Am I missing any options here for new ccw?

[Blade37db]

I'm in the market too after deciding that the 365 isn't "it".
I experienced issues at about the 200 round mark (misfeeds, failure to eject completely). It went back to Sig and they had it back to me in 2 weeks and they had replaced a few parts.
In the 200 rounds since, the problem has happened far less frequently (2 or 3 times) but it has placed enough doubt in my mind that I'll probably trade it in.
The leaders in the clubhouse to check out as replacements:
Walther PPQ SC
S&W M&P 2.0 SC (no safety model)
Ruger Security 9 Compact Pro (no safety model)

The S&W and the Ruger have models with safeties. The Shield is a really good gun. Had one and can say nothing bad about it.

[labnoti]

I still contend that ND's during holstering are not as critical of an issue compared to unintended discharges in crisis scenarios. I don't want to minimize the need for training and practice of good discipline and procedures to avoid ND's during routine activity, but the only reason these types of ND's are prevalent is because "routine activity" happens all the time. The incidence of these ND's over the relevant time period is low enough that millions of people get away with almost completely ignoring the risk.

The incidence of unintentional discharges during crisis situations is probably shockingly high. We know it happens because of startle response, sympathetic graps reflex, contralateral contraction, trigger affirmation, and because the "finger outside the trigger guard" is an un-natural and unintuitive contortion to maintain during a period of time when a person is probably experiencing sensory overload. It may happen for even more reasons we have yet to understand.

If a person does not frequently encounter events involving the use or threat of lethal force, they probably have little idea of how they will actually perform under those conditions. What will happen to their trigger discipline?

[USNRet93]

I'm in the market too after deciding that the 365 isn't "it".
I experienced issues at about the 200 round mark (misfeeds, failure to eject completely). It went back to Sig and they had it back to me in 2 weeks and they had replaced a few parts.
In the 200 rounds since, the problem has happened far less frequently (2 or 3 times) but it has placed enough doubt in my mind that I'll probably trade it in.

but, but, but, sig says.........

oh never mind->

[Blade37db]

I know. I really want to feel differently about it as it fits my small hand pretty well and shoots great when it is working. It's also really nice to carry IWB.

I guess I could pick up another one and hope for an improvement and relegate the one I have to backup/range duty after I vet the new one. We'll see

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by adamBomb

My conditions are that is must have an external safety, have at least 8 rounds (more = better) and be no bigger than the shield ez, which I think is my max for IWB.

EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness Polymer Compact:


https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.p...+Compact&type=

It might be a bit bigger than you Shield EZ. I manage to carry it AIWB. In addition, factory kits are available to change from one caliber to another (say to convert pistol from 9mm to .45 ACP or 10mm).

[Spats McGee]

For those who want to continue to argue over whether thumb safeties are necessary, dangerous, ND incident rates, etc., the OP has already said

Originally Posted by adamBomb

This is moving the thread off topic.

I require it. I know the advantages and disadvantages. I like them on any guns that I carry....

Thus, let's move on from that.

adamBomb, if you're still considering the Shield EZ 9mm, you should probably be aware of this thread: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=605064 It appears that magazine availability is questionable. That alone would be enough to deter me, given number of competitors out there for which magazines are readily available.

[labnoti]

It's not just about thumb safeties. The EZ is a single-action gun. Does having a thumb safety make it safe after you disengage it? There are DA guns that have thumb safeties. If ND's are a concern and hence the cause for the thumb safety, wouldn't a DA with a thumb safety make more sense? Why have this thing if you're only going to disable it at the most critical moment and be left with a gun that is most prone to unintentional discharges?

Just how vulnerable the EZ's SA is to discharges, I don't know. I can see from video that it's not as short, crisp and light as a 1911-style (or a P238), but it is still a single-action.

The EZ 9 magazine issue is temporary.

[Old 454]

Check out a CZ Rami or if you like polymer the CZ P-10S.
CZ makes great guns... very reliable and accurate out of the box

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by labnoti

It's not just about thumb safeties. The EZ is a single-action gun. Does having a thumb safety make it safe after you disengage it? There are DA guns that have thumb safeties. If ND's are a concern and hence the cause for the thumb safety, wouldn't a DA with a thumb safety make more sense? Why have this thing if you're only going to disable it at the most critical moment and be left with a gun that is most prone to unintentional discharges?

Just how vulnerable the EZ's SA is to discharges, I don't know. I can see from video that it's not as short, crisp and light as a 1911-style (or a P238), but it is still a single-action.

The EZ 9 magazine issue is temporary.

The majority of firearms sold today don't have DA pulls or thumb safeties, and even fewer have both. In owning dozens of pistols I'm not convinced that the presence of both are required for safety. In addition, in training at a facility that has thousands of shooters rotate through in a year the cases of negligent discharges there that result in injury (which is usually 1 or so every few years despite the presence of instructors that constantly emphasize safety, a mandatory group safety brief that is completed as a class, etc.) remain people doing so while holstering. Even having seen a dozen or so people rotate through 8 hrs of force on force where I can assure you they were stressed and had discharged firearms leaving the firearms in a cocked state with no safety on, they managed to avoid having a ND. Obviously there are articles we can find of officers having NDs in just the situations you mention, so obviously it does happen. Personally I don't think it happens to the point where both a DA pull and safety are required. Moreso, if it does happen if often does when the officer already has the pistol in a ready to fire state, meaning the safety is likely disengaged (and if the pistol has discharged already then the hammer will be back too).

Having personally had a ND with a pistol that had both a DA pull and a safety I can say that neither of these mechanical devices can compensate for people making mistakes. Around me locally talking to officers from multiple departments one of the largest sources of NDs in the home is people cleaning firearms and not clearing them first. This happens with an unfortunate amount of regularity.

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[Elliottsdad]

I carry a Shield, have for a couple years, and I'd honestly say there are better options out there. Its okay, not great. The trigger on the Shield 1.0 is "meh"; the grip texture on the 2.0 is way too rough for IWB (at least for me), though it does have a better trigger.
The Shield 1.0 price is good though.
If I had expendable income, I might upgrade to a Glock 48 (big gun, longer bbl, but very slim, 10 rounds), or a Sig 365 (though it does have some spotty reviews).
What I really want is a 3" SP101 in .327 Fed Mag, though I'm not sold on its practicality. I digress, semiauto forum.
Whatever you choose, I really recommend no manual safety. It is "security theater," and under stress could get you killed. Keep your finger off the trigger.

[labnoti]

The majority of pistols sold are intended to flatter the marksmanship of people that will never be in a lethal force encounter.

Even so, I am not specifically recommending a DA with a manual safety. I only mentioned that they exist as an alternative to a single-action. I agree with you that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes, but single-actions may be tempting fate. DA/SA guns will also have single-action once they're initially discharged as you mentioned, but there are also DA-only guns. The most popular actions today are striker-fired guns with partially pre-cocked strikers and that is the alternative that the OP listed as considered besides the SA. Is that enough to make a difference? Again, I agree that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes -- but if a manual safety is regarded as essential to the OP, the risk the safety addresses should be looked at thoroughly -- because of this fact that "safety" is not just a "checkbox." I will also assert that "training" is not the rest of the answer. As you have witnessed, even trained people surrounded by vigilant instructors still make mistakes. We can only expect it would be worse without training and vigilance. I don't mean to become fatalistic about ND's. At the end of the day, all I can say is if ND's are a concern, hence the manual safety, watch out for single-action triggers too.

[TBM900]

Out of everything mentioned I would go for the 380EZ.
It has fast become my EDC-CCW for most occasions as I've found it to be the "Goldilocks" of such SA pistols.
Sized for a proper "man sized" grip, but still thin and dimensionally small enough to easily conceal well.
Zero failures so far in all of mine thus far, 8 round capacity, nice SA trigger, light weight, shoots like about like a 22lr.
I usually run PPU FMJ and am perfectly confident with it.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

The majority of firearms sold today don't have DA pulls

Going to have to disagree with you on that one.
As far as I can tell, the largest group of handguns sold today are striker-fired semi-autos.
Which do in fact have double-action triggers, they may be pre-set short and light pulls, but they are double-action.

[adamBomb]

watch out for single-action triggers too.

We have moved away from long trigger pulls, which I don't think is a good thing. My home protection gun is a Beretta 92 and I love it. DA and a safety. I was using a revolver until one night I woke up to a loud noise and was getting it out of the holster half asleep and realized my 1/2 asleep state was probably more dangerous than the noise. While I didn't have an ND or anything that night I knew the DA wasn't enough in that type of situation for me so I went with the beretta.

I have kids so god forbid they ever get their hands on a gun, wrestle me while I am carrying, etc. that safety is a big deal for me. Its one of the reasons I love my current mp bodyguard. Its DA, hammer fired, and has a safety. I think its great as a CCW gun. The issue I have with it is that while its great for a close encounter, its not going to do much good in any other situation.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Going to have to disagree with you on that one.

As far as I can tell, the largest group of handguns sold today are striker-fired semi-autos.

Which do in fact have double-action triggers, they may be pre-set short and light pulls, but they are double-action.

They may refer to themselves as DA but the majority aren't from my point of view (I'm Obi Wan Kenobi). They aren't in weight and length of travel and they also aren't in function in that most striker fired pistols don't sit with the strikers fully at rest. Most are partially cocked with some practically fully cocked and the trigger serves to mostly rotate the sear and release the striker. Absent the Walther series and Canik series not many striker fired pistols are actually capable of "double strike" capability in that if a striker fails to ignite a cartridge the slide must by manually cycled as the trigger alone is not capable of cocking the striker. That to me is double action.

I number of years ago we had a many page thread about this and the true definition of double action etc. I stand with my description above. In that context the striker fired pistols sold today are, for the most part, not true double action.

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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by adamBomb

We have moved away from long trigger pulls, which I don't think is a good thing. My home protection gun is a Beretta 92 and I love it. DA and a safety. I was using a revolver until one night I woke up to a loud noise and was getting it out of the holster half asleep and realized my 1/2 asleep state was probably more dangerous than the noise. While I didn't have an ND or anything that night I knew the DA wasn't enough in that type of situation for me so I went with the beretta.



I have kids so god forbid they ever get their hands on a gun, wrestle me while I am carrying, etc. that safety is a big deal for me. Its one of the reasons I love my current mp bodyguard. Its DA, hammer fired, and has a safety. I think its great as a CCW gun. The issue I have with it is that while its great for a close encounter, its not going to do much good in any other situation.

My son right now is a toddler. He has figured out how to turn on the television, dial the phone (he called 911 which was fun), the list goes on. While I might buy that it would give you a little time, a DA pull or a manual safety is in no way a means to prevent a child from having an unintended discharge and no replacement for a gun cabinet, quick assess safe, true safe, etc. This isn't aided by the fact that pistol safeties aren't meant to be puzzle pieces. They're meant to be at least mildly intuitive.

As for the DA pull, I knew a man years ago who claimed to work for S&W when they were considering putting in the key locks in revolvers. The prevailing wisdom at the time was a child couldn't operate the DA trigger. They did a test with a number of children and an inert revolver to see if they could. The result? The kids used two hands, without prodding from anyone. Kids are smart.

At the end of the day how a person raises his child is his business. I just get very leery when I hear of people thinking a DA pull or manual safety can stop a child. I too wrestle with my son. When I do the firearm comes off and goes in a secure location. At least a holster by itself should have some level of retention that should prevent a firearm from just falling out, even if just friction.

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[TBM900]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

They may refer to themselves as DA but the majority aren't. They aren't in weight and length of travel and they also aren't in function in that most striker fired pistols don't sit with the strikers fully at rest. Most are partially cocked with some practically fully cocked and the trigger serves to mostly rotate the sear and release the striker. Absent the Walther series and Canik series not many striker fired pistols are actually capable of "double strike" capability in that if a striker fails to ignite a cartridge the slide must by manually cycled as the trigger alone is not capable of cocking the striker. That to me is double action.

I number of years ago we had a many page thread about this and the true definition of double action etc. I stand with my description above. In that context the striker fired pistols sold today are, for the most part, not true double action.

There is no specification in the definition as to "length of travel", "pull weight", "partially cocked", "double strike", etc.
If the trigger is being used to cock the hammer/striker and release it... it is by very definition (not wiki or forum debate) "double action".

I stand by the actual definition, not opinion

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by TBM900

There is no specification in the definition as to "length of travel", "pull weight", "partially cocked", etc. If the trigger is being used to cock the hammer/striker and release it... it is by very definition (not wiki or forum debate) "double action".



I stand by the actual definition, not opinion

You do you.

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[osbornk]

My most recent purchase and best buy I have found was a SCCY CPX-2 that I found on sale with a rebate with a total cost to me after rebate of under $150 and it has a lifetime warranty. It is hammer fired with a double action trigger. Buds has them for under $200 all the time. It weighs 15 ounces unloaded.https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.p...guns/manu/1187

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I have been listening to the Trigger wars for years on gun forums. Really do no care what someone else carries. Some like the lightest, trigger on a gun and breaks like glass. Fine, no problem with me.
I have owned all of them. Now just all DAO. Micro's for me are the Kahr and Beretta Nano/Carry Striker fired DAO. Some folks hate them, some love them. Not into high round count either and of course that bothers a lot of folks.

Shoot as many guns as you can. Take your time, Be patient in your selection. Over the years the internet has come up with all kinds of Slogans etc. "The Best Safety is the one in your head" is very popular for folks that like no safety and light triggers. For me, it means that I use my head and mind to find what is best for me and what I personally believe in. I use my experience etc. to form that choice.

Use your head and and be very careful in your selection. You cannot take back a bullet.

[adamBomb]

While I might buy that it would give you a little time

I agree, I think this is all it buys. Any kid can definitely figure it out in a second. Safes and education are a must in my house. We practice gun safety with a bb gun. I hope my lessons work - they worked for me! Back then my dad left his guns out but I knew never to go near them...but I still ask myself what the heck was he thinking!

[wild cat mccane]

The majority are DA.

The PPQ is a true single action trigger (100% ready to fire). The Glock is not (67% cocked).

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

The majority are DA.



The PPQ is a true single action trigger (100% ready to fire). The Glock is not (67% cocked).

The P320 is also, to my knowledge, true single action.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...tion-only-dao/

I believe the VP9 is as well but I am not familiar enough with the design to confirm or deny that.

By the true definition of DAO, yes a Glock and even an M&P does finish the cocking of the striker with the trigger pull. As someone that learned on double action revolvers and then DA/SA pistols I recognize the difference between a double action firearm that is capable of fully cocking itself by the trigger mechanism alone and one that requires movement of the slide to do so. If the argument is that all that matters is that some cocking is performed, fair enough, but using the term "DA" (which is the term my original comment responded to) does not, to me, directly indicate that person is thinking of double action only (DAO) rather than say a hammer fired DA/SA or even a Walther P99 or Canik clone. There is a mechanical difference in how these firearms function and to me the nuance matters.

If the response is, "You're just wrong, accept it and sit down", that's okay. Arguing ad nauseum over the semantics of this is something I've done before and I really don't want to do again. Moreso I don't think it matters for the OP's question when it comes to the use of a manual safety.

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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by labnoti

The majority of pistols sold are intended to flatter the marksmanship of people that will never be in a lethal force encounter.



Even so, I am not specifically recommending a DA with a manual safety. I only mentioned that they exist as an alternative to a single-action. I agree with you that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes, but single-actions may be tempting fate. DA/SA guns will also have single-action once they're initially discharged as you mentioned, but there are also DA-only guns. The most popular actions today are striker-fired guns with partially pre-cocked strikers and that is the alternative that the OP listed as considered besides the SA. Is that enough to make a difference? Again, I agree that equipment cannot always compensate for people making mistakes -- but if a manual safety is regarded as essential to the OP, the risk the safety addresses should be looked at thoroughly -- because of this fact that "safety" is not just a "checkbox." I will also assert that "training" is not the rest of the answer. As you have witnessed, even trained people surrounded by vigilant instructors still make mistakes. We can only expect it would be worse without training and vigilance. I don't mean to become fatalistic about ND's. At the end of the day, all I can say is if ND's are a concern, hence the manual safety, watch out for single-action triggers too.

I want to touch on the first point. It's not just about flattering someone's ego. Being able to make hits is important. Now I am NOT saying making hits with a 12 lb. double action is impossible. What I am saying is that, for many people, it is harder than shooting say a 5.5 lb. trigger on a Glock, M&P, etc. While I certainly see the argument that NDs are a pressing concern, if a trigger is so difficult that in shooting it a person is more likely to miss than hit then you create an additional danger. Where is that missed shot going? You can't be so focused on the danger associated with a possible ND that you hinder the shooter in actually making hits.

Now what then is the ideal trigger weight in terms of safety? Idk. It would seem that the market has settled on anything from 5 lb. to 7.5 lb. on striker fired pistols, with some lighter than that. We've already covered that some striker fired pistols are single action despite outward appearance and similarity to other pistols. If the single action in question, whether an EZ or other pistol, results in the same trigger weight and travel as say a DAO pistol, does it matter then that the pistol is single action? From a drop safety perspective maybe, but if the focus is on what the shooter experiences doesn't the mechanism become sort of an abstraction?

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[Pistoler0]

Hi, since kids and safety have been mentioned in relation to a reason for having a gun with a heavier trigger pull, I'd like to make two points:

1st: for those of us with toddlers in the house, these bed side safes (v-line or Fort Knox) are a great option:


No batteries, so no way to get locked out of the safe.

2nd: And for people who want to have their gun more accessible in the house, this is one situation (gun for home protection, in a house with a kids, when the gun is NOT in a safe) where it could be a good idea NOT TO HAVE A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. There is no way that a toddler could rack a slide, whereas on the other hand it would be very easy for a toddler to flip a safety off and to pull the trigger.

I don't believe in carrying empty chamber, but for a gun in a house with little ones, I think that it could be an option.