American Whitetail--why bother?

stagpanther · October 5, 2018, 01:49 PM

Years ago I bought a basic savage 111 in 300 win mag but for the most part it sits in back of the safe collecting dust.

Come to find some spare factory ammo in one of my drawers--so I thought--why not? Nice sunny day, so I grabbed a box each of power shocks, power points and American Whitetail.

I couldn't shoot at 200 yds due to construction equipment--had to be content with 100--after putting a few rounds on paper to get zeroed--here are the first shots of the American Whitetail.

The flier on the upper left was the first shot--but the rest of the group fell into place pretty good. This is why I don't bother reloading hunting cartridges for the 300 win mag--which is not the most fun to reload to begin with.

jmr40 · October 5, 2018, 03:32 PM

I've shot a bit of it in 6.5 CM and 308. It tends to be very accurate. I can see one potential problem with it in 300 WM though. They use a soft rapidly expanding bullet with poor BC's in those loads. They work fine in non-magnum rifles at normal hunting ranges. I'd be concerned about over expansion at 300 WM speeds up close, and less than ideal performance at long range due to the BC's. Especially with the lighter bullet weights.

When impact speeds are over 2800 fps premium bullets start making sense. Or if taking shots at extreme range.

stagpanther · October 5, 2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

They use a soft rapidly expanding bullet with poor BC's in those loads

That's true--not sure how well the core is locked--I guess fairly well--hence the name interloc. I've also wondered about the mediocre BC--but I've shot this same cartridge to just under 500 yds and it was still sub-MOA--further than I'll likely ever take a shot at game.

Mobuck · October 5, 2018, 04:42 PM

" They use a soft rapidly expanding bullet with poor BC's in those loads."

Did you miss the significance of "American WHITETAIL" on the box?

Model12Win · October 5, 2018, 05:08 PM

Because they taste good!!

gw44 · October 5, 2018, 06:24 PM

The day of the so-so factory ammo is long gone !!!

stagpanther · October 5, 2018, 07:11 PM

Quote:

The day of the so-so factory ammo is long gone !!!

Not sure about that--I'm not retiring my presses any time soon--but some of the more popular cartridges made by lots of different guys--like 30 - 30--308 etc. getting tougher and tougher to spend the extra time and money on doing my own loads. Not that I mind all that much.

Troy800 · October 5, 2018, 08:58 PM

I load all my own rifle ammo. I just enjoy doing it. I like to tweak and tune and see what I can do. However with that said the longest shot I have made in over 10 years is 160 yards and that was just because I was lazy. Almost any respectable off the shelf ammo will work for what I do. But what is the fun in that. For some reason I think I need a scope that I can count hairs with and precision to surgically discect the heart.

FrankenMauser · October 5, 2018, 10:27 PM

I bought some American Whitetail as gifts for three different people (.308 Win and .270 Win, I believe). All said it performed very well, and bought more.
The minimal amount of testing that I've done so far is showing promise, as well. (I need to stop screwing around with improvised rests and improvised targets, in the wind, and see what some of it does from a bench.)

---

Troy, I absolutely agree.
I thoroughly enjoy reloading.

But... sometimes life gets in the way, and I just don't have the time, energy, or can't find the bullet that I need. I absolutely will not turn down a decent deal that saves me time.
For example: I usually max out the yearly Remington rebates on ammo, when the local shop has .30-30 170 gr RNs at $12 / box. Not the best bullet. Not the best ammo. But plenty good enough for my uses, it shoots well in my rifles, I get to keep the brass, and I get $5 back, per box, with the rebate!

And, two weeks ago, I desperately needed some ammo to help diagnose a problem with my .270 Win. I didn't want to waste any of my good handloads. So... Remington 130 gr CL was the answer (a known performer in that rifle). Though pricier than usual, $23 was worth it.

bamaranger · October 6, 2018, 03:14 AM

Modern machining and contemporary design, have combined to render some very accurate, affordable rifles. The Ruger American comes to mind. As the OP mentioned a Savage 111, Savage bolt rifles are another.

Factory ammo has come a long way too. But the stumbling point is cost. I am still shocked by the price of factory premium ammo. I can still load high quality ammo, tailored for my rifles and game, at about half the cost of factory ammo. And there's something about the fact that I made it myself.

std7mag · October 6, 2018, 05:45 AM

I don't know about "fun to reload" i do it for several reasons.
It's my quiet time when i can't get out to the woods.
The factories can't load to my rifle.
I like my "premium" bullets.

Aside from slightly more powder, not any different than reloading any other cartridge.

Ya got some cool toys there, Stag!!

eastbank · October 6, 2018, 05:46 AM

years ago I stock piled upon surplus military ammo and for my two .308 that I don,t use to much I pull the 150gr fmj bullets from Winchester GI ammo and seat 150gr sp Hornady bullets( powder charge in the GI ammo is 42 grs) and they shoot 2" or less at 100 yards, plenty good for deer. when I bought the 308 GI ammo it was 200.00 a thousand.

stagpanther · October 6, 2018, 06:54 AM

Quote:

I don't know about "fun to reload" i do it for several reasons.
It's my quiet time when i can't get out to the woods.
The factories can't load to my rifle.
I like my "premium" bullets.

Aside from slightly more powder, not any different than reloading any other cartridge.

Ya got some cool toys there, Stag!!

Thanks--I do enjoy reloading as sorta like "cooking"--I come up with different recipes and the reward is a good-performing cartridge. 300 win mag is a tricky one due to it's belted case design and it eats enormous quantities of powder--when I load a 100 or more cartridges to find the "mother lode" it gets expensive fast--a box of AW--which I've found for under 20 dollars and shoots this well--well that takes a lot of incentive away.

Brian Pfleuger · October 6, 2018, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamaranger

But the stumbling point is cost. I am still shocked by the price of factory premium ammo.

Amen, brother!

I can load my own ammo with Norma brass, CCI BR primers and Barnes TTSX bullets for about what American Whitetail costs. Better than premium, for the price of “plinking”.

stagpanther · October 6, 2018, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Amen, brother!

I can load my own ammo with Norma brass, CCI BR primers and Barnes TTSX bullets for about what American Whitetail costs. Better than premium, for the price of “plinking”.

I hand-load thousands of cartridges annually--I have a fair idea of the "costs savings." It's much more about OCD'ing on the most accurate cartridge for a particular weapon IMO. And pride when you find out. When I post groups results with the formulas I've used--quite often that may be the end result result of a 100 or more hours and dollars in development.

stagpanther · October 6, 2018, 12:08 PM

Fired some 6.5 creedmoor American Whitetail through my AR build with a 20" BHW barrel. Except for the flier (which was probably me)--this would have been a very acceptable result for a handload I worked up.

stagpanther · October 6, 2018, 03:18 PM

After tightening up the scope rings and mount for my ruger predator in 270--things got a lot better--but I only had a few American whitetail cartridges so I was forced to make do with the remmie core-lokts. My opinion of remmie's ammo in general isn't very good--I've had quite a few failures with the factory ammo and have found wide variations in their loaded ammo. Their bullets, though, which I do buy separately and reload, are quite good.

That said--here's what my rifle turned in--looks a lot like the creedmoor group--right down to the pulled flier.

stagpanther · October 7, 2018, 12:37 PM

I know the admin is probably looking at this thread and thinking--hmmm--time to move this to either the semi-auto or reloading forum threads; didn't mean to stray off a bit but I think it's still relevant to most rifle types.

stagpanther · October 7, 2018, 12:41 PM

I literally haven't shot any factory loads through my creedmoor build in over a year--it's been all handloads until I decided to try the AW yesterday--and was pleasantly surprised. I also found some federal "nontypical" in the back of a storage drawer; so I took it out today. Conditions aren't the best--shooting into a crossing headwind gusting to over 20 mph. I never shot the nontypical ammo because the noses are finished rather poorly (at least on the stuff I bought), looks like a lead plug is forced down into the hollow point, which creates a bit of flash hanging around the sides.

Here are 5 shots at 100 yds--there's actually three impacts in the group touching the bull's. The two fliers I called when the hammer broke (I usually call %*&^ which you can hear pretty far off). I think the group would have been well under MOA had the guy behind the trigger been able to keep his stuff together.

FrankenMauser · October 7, 2018, 02:13 PM

I sometimes wish Hornady would load some 6x45mm with a bespoke 90 gr or 95 gr interlock. (Hell, even a GMX might be acceptable.)
I love the cartridge, but it's a pain to find suitable bullets to work in it (at least with AR mag length limitations).
And, based on the way that their ammo typically performs for me, it would just work.

Plus... I run Hornady and PPU brass for the 6x45mm, to make it easier to distinguish between .223/5.56 and 6x45mm when sorting. So, the brass would fit right in.

stagpanther · October 7, 2018, 02:19 PM

Quote:

I sometimes wish Hornady would load some 6x45mm with a bespoke 90 gr or 95 gr interlock. (Hell, even a GMX might be acceptable.)
I love the cartridge, but it's a pain to find suitable bullets to work in it (at least with AR mag length limitations).
And, based on the way that their ammo typically performs for me, it would just work.

Plus... I run Hornady and PPU brass for the 6x45mm, to make it easier to distinguish between .223/5.56 and 6x45mm when sorting. So, the brass would fit right in.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

Have you tried loading their interlock? I have--but have yet to equal their whitetail ammo. They get very impressive velocities too.

FrankenMauser · October 8, 2018, 03:07 AM

None of the Interlocks will work with 6x45mm - at least with the COAL limitation I'm dealing with.

The 87s are "okay", but still have the ogive below the case mouth. Nothing else comes close to acceptable.

Interlocks and reloading in general....
Nope. I haven't been able to do as well as their factory stuff, either.

stagpanther · October 8, 2018, 04:22 AM

Quote:

None of the Interlocks will work with 6x45mm - at least with the COAL limitation I'm dealing with.

The 87s are "okay", but still have the ogive below the case mouth. Nothing else comes close to acceptable.

Ah--I see, I run into similar problems with my 284 win sometimes, I usually end up seating the base of ogive into the neck a bit.

dvdcrr · October 8, 2018, 07:15 PM

"Factory ammo has come a long way too. But the stumbling point is cost. I am still shocked by the price of factory premium ammo. I can still load high quality ammo, tailored for my rifles and game, at about half the cost of factory ammo. And there's something about the fact that I made it myself."

That and the fact that if you load your own, you KNOW what that round is going to do when you touch it off. If you didn't put the powder in yourself, you technically don't know.

bamaranger · October 9, 2018, 12:03 PM

I'd have to say that I shoot VERY little factory ammo these days.

When I was working of course, there was issue ammo at quals and training. And I still carry factory ammo in my SD handguns,and if I'm blasting with the AK, I shoot steel case import.

But ALL my hunting ammo is reloaded. All of the 9mm ammo I shoot at the occassional IDPA match I shoot is reloaded. I likely wouldn't be into 10mm like I am, if I didn't load. And I'm loading most of my AR ammo these days too.

I go to the range, and the amount of brass on the ground is oft times staggering. I don't see how people do it.

October 5, 2018, 03:32 PM	#2
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	I've shot a bit of it in 6.5 CM and 308. It tends to be very accurate. I can see one potential problem with it in 300 WM though. They use a soft rapidly expanding bullet with poor BC's in those loads. They work fine in non-magnum rifles at normal hunting ranges. I'd be concerned about over expansion at 300 WM speeds up close, and less than ideal performance at long range due to the BC's. Especially with the lighter bullet weights. When impact speeds are over 2800 fps premium bullets start making sense. Or if taking shots at extreme range. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

October 5, 2018, 10:27 PM	#9
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I bought some American Whitetail as gifts for three different people (.308 Win and .270 Win, I believe). All said it performed very well, and bought more. The minimal amount of testing that I've done so far is showing promise, as well. (I need to stop screwing around with improvised rests and improvised targets, in the wind, and see what some of it does from a bench.) --- Troy, I absolutely agree. I thoroughly enjoy reloading. But... sometimes life gets in the way, and I just don't have the time, energy, or can't find the bullet that I need. I absolutely will not turn down a decent deal that saves me time. For example: I usually max out the yearly Remington rebates on ammo, when the local shop has .30-30 170 gr RNs at $12 / box. Not the best bullet. Not the best ammo. But plenty good enough for my uses, it shoots well in my rifles, I get to keep the brass, and I get $5 back, per box, with the rebate! And, two weeks ago, I desperately needed some ammo to help diagnose a problem with my .270 Win. I didn't want to waste any of my good handloads. So... Remington 130 gr CL was the answer (a known performer in that rifle). Though pricier than usual, $23 was worth it. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 6, 2018, 03:14 AM	#10
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	factory ammo and modern rifles Modern machining and contemporary design, have combined to render some very accurate, affordable rifles. The Ruger American comes to mind. As the OP mentioned a Savage 111, Savage bolt rifles are another. Factory ammo has come a long way too. But the stumbling point is cost. I am still shocked by the price of factory premium ammo. I can still load high quality ammo, tailored for my rifles and game, at about half the cost of factory ammo. And there's something about the fact that I made it myself.

October 6, 2018, 05:45 AM	#11
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I don't know about "fun to reload" i do it for several reasons. It's my quiet time when i can't get out to the woods. The factories can't load to my rifle. I like my "premium" bullets. Aside from slightly more powder, not any different than reloading any other cartridge. Ya got some cool toys there, Stag!! __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

October 7, 2018, 12:37 PM	#18
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,773	I know the admin is probably looking at this thread and thinking--hmmm--time to move this to either the semi-auto or reloading forum threads; didn't mean to stray off a bit but I think it's still relevant to most rifle types. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

October 5, 2018, 04:42 PM	#4
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	" They use a soft rapidly expanding bullet with poor BC's in those loads." Did you miss the significance of "American WHITETAIL" on the box?

October 5, 2018, 05:08 PM	#5
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Because they taste good!!

October 5, 2018, 06:24 PM	#6
gw44 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 311	The day of the so-so factory ammo is long gone !!!

October 5, 2018, 08:58 PM	#8
Troy800 Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2015 Posts: 118	I load all my own rifle ammo. I just enjoy doing it. I like to tweak and tune and see what I can do. However with that said the longest shot I have made in over 10 years is 160 yards and that was just because I was lazy. Almost any respectable off the shelf ammo will work for what I do. But what is the fun in that. For some reason I think I need a scope that I can count hairs with and precision to surgically discect the heart.

October 6, 2018, 05:46 AM	#12
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	years ago I stock piled upon surplus military ammo and for my two .308 that I don,t use to much I pull the 150gr fmj bullets from Winchester GI ammo and seat 150gr sp Hornady bullets( powder charge in the GI ammo is 42 grs) and they shoot 2" or less at 100 yards, plenty good for deer. when I bought the 308 GI ammo it was 200.00 a thousand.

October 7, 2018, 02:13 PM	#20
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I sometimes wish Hornady would load some 6x45mm with a bespoke 90 gr or 95 gr interlock. (Hell, even a GMX might be acceptable.) I love the cartridge, but it's a pain to find suitable bullets to work in it (at least with AR mag length limitations). And, based on the way that their ammo typically performs for me, it would just work. Plus... I run Hornady and PPU brass for the 6x45mm, to make it easier to distinguish between .223/5.56 and 6x45mm when sorting. So, the brass would fit right in. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 8, 2018, 03:07 AM	#22
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	None of the Interlocks will work with 6x45mm - at least with the COAL limitation I'm dealing with. The 87s are "okay", but still have the ogive below the case mouth. Nothing else comes close to acceptable. Interlocks and reloading in general.... Nope. I haven't been able to do as well as their factory stuff, either. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 8, 2018, 07:15 PM	#24
dvdcrr Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2010 Posts: 665	"Factory ammo has come a long way too. But the stumbling point is cost. I am still shocked by the price of factory premium ammo. I can still load high quality ammo, tailored for my rifles and game, at about half the cost of factory ammo. And there's something about the fact that I made it myself." That and the fact that if you load your own, you KNOW what that round is going to do when you touch it off. If you didn't put the powder in yourself, you technically don't know. __________________ "All warfare is based on deception. Hence when we are able to attack we must seem unable....when using our forces we must appear inactive. When we are near we must make the enemy believe we are far away."Sun Tzu The Art of War.

October 9, 2018, 12:03 PM	#25
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	ammo I'd have to say that I shoot VERY little factory ammo these days. When I was working of course, there was issue ammo at quals and training. And I still carry factory ammo in my SD handguns,and if I'm blasting with the AK, I shoot steel case import. But ALL my hunting ammo is reloaded. All of the 9mm ammo I shoot at the occassional IDPA match I shoot is reloaded. I likely wouldn't be into 10mm like I am, if I didn't load. And I'm loading most of my AR ammo these days too. I go to the range, and the amount of brass on the ground is oft times staggering. I don't see how people do it.