ammo on airplanes

Rifleman1776 · October 28, 2011, 08:13 AM

Story in latest issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine, the publication of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association.
Man who wrote the article is the person who had, and still is having, a bad experience with TSA and ATF.
He had Pyrodex pellets in his luggage planning on going on a hunting trip. The box of pellets is labeled "DOT approved". He claimed the pellets at check in, the ATF was called and he was arrested.
Now with five felony counts against him and over $32,000.00 in legal expenses the charges may, or may not, be dropped.
Bottom line, just don't do it.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 28, 2011, 08:30 AM

I feel sorry for him, but "DOT Approved" means they can be shipped by truck. It doesn't mean they're okay to carry on an aircraft.

On the other hand, Pyrodex is not black powder, it's a black powder substitute. If we can declare and transport (as checked baggage) live ammo loaded with smokeless powder, I don't see why Pyrodex should be any different. Is Pyrodex considered an "explosive" (like black powder) or a "propellant" (like smokeless powder)?

Brian Pfleuger · October 28, 2011, 08:31 AM

Pyrodex isn't ammo.

Gun powder, black powder and percussion caps are expressly forbidden. Any one who thought Pyrodex wouldn't be included in that prohibition is a fool. Whether it be smokeless or black, it is undoubtedly "gun powder".

Small arms ammo is expressly allowed in checked baggage.

MLeake · October 28, 2011, 12:28 PM

I suspect that if the authorities feel the guy made an honest mistake, the charges will be dropped, but some or all of the fines, and all the legal fees, will stick.

That will make an example of him, as far as what not to do, without making the government look like it's overreaching.

**44 AMP** · October 28, 2011, 02:22 PM

DOT regs are not the final say. Get a copy of the relevant section of 1910.xxxx CFR and do some reading, there are many strange and odd seeming regulations. And, they change. In 2002, loaded ammo could be shipped on aircraft, but blanks could not.

IMHO, when the fellow declared the pyrodex, he should not have been arrested (assuming it was at check in in the non-secure part of the airport), he was obviously acting in good faith. However, there are TSA rules, FAA rules, airline rules, DOT rules, and probably several others I don't know about, at work here.

IN 2003, I returned from a trip with two rifles (inherited), and that was ok, but the new, unopened, still in the blister pack bottle of Hoppes No.9 I had in luggage was not.

Today? I don't know, but if you are going to fly commercial, better not take ANYTHING even remotely gun related with you. And maybe check with a lawyer, if you are.

BTW, if you fly charter, you can do damn near anything you want.
But, that costs real money.

Brian Pfleuger · October 28, 2011, 02:33 PM

People fly with firearms and ammunition in their checked bags, from hundreds of airports, into and out of every state, every day.

The regulations for those items are clear, well understood and easy to find on both the airline and TSAs websites.

There are no excuses for bringing prohibited items. At least in the case of firearms and related items, what is allowed and what is prohibited are clearly spelled out.

I swear, sometimes, people are so smart or so educated that common sense fails. On 9/11, with everything that was happening, that everyone practically in the world was aware of, the FAA had issued nationwide "No Fly" orders that everyone, everywhere knew were in place. As i was told by my Chief Instructor, the first one "expired" and there was a tiny gap before the next one was in place. 15 minutes, or 30 minutes, I don't remember for sure. Do you know that more than one pilot thought it would be fun to go up during that window? How dumb can a smart person be? They (those who got caught) lost their licenses. Are we to feel sorry for them? I think not.

Same with the guy with the Pyrodex. Common sense and basic precautions are helpful.

October 28, 2011, 08:13 AM	#1
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	ammo on airplanes Story in latest issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine, the publication of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association. Man who wrote the article is the person who had, and still is having, a bad experience with TSA and ATF. He had Pyrodex pellets in his luggage planning on going on a hunting trip. The box of pellets is labeled "DOT approved". He claimed the pellets at check in, the ATF was called and he was arrested. Now with five felony counts against him and over $32,000.00 in legal expenses the charges may, or may not, be dropped. Bottom line, just don't do it.

October 28, 2011, 02:22 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	DOT regs are not the final say. Get a copy of the relevant section of 1910.xxxx CFR and do some reading, there are many strange and odd seeming regulations. And, they change. In 2002, loaded ammo could be shipped on aircraft, but blanks could not. IMHO, when the fellow declared the pyrodex, he should not have been arrested (assuming it was at check in in the non-secure part of the airport), he was obviously acting in good faith. However, there are TSA rules, FAA rules, airline rules, DOT rules, and probably several others I don't know about, at work here. IN 2003, I returned from a trip with two rifles (inherited), and that was ok, but the new, unopened, still in the blister pack bottle of Hoppes No.9 I had in luggage was not. Today? I don't know, but if you are going to fly commercial, better not take ANYTHING even remotely gun related with you. And maybe check with a lawyer, if you are. BTW, if you fly charter, you can do damn near anything you want. But, that costs real money. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 28, 2011, 08:30 AM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	I feel sorry for him, but "DOT Approved" means they can be shipped by truck. It doesn't mean they're okay to carry on an aircraft. On the other hand, Pyrodex is not black powder, it's a black powder substitute. If we can declare and transport (as checked baggage) live ammo loaded with smokeless powder, I don't see why Pyrodex should be any different. Is Pyrodex considered an "explosive" (like black powder) or a "propellant" (like smokeless powder)?

October 28, 2011, 08:31 AM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Pyrodex isn't ammo. Gun powder, black powder and percussion caps are expressly forbidden. Any one who thought Pyrodex wouldn't be included in that prohibition is a fool. Whether it be smokeless or black, it is undoubtedly "gun powder". Small arms ammo is expressly allowed in checked baggage.

October 28, 2011, 12:28 PM	#4
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I suspect that if the authorities feel the guy made an honest mistake, the charges will be dropped, but some or all of the fines, and all the legal fees, will stick. That will make an example of him, as far as what not to do, without making the government look like it's overreaching.

October 28, 2011, 02:33 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	People fly with firearms and ammunition in their checked bags, from hundreds of airports, into and out of every state, every day. The regulations for those items are clear, well understood and easy to find on both the airline and TSAs websites. There are no excuses for bringing prohibited items. At least in the case of firearms and related items, what is allowed and what is prohibited are clearly spelled out. I swear, sometimes, people are so smart or so educated that common sense fails. On 9/11, with everything that was happening, that everyone practically in the world was aware of, the FAA had issued nationwide "No Fly" orders that everyone, everywhere knew were in place. As i was told by my Chief Instructor, the first one "expired" and there was a tiny gap before the next one was in place. 15 minutes, or 30 minutes, I don't remember for sure. Do you know that more than one pilot thought it would be fun to go up during that window? How dumb can a smart person be? They (those who got caught) lost their licenses. Are we to feel sorry for them? I think not. Same with the guy with the Pyrodex. Common sense and basic precautions are helpful.