on their freedoms or prevent them from having their say. I very often wish that a great many folks would "say it differently", be it word or action, but I understand that such is the price of freedom.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
|||
October 24, 2013, 10:22 AM | #131 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 258
|
Actually I posted another. However as I stated I am PRO open carry I do it myself. What I am against is the specious argument that being targeted for open carrying never happens.
In my opinion if I can find three incidents where it has happened and been reported there should be many more that weren't newsworthy. Not to mention those where the person carrying stopped the individual and nothing came of it after that. Again I'm on the side of OC. Just not on the side of rhetoric and emotional argument.
__________________
Half the country hates my business, the other half my hobby. Last edited by Closing The Gap; October 24, 2013 at 10:28 AM. |
October 24, 2013, 10:25 AM | #132 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
I appreciate your posting the 3rd event, and that too proves the point of failure to practice Wisdom and Prudence. This guy was Open Carrying in a bad area at 4:30 in the morning. Who in their right mind would be walking in the jungle at 4:30am on a Sunday morning? By the way, I did acknowledge that it did happen in my original post. |
|
October 24, 2013, 10:26 AM | #133 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
I have an idea which you are free to disregard. Rather than focusing on ways to refute the limiting statements with which you are faced, would it work better to ask for more persuasive revisions of the meritorious parts of your claims? My guess would be that there would be many here willing to help as editors who could improve your message. Let me also urge you not to view challenge and argument as a hindrance to be resented, but an opportunity to be enjoyed.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
October 24, 2013, 10:30 AM | #134 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Zuki, as far as "partisanship," let's review the Facebook post Al quoted from Idaho: Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
||||
October 24, 2013, 10:34 AM | #135 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Posts: 258
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Half the country hates my business, the other half my hobby. |
||
October 24, 2013, 10:43 AM | #136 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
One of the purposes in posting this was to get the responses that I did. I needed the weak points identified and challenged. Through this torrent of responses I have gleaned a lot of good information and will, after my events end tonight, spend the weekend adjusting my original post to make it stronger and address more fully the request for more data to support my claims. I put this out to my state a few weeks ago and apparently it was totally accepted because I received no challenge. That is why I ventured into the national forums and this has worked well. There are some here that are truly open to OC but too many who are totally opposed to it being used as a political statement. To them I can only say, thank God they weren't in Boston in the 1760s. |
|
October 24, 2013, 10:49 AM | #137 | |||
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Quote:
Notice the wording of my post: Quote:
Quote:
Simply naming an unrelated or slightly correlated study is not sufficient.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
|||
October 24, 2013, 10:59 AM | #138 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Where you do that, you are a participant in the wedge driving, a dance that generally takes two. Quote:
Employing the language of a constituency or interest group apart from the general population does not mesh well with civil rights advocacy. ____________________ Do note that the lion/hyena business isn't mine.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
||||
October 24, 2013, 11:25 AM | #139 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
|
|
October 24, 2013, 11:33 AM | #140 | |
Member
Join Date: October 20, 2013
Location: Hidden Springs, Idaho
Posts: 33
|
Quote:
We are facing powerful forces who would, if they could, take all of our guns. Obama restated last night after the shooting of the school teacher that he is not giving up on his gun control measures. |
|
October 24, 2013, 12:07 PM | #141 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
I haven't the slightest desire to engage in debate along those lines.
The differences between 1760s English colonialism and 21st Century America with freely elected politicians is clear beyond any common sense. These is no requirement for further definition. Equally clear is the difference between political activism and the carrying of a firearm (by any method) as a means of self-defense.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
October 24, 2013, 12:23 PM | #142 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
|
Quote:
In the interest of helping you craft better arguments, let me point out something... Comparing general things to/against a specific incident is a tricky thing. Usually it results in giving the listener a different impression than what is intended. The fact that one specific incident of an OC having their gun taken simply shows that it can, and has happened. We all know this is possible. Police are the common everyday OC, everywhere. And they get their guns taken sometimes! DO not confuse the fact that not having numerous reported incidents available for easy reference means something is impossible or extremely unlikely. Or the opposite.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
October 24, 2013, 01:11 PM | #143 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
The post-Sandy Hook legislation wasn't quashed by a landslide. It was by a very slim margin. We're still behind the ball, and that one guy who looks foolish (whether by intention or not) on the evening news hurts all of us.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
October 24, 2013, 01:33 PM | #144 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
||
October 24, 2013, 02:12 PM | #145 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
Will I ever meet her? Will I have a chance at changing her poor first impression if I do? Probably not. A few bad apples can spoil it for us.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
October 24, 2013, 03:06 PM | #146 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
If:
1. It is admitted that OC is dangerous in a risky place, then I repeat I doubt its utility. It is claimed that you shouldn't go to risky places but if you must - why take a step that increases your risk? Also who is to say that the gun makes you seem like prey for high end predators won't happen in nice places? 2. Thus, from incidents and the above analyses we know that OC cannot be claimed as the universal, never failing deterrents. The statistical methodology exists to see if there is an OC deterrent effect. No such studies have been done. Past studies were not specific to OC laws recently put into effect. Those who argue that they will grapple, thus admit that the deterrent value has failed. They fail to realize that you do not have to grapple to get the gun away. They see folks grapple on TV with one opponent who starts the fight by clearing announcing their intent. Yeah, that's the way it would happen. 3. It is claimed that OC will desensitize folks to gun presence as there is no uproar in some locales that are gun friendly. However, we do know from the aggressive priming literature, that firearms presence can engender negative thoughts. I can quote it in depth - trust me (PhD in this area). So there is no evidence yet that OC will change public opinion positively if negative gun attitudes exist. The evidence suggests otherwise. 4. The claim that not supporting unfounded OC claims somehow makes you not a supporter of OC or willing to stand up for the RKBA is scurrilous. I think OC is tactically stupid. I don't think it has particular political utility. Thus, I support us drinking tea and God Save the Queen. Or perhaps, I stand up to my boss and argue for campus concealed carry - which is much more useful to my real world than carrying a gun to Starbucks. Perhaps, I testify to the TX House and get interviewed on the tube, played on several TX stations and then quoted in the major Texas newspapers. That delights my antigun work place. Where's my crumpets and bubble and squeak?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
October 24, 2013, 03:13 PM | #147 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
Some mothers of small children have a husband who shoots recreationally. Many have a gun in the home. Your sense that this is her first impression on the issue may be misguided. I don't see the problem in explaining that people we might not like have rights, just like people we do like. The fellow with a rifle at the mall, or leaving the shop after having his rifle bore-sighted as Al was, might not be her best friend, just as the fellow with the camo covered 4x4, might not be at her next dinner party, and just as people who yell at one another on the TV might not be over to her place at Christmas. Those people are still correctly entitled carry an arm, or drive a silly looking truck, or speak as they please. Free speech advocates know that someone will speak in unpleasant ways, and they take that into account in arguing their positions. They do not function with a sense that everyone with a blog has a corporate/collective PR responsibility. If you meet Suzie Soccer Mom, and you can't persuade her about the value of exercising constitutionally protected rights, even when individuals do it ham-handedly, you likely weren't going to win her over anyway. The internicene blame for the failure to persuade third parties seems a bit of an excuse.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
October 24, 2013, 04:17 PM | #148 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
A few years ago, Ted Nugent got on stage during a concert, brandished an AR-15, and shouted "suck on this, Hillary!" It made national news. Pundits had a field day with it. Ted's on the Board of Directors. Therefore, he's the NRA, right? To many viewers, he is. We can hue and cry all we want that he doesn't always represent us. Doesn't matter. The damage is done. We're not going to get a chance to talk to most of those people. Their minds are made up.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
October 24, 2013, 06:56 PM | #149 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 2,018
|
Quote:
The visible availability of the gun itself was the catalyst of the first crime and the singular instrument used in the second. Don’t assume it’s the first time its happened, or that it'll be the last. Pull the stats on how many officers have had gun-grab attempts or been attacked for their pistols by those whom they were not perusing/arresting to begin with. Follow that by producing evidence that you and the OC crowd are somehow better trained to deal with such grabs. How are you more prepared than those who make it their profession? Yes, I've repeatedly stuffed the Tyler case in your face because it’s the most recent and most definitive example of an OC gone wrong from start to finish. It’s a solid showing that criminals don’t magically shy away from a guy with a gun on his hip, and that a few are actually drawn to the gun as if it were a fat diamond hanging around the owners neck. OC is a statistic in the making combined with low public acceptance... at statistic that none of us here care to see inflated to the detriment of overall 2A support. Quote:
It just occurred to me.... your three days, a huge first post, and 29 more posts into this forum without making any headway. You've attracted the scowls of every scholar, lawyer, and effective 2A activist here who conservatively studies and assists in the promotion of 2A in a tangible manner that benefits us all in the real world as well as keeping an even keel here in the forum. Last edited by Dashunde; October 25, 2013 at 08:53 AM. |
||
October 25, 2013, 07:32 AM | #150 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
Quote:
If your experience is that the people to whom you speak or write find that language persuasive, compelling and productive, I encourage you to continue to use it. However, it strikes me as unlikely that your claim of responsibility for people whose behavior you oppose will persuade anyone who does not already agree with you, and is likely to be taken as overbearing by those who would defend the right described in the Second Amendment, but with whom you may have minor differences.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|