Newbie question about RL 15 vs RL 17 for .308 win.

AnthonyC. · July 26, 2015, 11:08 AM

Hello everyone,

I'm somewhat new to reloading and everything that I have searched and read about still has not answered my biggest question. I have a savage .308 that I'd like to shoot at 500 to 1000 yards, just for fun.

I'm my Hornady reloading manual, the only powder listed (Alliant wise) for one of the boxes of bullets I picked up (208gr. AMAX) is the reloader 15, which isn't a problem, I have 3 pounds of the stuff sitting around. But after searching for days, it seems that everyone else is using reloader 17.....

My question is why? And how to begin finding a safe reload point for switching powders if reloader 17 is so much better.....I can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for reloader 17 and the heavier bullets like the 208gr. Amax.

I appreciate the help in advance and I have a feeling this is a very newbie question to all of you veteran reloaders out there so I apologize in advance.

-Anthony

Marco Califo · July 26, 2015, 01:29 PM

Quote:

I can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for reloader 17 and the heavier bullets like the 208gr. Amax.

Ask Alliant:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/resourc...ant_Powder.pdf
There seems to be quite a bit more Alliant data in the booklet format linked above than the Alliant online reloading guide. Yes, R17 loads are there in the booklet on page 105.

Dave P · July 26, 2015, 01:58 PM

One of the powders burns faster than the other (I don't know which one), that is one difference between them.

A slower powder often works well with a heavier bullet (and a longer barrel). Gets the velocity up where it should be.

But if you use a faster powder with a heavier bullet, you may not get all the velocity you want.

T. O'Heir · July 26, 2015, 02:15 PM

"...can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for..." That's because 200's are the practical limit for the .308. OAL gets too long past 200.
For up to 600 yards think 168 match bullets. And a 175 past there.
RL 15 is much faster than 17. Sits at Number 99 vs 118 on the Burn Rate chart. RL 15 lives around IMR4064 for. RL 17 around the 4350s. IMR4064 is one of the 'go to' powders for .308 target shooters.

**Unclenick** · July 26, 2015, 02:55 PM

RL17 is slower, but it's also got a less aggressive progressivity which allows it to delay the peak a little, giving you the ability to use more powder so that it makes additional gas that helps keep accelerating the bullet as it goes further down the tube. It also has about 5% greater bulk density, so a greater weight of it fits in the same space. Thus it can produce more velocity for a given bullet. People preferring it in .308 are often trying to get maximum velocity rather than maximum accuracy. I don't know what your objectives are in this regard, but of course, which will be most accurate in your particular gun will be unknown until you actually try it.

I don't see any RL17 data for the 208, either. It's not a great surprise as bullets over about 180 grains in .308 Winchester begins to come up against the problem of reducing the powder capacity in the case too much for best muzzle energy performance. In other words, you hit a point where bullet length reduces powder capacity in the case so you can't get enough powder in to equal the energy you can put into a lighter bullet. Also, very long bullets have to be seated to a long COL that doesn't necessarily fit a standard length magazine. In this case, the 208 grain A-max has an ogive about 0.777" long. Add that to maximum case length and you get 2.927", which is over SAAMI maximum COL, and you may find you need to seat it even longer to get the jump to the throat that your gun likes best. So it may well have to be loaded singly in this chambering, though that probably doesn't concern you at 1000 yards.

Jimro · July 29, 2015, 08:43 AM

Quote:

I'm my Hornady reloading manual, the only powder listed (Alliant wise) for one of the boxes of bullets I picked up (208gr. AMAX) is the reloader 15, which isn't a problem, I have 3 pounds of the stuff sitting around. But after searching for days, it seems that everyone else is using reloader 17.....

My question is why? And how to begin finding a safe reload point for switching powders if reloader 17 is so much better.....I can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for reloader 17 and the heavier bullets like the 208gr. Amax.

Unclenick hit the nail on the head (as usual) in that it comes down to bulk density and burn rate for the "heavy bullets" in 308.

Data used for the Lapua 185gr D46 bullet here: http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html

Feedback from two shooters who have used the Re17 and 208 Amax combination: http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...et-spot-54102/ and http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ind...opic=3764437.0

Just know that the Reloader line of powders has a reputation for being temp sensitive, so a load you work up in Summer or Winter should be worked up again in the opposite season to ensure safety.

Jimro

RC20 · February 23, 2016, 05:28 PM

A bit of an old post but I was doing some research on R17 and wanted to make a correction.

R17 is not your normal Reloader powder. Different mfg with different chemistry (ie. slow progressive burn rate)

Supposed to be temperature insensitive I don't know that for a fact but that's the way its listed.

The only people I heard of that had issues were long distance shooters (30-06) and their goal was to get absolute max fps at disregard for the possible overpressure, highly compressed loads.

I too want to play with R17 as I have some of it, it may be a good one for longer distance shooting. in it some quantities and its an interesting power that may have wider application than current.

What I have not seen is the minimum charge (query into Aliant) and will see.
Max was listed as 50 gr.

603Country · February 23, 2016, 07:09 PM

I use R17 in my 260 Rem and 120 gr bullets. Accuracy results have been terrific. My newest bottle of R17 says that it isn't temp sensitive. The oldest bottle didn't say that.

stubbicatt · February 24, 2016, 07:01 AM

I use RL17 where I would otherwise use a 4350 powder. For 308 I haven't experimented with bullets heavier than 190 grains, so I cannot comment on that.

TimSr · February 24, 2016, 09:07 AM

I was liking it in my .308 M1A1 with 180 and 165gr bullets until I kept finding information that it was too slow and should not be used in an M1A1. I think the issue you will find with heavier bullets is, as others have stated, the powder fills the case, and you don't have room for the bullet.

I've just started playing with in in 7mm RemMag, and with 150gr bullets it is truly awesome as far as accuracy.

RC20 · February 25, 2016, 12:10 PM

stubbicat:

What's your experience in the lighter bullets with R17?

I believe its never changed so the temp insensitive would have been there all along.

I think they did a new packaging and more information.

kerreckt · February 25, 2016, 06:35 PM

I have used RL17 with 173gr-220gr in 30-06, with great results. Haven't tried it in .308. I load .308 with 165gr. with RL15 or 2000MR.

RC20 · February 26, 2016, 10:54 PM

I just got done with a run of loads of R17 in the 308 using Horandy match 168s.

Mixed bag, at times it looks brilliant, then throws a flyer that I am sure is not me. some killer 4 shot groups but the 4 shots are random. The flyer falls anywhere from shot 1 to shot 5.

I am down in the load areas, started at 41 grs and worked up to 44.

I know that's a bit low load, per Alliance they start 10% below maximum (they have not tested this bullet but did the Sierra 168, top load was 50 gr.

Starting would then be 45.

It looks like it has potential, seating was dialed in on other rounds and works, not sure if a different primer might help or? Remington primers right now but I have CCI, Winchester, BR2 CCI and magnum CCI.

July 26, 2015, 11:08 AM	#1
AnthonyC. Junior Member Join Date: July 25, 2015 Posts: 1	Newbie question about RL 15 vs RL 17 for .308 win. Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to reloading and everything that I have searched and read about still has not answered my biggest question. I have a savage .308 that I'd like to shoot at 500 to 1000 yards, just for fun. I'm my Hornady reloading manual, the only powder listed (Alliant wise) for one of the boxes of bullets I picked up (208gr. AMAX) is the reloader 15, which isn't a problem, I have 3 pounds of the stuff sitting around. But after searching for days, it seems that everyone else is using reloader 17..... My question is why? And how to begin finding a safe reload point for switching powders if reloader 17 is so much better.....I can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for reloader 17 and the heavier bullets like the 208gr. Amax. I appreciate the help in advance and I have a feeling this is a very newbie question to all of you veteran reloaders out there so I apologize in advance. -Anthony

July 26, 2015, 01:58 PM	#3
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	One of the powders burns faster than the other (I don't know which one), that is one difference between them. A slower powder often works well with a heavier bullet (and a longer barrel). Gets the velocity up where it should be. But if you use a faster powder with a heavier bullet, you may not get all the velocity you want. __________________ I think this country is screwed.

July 26, 2015, 02:15 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...can't seem to come across any .308 reloading data for..." That's because 200's are the practical limit for the .308. OAL gets too long past 200. For up to 600 yards think 168 match bullets. And a 175 past there. RL 15 is much faster than 17. Sits at Number 99 vs 118 on the Burn Rate chart. RL 15 lives around IMR4064 for. RL 17 around the 4350s. IMR4064 is one of the 'go to' powders for .308 target shooters. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 26, 2015, 02:55 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	RL17 is slower, but it's also got a less aggressive progressivity which allows it to delay the peak a little, giving you the ability to use more powder so that it makes additional gas that helps keep accelerating the bullet as it goes further down the tube. It also has about 5% greater bulk density, so a greater weight of it fits in the same space. Thus it can produce more velocity for a given bullet. People preferring it in .308 are often trying to get maximum velocity rather than maximum accuracy. I don't know what your objectives are in this regard, but of course, which will be most accurate in your particular gun will be unknown until you actually try it. I don't see any RL17 data for the 208, either. It's not a great surprise as bullets over about 180 grains in .308 Winchester begins to come up against the problem of reducing the powder capacity in the case too much for best muzzle energy performance. In other words, you hit a point where bullet length reduces powder capacity in the case so you can't get enough powder in to equal the energy you can put into a lighter bullet. Also, very long bullets have to be seated to a long COL that doesn't necessarily fit a standard length magazine. In this case, the 208 grain A-max has an ogive about 0.777" long. Add that to maximum case length and you get 2.927", which is over SAAMI maximum COL, and you may find you need to seat it even longer to get the jump to the throat that your gun likes best. So it may well have to be loaded singly in this chambering, though that probably doesn't concern you at 1000 yards. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

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February 23, 2016, 05:28 PM	#7
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	A bit of an old post but I was doing some research on R17 and wanted to make a correction. R17 is not your normal Reloader powder. Different mfg with different chemistry (ie. slow progressive burn rate) Supposed to be temperature insensitive I don't know that for a fact but that's the way its listed. The only people I heard of that had issues were long distance shooters (30-06) and their goal was to get absolute max fps at disregard for the possible overpressure, highly compressed loads. I too want to play with R17 as I have some of it, it may be a good one for longer distance shooting. in it some quantities and its an interesting power that may have wider application than current. What I have not seen is the minimum charge (query into Aliant) and will see. Max was listed as 50 gr.

February 23, 2016, 07:09 PM	#8
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,996	I use R17 in my 260 Rem and 120 gr bullets. Accuracy results have been terrific. My newest bottle of R17 says that it isn't temp sensitive. The oldest bottle didn't say that.

February 24, 2016, 07:01 AM	#9
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	I use RL17 where I would otherwise use a 4350 powder. For 308 I haven't experimented with bullets heavier than 190 grains, so I cannot comment on that.

February 24, 2016, 09:07 AM	#10
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I was liking it in my .308 M1A1 with 180 and 165gr bullets until I kept finding information that it was too slow and should not be used in an M1A1. I think the issue you will find with heavier bullets is, as others have stated, the powder fills the case, and you don't have room for the bullet. I've just started playing with in in 7mm RemMag, and with 150gr bullets it is truly awesome as far as accuracy.

February 25, 2016, 12:10 PM	#11
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	stubbicat: What's your experience in the lighter bullets with R17? I believe its never changed so the temp insensitive would have been there all along. I think they did a new packaging and more information.

February 25, 2016, 06:35 PM	#12
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	I have used RL17 with 173gr-220gr in 30-06, with great results. Haven't tried it in .308. I load .308 with 165gr. with RL15 or 2000MR.

February 26, 2016, 10:54 PM	#13
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I just got done with a run of loads of R17 in the 308 using Horandy match 168s. Mixed bag, at times it looks brilliant, then throws a flyer that I am sure is not me. some killer 4 shot groups but the 4 shots are random. The flyer falls anywhere from shot 1 to shot 5. I am down in the load areas, started at 41 grs and worked up to 44. I know that's a bit low load, per Alliance they start 10% below maximum (they have not tested this bullet but did the Sierra 168, top load was 50 gr. Starting would then be 45. It looks like it has potential, seating was dialed in on other rounds and works, not sure if a different primer might help or? Remington primers right now but I have CCI, Winchester, BR2 CCI and magnum CCI.