The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 3, 2012, 08:25 AM   #1
Mrgunsngear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,415
M4 Contract Protest Update...

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...icit-new-bids/


Quote:
I just received word from the U.S. Government Accountability Office they’ve received written notification from the U.S. Army indicating the service will implement the GAO’s suggested remedy after Colt’s protest was sustained over the Army’s $84m contract award to Remington Arms Company for the production of M4 and M4A1 carbines.

This means the Army will soon seek new bids in an amended solicitation for the M4 contract. Look to the amended solicitation to clarify how parties must take into account the licensing payments due Colt that date back to the 1997 M4 Addendum.

The Army’s letter to the GAO was received September 24. As per the Competition and Contracting Act of 1984, the U.S. Army had 65 days to respond to the GAO’s July 24 recommendation.

“We’ve received notification from the Army that it will implement the GAO recommendation and we are reviewing next steps with our Defense team,” says Teddy Novin, Freedom Group’s Director of Public Affairs. “We look forward to working with the Army as we move forward with this process.”

Behind the scenes, sources at Remington are not happy at the prospect of a recompetition since their pricing was exposed as part of the original award. Some have suggested Remington may simply protest the outcome of this second process should they lose and carry on a cycle of protest over the contract. I’m no lawyer, but it seems to me that the merits of another protest will ultimately come up against the fact that the Army was complying with a corrective action suggested by the government. Dead end.

I’ll be interested to see if the Army splits the contract between Colt and Remington in a bid to appease both parties. If you’re new to the Remington M4 contract story, there’s more background in our previous articles.
I figured since many of us are current military members, former military, or supporters of our military this may be of interest here. The article is dated Oct 1st so this is pretty new information.
__________________
Mrgunsngear Youtube Channel
Mrgunsngear is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 03:27 PM   #2
Ridge_Runner_5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,925
So, the government found a better deal, the old supplier complained and the government caved?

Great....
Ridge_Runner_5 is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 04:00 PM   #3
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,862
I love Colt's products, but their fleecing of the American public over the past five decades with regards to M16/M4 contracts (not the weapon itself) borders on the criminal.

Just saying.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 04:17 PM   #4
DE Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2009
Posts: 215
Thanks for the update. I'm following the "process" with great interest; Navy vet and have been paying taxes since 1970 & and will probably be payin as long as I live! I'm hopin to see the AR market continue to flood and prices drop; I'm on the verge of buying an entry level to do battle with my AK74 clone, at the range.
DE Shooter is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 04:20 PM   #5
FrosSsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 595
The Colt manufacturers are just as bad as their fanboys. As soon as someone says they're going with a different brand the kicking and screaming begins
FrosSsT is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 04:42 PM   #6
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,315
Just so we are clear, when I carried a 16 in RVN, I did carry a Harrington and Richardson . Colt still grabs me though. I've been getting jacked for AR snobbery since 1985, when someone screwed up and asked me what I preferred. I really don't see a pinch of snuff difference between the milspecs.
However I do own an SP1 and an SP2.
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 04:48 PM   #7
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...icit-new-bids/
Look to the amended solicitation to clarify how parties must take into account the licensing payments due Colt that date back to the 1997 M4 Addendum.
Seems from the article that the licensing payments are part of, if not one of the main issues. Will be interesting to see how the next round goes...

Frankly I dont see that huge of an issue with going back through the process, because I am sure that the company who has the rights to a design will seek to be paid for the use of those rights if another company underbids their cost. Doesnt matter if its Colt, Remington, or the New Age Widget Company.

Edit to add:

Just in case others are curious, the royalty is 5%, see source below.

Link: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...etition-06942/

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Colt-M4-Data-Rights-The-Individual-Carbine-Competition-06942/
Those terms also state that the US Army would have to pay 5% in royalties to Colt, for every M4/M4A1 carbine and/or their unique parts procured from second sources, for another 26 years – through Dec 24/37.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; October 3, 2012 at 05:48 PM.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old October 3, 2012, 11:34 PM   #8
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,862
Quote:
Frankly I dont see that huge of an issue with going back through the process, because I am sure that the company who has the rights to a design will seek to be paid for the use of those rights if another company underbids their cost.
Because the cost of going through the process yet again will likely be a colossal waste of taxpayer money.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 05:00 PM   #9
BerdanSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Location: to close to other houses
Posts: 1,176
And our government started caring about that when?
BerdanSS is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 06:17 PM   #10
FALshootist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2002
Posts: 589
Remingtom may build an m4 as good as Colt. But Colt has it down. I like to see our troops get the best. With Colt I believe they do.
FALshootist is offline  
Old October 6, 2012, 07:18 PM   #11
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2012
Posts: 755
I am glad to hear about Remington's contracts. I hope they hold them to it. I have no problem with FN, Remington, Sabre Defense, Colt, HK, or any other company that makes them for the government. As long as they are built to spec, competition is a great thing. It is where improvements and innovations spawn from. I have no doubt that Remington will do a great job.
__________________
" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to
keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect
themselves against tyranny in Government.
..." - Thomas Jefferson
CharlieDeltaJuliet is offline  
Old October 7, 2012, 03:51 PM   #12
Coltman 77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,244
FALshootist:

Quote:
Remingtom may build an m4 as good as Colt. But Colt has it down. I like to see our troops get the best. With Colt I believe they do.
Well stated, Colt has done a great job since about 1963.
__________________
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated".
Ernest Hemingway

Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA
Coltman 77 is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 07:26 AM   #13
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
It needs to be a fair contest.

Underbidding a contract by "forgetting" royalties, isn't a fair contest.

There are a lot of shennanigan that often go on behind the scenes in all of these deals.

I don't blame Colt for protesting. If you lost a contract because someone underbid you by say 3% and the contract was awarded by not taking into account the 5% paid to you for the design is not a fair contest. That deal isn't actually mathematically cheaper.

Nor is submitting a bid based on modifying the delivery requirements, which is one of the things I suspect may be part of the argument. Remington is saying it isn't fair because now Colt "knows their bidding strategy".

When I used to take bids from suppliers for equipment, if a company bid a job to a modified specification and it was acceptable, I gave all companies an opportunity to bid to that modified specification. Otherwise, they were told to bid to the specifications.
__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 10:15 AM   #14
sailskidrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Posts: 726
Yeah... that would have been part of the cost proposal; Remington technically could have been disqualified.

Personally, I hope some others are invited to the table for the recompete as Colt has been gouging the DoD for years. Ideally FN would be my choice as their quality control seems to more consistent than Colt's.
__________________
SailSkiDrive
Hk USP 45 Expert, USP 40, USP 9, SIG P226, S&W M&P9, Hk 4, Makarov, Desert Eagle 40, Beretta FS92 Centurion, Kimber TLEII 1911A1, Glock 22, SIG P225, 1943 Rem Rand 1911A1, S&W mod 64, Walther PPQ, SIG P229, Browning BDA 45 (SIG P220), Hk45, SIG P230
sailskidrive is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 11:31 AM   #15
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
Quote:
Because the cost of going through the process yet again will likely be a colossal waste of taxpayer money
Great point

I'm a contractor and there are a few other things to consider .

If the contract was awarded with out the royalties included in the contract. They would still have to be paid . The taxpayers would most likely get the bill for that aswell .

I think this will really hurt Remington now as well . Now that everybody knows what and how much they bid the contract for . They will in essence now be bidding against themselves . Im sure someone will come in at there original bid price but that will include the royalties .

Thats what I'd do . Maybe even a little less then that just to get the huge contract . I then would make that up somewhere else down the line . I'm sure there will be some sort of change order for a screw , pin , detent and thats where you make up the differance .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 11:55 AM   #16
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crow Hunter
It needs to be a fair contest.

Underbidding a contract by "forgetting" royalties, isn't a fair contest.

There are a lot of shennanigan that often go on behind the scenes in all of these deals.

I don't blame Colt for protesting. If you lost a contract because someone underbid you by say 3% and the contract was awarded by not taking into account the 5% paid to you for the design is not a fair contest. That deal isn't actually mathematically cheaper.
I agree, it needs to be a fair bidding contest. Unfortunatly, the M4 contract has been plaqued by mishandling of the bid process in the past as well. Some may remember that there was a solicitation for accessories for the M4, which caused the Navy to distribute the TDP (technical data package) to other companies. As a result, its been an issue since when there is a bid for M4's.

FN, has tried to make unsolicited bids in the past, and has even gone to court over it, but lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
Quote:
Because the cost of going through the process yet again will likely be a colossal waste of taxpayer money
Great point
While I agree it is a costly process and I wish there was a way to avoid it, a completely honest and fair bid process is what I feel is the right thing to do for all the companies involved.

With the mishandlings in the past with the M4, the only way to get past them and move forward is to finally make sure this and any other bid process honest and fair.

For those who feel that going forward with an unfair bid process (according to the original posted article) is the right thing to do, care to explain why?
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 12:41 PM   #17
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
Please correct me if I'm wrong

This is what makes the hole thing unfair

Quote:
“The Army provided the amended Solicitation to vendors whose previous proposals fell within the competitive range on 21 SEP 12,
Quote:
“The number and names of the vendors are not releasable as they are competition sensitive
EDIT

Sounds like a great way to corrupt the hole bidding process to force a redue .Because they can blame it on a giant entity like the army .No one can be held responsible so we just put the hole thing out to bid again .

Not sure thats fair either .

I geuss in a democracy it really is the only fair way to do move forward .

I sure would like to know who leaked this info cus Im sure its comon knowledge that is not OK to do so . Did someone leak it on purpose cus they did not like the outcome or was it just an woopsie .

.
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; October 8, 2012 at 12:54 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 12:49 PM   #18
Mrgunsngear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,415
Nope, you're correct. I used to go to the FN plant frequently for work and I asked them about the bidding process and they mentioned exactly what you just did.
__________________
Mrgunsngear Youtube Channel
Mrgunsngear is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 12:50 PM   #19
Father Time
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2007
Posts: 637
Sorry but Freedom Group can suck it....

They just gobble up big name companies (Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster etc..) for their "name" then cut corners in QC and production without lowering the price on the product.

They are the walmart of firearms companies and I have no sympathy for them.
Father Time is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 12:53 AM   #20
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 720
Follow up.

Just thought some here would like to know... FN wins the contract.

http://kitup.military.com/2013/02/ar...ntract-fn.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by military.com
FN Manufacturing has outbid Remington Arms Company and Colt Defense LLC., to win a contract worth just under $77 million to make M4A1s for the U.S. Army, according to an industry source.
Read more: http://kitup.military.com/2013/02/ar...#ixzz2Lzec3IcW
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 01:44 AM   #21
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
as much as I did not like how this all went down . I think FN will make a better firearm then Remington .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 02:34 AM   #22
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,742
I thought the Army already had a high frequency of jams with the AR and that's why they were looking at piston drive. Low Bid isn't always best. Remingotn has had issues keeping up Marling quality. I gotta wonder how well they will fill a government contract?
rc is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 01:27 PM   #23
Mrgunsngear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,415
Quote:
I thought the Army already had a high frequency of jams with the AR and that's why they were looking at piston drive. Low Bid isn't always best. Remingotn has had issues keeping up Marling quality. I gotta wonder how well they will fill a government contract?
The M4 is a very reliable weapon---I worked on M4 ranges for 3 years and can tell you that easily 90% (probably more) of malfunctions are due to improper maintenance (user error) or bad magazines.
__________________
Mrgunsngear Youtube Channel
Mrgunsngear is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 02:38 PM   #24
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
Quote:
I thought the Army already had a high frequency of jams with the AR and that's why they were looking at piston drive.
this is complete and utter nonsense propagated by people trying to justify their purchases of $2500 piston driven rifles. SEAL teams acquiring a very small amount of HK416s was incredibly over publicized by HKs marketing dept to make their weapons more marketable, the US armed forces are not looking to replace the M16/4 any time soon and couldn't afford to do so even if they wanted.

L
Quote:
ow Bid isn't always best. Remington has had issues keeping up Marlin quality. I gotta wonder how well they will fill a government contract?
this is also a half truth based on a completely different situation. Cerberus owns Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster, as far as I know FA versions from all three makers are available to law enforcement. This company is not new to AR15s.

do I think they can make the same quality M16s as Colt? probably not for the price they are giving but from what I saw on active duty, there was nothing special about the colts we were carrying, if money was no object I think a Seekins Precision, Larue, or other top tier company would be a perfect combat rifle but money is tight and unless the military is willing to give pay cuts to it's fighting men and women(which would undoubtedly cause security problems) they will have to continue to try and find better deals on their weapons.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old March 4, 2013, 03:17 PM   #25
Destructo6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 1999
Location: Nogales, AZ USA
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
the US armed forces are not looking to replace the M16/4 any time soon and couldn't afford to do so even if they wanted.
If I am not mistaken, the USMC just adopted HK's gas piston operated AR as the, "Infantry Automatic Rifle."

I understand that it is not intended to be issued to all Marines, but that could be the beginning of a significant change.
__________________
God gave you a soul.
Your parents, a body.
Your country, a rifle.

Keep all of them clean.
Destructo6 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08960 seconds with 10 queries