Distance shooting is a necessary task to sharpen.

[jar]

One point not discussed is simply to know what YOU are capable of. Yes, practice distance shooting BUT learn from that experience. If you cannot be confident of making a shot at 25 yards then don't try a shot at 25 yards. Understand your limitations and be honest about just what those limitation really are.

[FireForged]

A learning moment for us all here. I've stated and had a thread go off the rails the way so many do because of people who refuse to leave their bubble.

25+ yard shootings do happen and when you lease expect it, you're elected. I don't care about the regurgitated stats of 3 rouhnds per fight or "bad breath distance" only. A citizen can and have found themselves at the feet and will of an active shooter. Aside from me having worked security at religious events for Catholic, Christian, and Jewish people alike, this is something we often discussed.

https://concealednation.org/2019/12/...g/?jwsource=cl

This was a distance shot and several churchgoers and from my understanding security detail moved in on the would be mass shooter.

It's the same distance as any grocery store or mall.

I wish I could turn off the comments and just share this, but that's not the perfect world we live in. Alas contrarians, gather around and poke the holes as to why distance shooting shouldn't matter because of statistics.


Adding:

There’s a few more things to take away from this.

1- you need to be training and practicing outside of 5 yards. You might have to take a shot 25+ yards out.
2- you need to be able to get your gun out of your holster quick and put rounds on target fast.
3- carry medical!
4- have a plan. All but maybe 10 people got up and moved! Know your exits.
5- you are at 100% of your own emergencies. Prepare for it.

Firstly.. this was not a "distance shot". Judging from the number of pews it looks to be about 36-46 feet. So we are talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-16 yards.

Lets just use a distance beyond 25 yards just for this limited discussion. There is no need to throw conventional wisdom out the window simply because a small number of encounters fall outside 25yards. There are plenty of good reasons that 25 yards has been a reasonable standard for defensive shooting for a very long time. None of which are overcome by the occasional "distance" shot taken by a lawful defender.

Secondly.. a person with reasonable skill to 25yards can easily shoot beyond that threshold so long as his/her eye site is normal. Competence at 25 yards does not mean you cannot make a similar shot at 35 yards. You are talking about very marginal differences in POI between 25 yards and 35-40 yards.

To day that "distance" shooting [IS] a necessary skill to sharpen is probably incorrect. Historical evidence seems to stand in the face of that proclamation. I don't count on all criminals to adhere to statistical norms and neither do the people who helped develop common combat shooting standards. The truth is that "distance" shooting may be a skill that you need and it "could possibly" be a crucial skill in "some" circumstances. The bottom line is that the time and effort afforded toward training defenders, police, soldiers and other protectors- is not boundless. If we accept that it is far from boundless, then we should probably accept that someone much curtail the training into a reasonable module. That reasonable module ( no matter where you see it) will likely adhere to the 25-33 yard limit. Honestly, I see no practical reason to train with a pistol beyond 25 yards. There is certainly isn't much of an appreciable difference between 25 yards and 33 yard shooting.

The skill that would probably make the most difference is detecting the developing danger much earlier. I tip my hat to the fellow who ultimately took down the bad-guy but I find it odd that alarm bells were not ringing much earlier. Security is one thing and to a large degree it is often re-active to bad deeds already happening. Protection is something else and protection is largely proactive toward detecting dangerous elements early, confronting them early and as far away from the "protected" as possible. That is what would have likely made a substantial difference here. Protective methodology is much different that your basic "security" methodology. I think Church security teams should operate with more of a protection mindset and not simply a security mindset. I do not mean to be overly critical of these good men but based on his dress, manner and odd behavior.. this guy should have been ALL OVER their radar. Perhaps he was on their radar but based on the extended video from youtube, it doesn't appear to be the case.

[shurshot]

Monday morning quarterbacking? Ok, I have nothing but praise and respect for how well these men handled the threat. SIX seconds... over.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by shurshot

Monday morning quarterbacking? Ok, I have nothing but praise and respect for how well these men handled the threat. SIX seconds... over.

I haven't read anything here that seems critical of what these men did.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[FireForged]

Monday morning quarterbacking? Ok, I have nothing but praise and respect for how well these men handled the threat. SIX seconds... over.

Yes... Monday morning quarterbacking is exactly what fosters improved methods, awareness and training curriculums. Many critical incident reviews are all about Monday morning quarterbacking.

[Sharkbite]

A 15 yard HEAD shot is harder then a 25yard thoracic cavity shot.

This dude had the skill needed at the critical moment. That only happens with practice.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The man who stopped the attack is a firearms owner who owned a local shooting range from 1995-2016, so he may have had a bit of practice.

[Aguila Blanca]

One Youtube expert criticized the armed good guy for taking so long to get off his shot. I just watched an interview with him. He was VERY aware of what was going on, he didn't get into tunnel vision. He said that, after the first shot, people between him and the gunman jumped up so he had to wait for clear shot in order to be sure he wasn't going to hit one of the parishioners.

The man was definitely on top of his game, and I choose to think that he had an angelic hand or three on his shoulder at that moment.

In passing, both this good guy and the good guy who took out the Sutherland Springs, Texas, church shooter were firearms instructors. The anti-gun forces prefer to ignore that. I suppose it's probably just a coincidence.

[FireForged]

One Youtube expert criticized the armed good guy for taking so long to get off his shot. I just watched an interview with him. He was VERY aware of what was going on, he didn't get into tunnel vision. He said that, after the first shot, people between him and the gunman jumped up so he had to wait for clear shot in order to be sure he wasn't going to hit one of the parishioners.

I agree with you.. I have no real criticism of the man once he flipped his go switch. I don't know what youtuber you are speaking of but ( in general) plenty of people tend to think that real life is going to be like a static stage target where you simply fire with complete impunity and at your leisure. They do not really consider the chaos and happenstance of the moment OR real physiological stress responses.

My only criticism relates to proactive efforts to detect and challenge danger early.

[JohnKSa]

Monday morning quarterbacking? Ok, I have nothing but praise and respect for how well these men handled the threat. SIX seconds... over.

The nature of T&T means that it will occasionally involve discussions of real-world shootings to learn from them. To observe what went right, what went wrong, what could have gone worse, and what could have gone better. And why all of those things are true.

T&T requires that participants feel free to make both positive and negative assessments (both as appropriate, of course) of real-world scenarios to fully serve its purpose.

I just watched an interview with him. He was VERY aware of what was going on, he didn't get into tunnel vision. He said that, after the first shot, people between him and the gunman jumped up so he had to wait for clear shot in order to be sure he wasn't going to hit one of the parishioners.

I have watched the video over and over and I don't see anyone in his line of fire. Of course the camera has a different perspective than he does.

[American Man]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The nature of T&T means that it will occasionally involve discussions of real-world shootings to learn from them. To observe what went right, what went wrong, what could have gone worse, and what could have gone better. And why all of those things are true.

T&T requires that participants feel free to make both positive and negative assessments (both as appropriate, of course) of real-world scenarios to fully serve its purpose.

I have watched the video over and over and I don't see anyone in his line of fire. Of course the camera has a different perspective than he does.

I don't see the hesitation from when he drew and fired. But I know one thing, personal accounts are not always 100% correct. He could remember things differently today and might remember it a different way later on. He may have observed everyone's initial panic in the periphery while still focusing on the task at hand, and then explains it how he perceived it. Till this day I wonder how some people didn't see what I saw and how I didn't see what some others were talking about... and I am like, "are you serious?" So it's not surprising his account doesn't match up with the video evidence to a T.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you cannot be confident of making a shot at 25 yards then don't try a shot at 25 yards. Understand your limitations and be honest about just what those limitation really are.

While I think we must always be aware that we are responsible for every shot we fire, we also have to balance that with the risk. This is the same conversation I have with people concerned about overpenetration. What is more dangerous? A guy running around with a shotgun and a demonstrated intent to murder people or you not trying a shot you don’t have 100% confidence in?

As the sage once said, “A man’s got to know his limitations” and I strongly encourage people to become aware of those in training. At the same time, every fifth of a second you wait for the shot you are confident in may mean one more family ripped apart - and if you rush your ability you may be the one responsible for it. There isn’t any easy answer here. But we do need to consider that our personal need to eliminate error may cause more suffering.

[7.62 man]

For hunting I always practise at twice the distance that I think I will encounter prey.
So if my longest shot in the woods is 50 yds I practice out to 100 yds so I'm totally confident taking that 50yd shot.
Defensive shooting is about the same thing most shootings are at 20' or less, so if you can confidently shoot out to 40' taking a 20' shot should be no problem.

[JohnKSa]

I don't see the hesitation from when he drew and fired. But I know one thing, personal accounts are not always 100% correct.

I couldn't see it until I found a high-quality version of the video that was zoomed to show only the portion of interest on the video frame. You can see the video on John Correia's ASP channel.

He places his hand on his gun when the shooter pulls out his firearm and then he maintains that position for about 3 seconds until the shooter fires the first shot, killing Mr. White. At the shot, he begins to actually draw the gun and fires approximately 2 seconds later killing the shooter.

It's hard to know what his perception was at the time of the shooting--and as I mentioned above, the camera's perspective is somewhat different from his. He can only report what he remembers, just as I can only assess what I see in the video.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Going back to an earlier point, I don’t think most people have an appreciation for how hard it is to make the leap from “This is the day I expected to see” to “This is the day that is happening.”

I’ve had the mixed blessing now of reviewing evidence in several mass shootings. The most common theme in all of them is people will see the attacker, see him pull out the weapon, see him start killing people, and then after several people have been killed, they snap to and orient to their new reality.

The mind is just the biggest hurdle I think. To give another example, I can remember one of my first force on force experiences. The scenario was you are in a restaurant and two confederates in crime start squabbling over how to divide up the money. One kills the other. This scenario was based on a real life example. I went into this wearing sims gear and knowing I was going to be put in a “situation.”

Despite having some difficulty hearing what was going on through the sims helmet, I quickly sussed they were going to kill each other and thought “Well, great! My problem is solved!” It was only after one bad guy killed the other and was pointing the weapon at me that I realized we were the only witnesses to a murder and I hadn’t even tried to access my sims gun because I was in “spectator” mode - and this was a training exercise, not real life!

I think that rapidly reorienting to a novel situation that is outside the ken of most people is very difficult. I think this is one area law enforcement has a huge advantage. They have more experience with this and more “stress inoculation” even if they aren’t particularly handy with a pistol.

It’s also why I am a huge fan of formal training for self-defense. Here, a 5-6 second response would put the defender well above what I’ve observed and close to supernatural.

[JohnKSa]

I think some people spend their last minutes of life thinking something along the lines of: "This can't be happening."

I know I see a lot of survivors being interviewed who state something like: "I couldn't believe it was happening."

A lot of people think the key to being alert is going through life expecting something bad to happen at any moment.

I think that it's enough to just NOT expect that nothing bad can happen.

If you have to spend time convincing yourself that something is really happening, you're wasting time that you could be using to save your life or someone else's.

[USNRet93]

Plus a point on the often criticized NBC news, it’s interview with the Retired FBI guy, paraphrasing here, ‘if you have a concealed carry permit, it’s important to carry every where it’s legal to do so, because this can happen anywhere, at any time’......yup!

[shurshot]

Just to clarify, when I wrote
"Monday morning quarterbacking?", it was not intended as an insinuation directed at anyone who had previously posted, but rather made as an opening statement of MY assessment of the incident. I meant I had no criticism. It obviously was a poor phrase to open with as some may have interpreted my intention as critical of their opinions. I perhaps should have opened with "My thoughts?". While I have nothing but praise and respect pertaining to the hero('s) actions, obviously others may not share the same view and have constructive criticism or points of contention to share, as is the purpose of this subforum. One sword sharpens another! Sorry for any misunderstanding caused by my choice of words.

[American Man]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I couldn't see it until I found a high-quality version of the video that was zoomed to show only the portion of interest on the video frame. You can see the video on John Correia's ASP channel.

He places his hand on his gun when the shooter pulls out his firearm and then he maintains that position for about 3 seconds until the shooter fires the first shot, killing Mr. White. At the shot, he begins to actually draw the gun and fires approximately 2 seconds later killing the shooter.

It's hard to know what his perception was at the time of the shooting--and as I mentioned above, the camera's perspective is somewhat different from his. He can only report what he remembers, just as I can only assess what I see in the video.

I see what you are talking about. I just don't see it as hesitation, instead I see it as he is still assessing. I've watched this video many times. He may not have had the smoothest draw, even with his hand on the grip while assessing, but when he does clear the holster you can see that muscle memory took over.

[JohnKSa]

While I have nothing but praise and respect pertaining to the hero('s) actions, obviously others may not share the same view and have constructive criticism or points of contention to share, as is the purpose of this subforum. One sword sharpens another!

You make a good point. It's important not to criticize with the point of tearing down the defenders or merely for the purpose of trying to find a way to indict their actions.

This situation offers a unique opportunity in that there is good solid video evidence from start to finish. It's really amazing to be able to go through it in detail and see how things progressed.

I'm impressed with how the situation was handled and I commend the defenders for their willingness to act, for getting the job done and for saving lives.

But there are two innocent people dead and it's very difficult not to look at the scenario as it plays out and try to determine if there is anything that might have been done differently to save those two lives. To see if there are any lessons that can be learned that might benefit others. Not to criticize the defenders, but to help others who find themselves in similar situations in the future.

For example, Mr. White, the man who found the courage to act without hesitation and draw his pistol even though faced with a shotgun muzzle, was apparently carrying SOB and was wearing two cover garments. He stood to draw, perhaps because he felt his gun was inaccessible while seated, and managed to get his gun clear of both cover garments, but the entire process took around 4 seconds. His gun wasn't yet on target when he was shot by the attacker. I can't fault his decision to act and I commend him for his courage, but I wish his gun had been more readily accessible. I can't help but wonder if he had been able to shave half a second off his draw, if his gun, that was pointing about 45 degrees downward when he was shot, might have been leveled and fired in time to save his life.

I don't carry SOB, however I sometimes wear a cover garment long enough that I sit on it partially. Clearly the ability to draw cleanly from a seated position could be an advantage in some situations. I'm going to have to think about taking steps to make sure my cover garments don't unduly complicate my draw while I'm seated and I think others who carry in a similar manner would do well to consider the topic too.

[Brit]

The average adult has no idea of a violent confrontation! They have never been in one of those, as an adult. So response when being thrust into the first one in their lives, mostly, is to do nothing, just freeze.

Shooting a pistol at a distance requires some prior experience in doing just that, shooting at a distance? Say 100M. Or yards.

And having a pistol, set up to perform that exercise. I can only speak from my own setup. My carry pistol, a Glock 19. 4.5 lb trigger, clean crisp release, not much pre-take up. $100 TruGlo aftermarket night sights, this pistol has been fired a lot, by me in IDPA competitions. Carried concealed, OTB at 4 o-clock, Kydex holster.
As a self-employed firearms Instructor for 25 years in Ontario Canada, 500 students a year I am still quite a good shot. At the Palm Bay Police range, a few years ago, I responded to a Federal Officer's challenge! (Boys will be boys) and fired at the steel 100-yard plate, from prone, 3 shots, 3 hits, black Talon 147g 9mm rounds. Trigger control is a prerequisite of accurate fire. I can guarantee the retired FBI church security man, pressed that trigger, no hurried pull.

I would also like to know what pistol he carried that fateful day, and how it is set up?

[Aguila Blanca]

I would also like to know what pistol he carried that fateful day, and how it is set up?

Sig P229 in .357 SIG

[zincwarrior]

That reflects a training culture of which I was only vaguely aware three decades ago. My view was shaped by bullseye shooting and a sloppy group might be met with an admonition that I had shot too quickly or rushed.

Recently invited to an indoor range and training facility, instructors were adamantly opposed to thumb safeties, used appendix carry (a method of carry in which the muzzle is pointed to one's crotch) and groups that are small are met with an admonition that one is shooting too slowly. Their paradigm seems to involve very short distances that devolve into an MMA fight.

My prejudice is toward accurate, slow fire at 50 to 75 feet. Proficiency at that took me some time to develop, and I find it interesting enough to keep doing. Over time, I found that what I considered slow fire became quicker as the steps for each shot compressed chronologically.

I don't see shooter development working the other way. Training to empty a magazine at barely more than arms length isn't primarily a practice of fine motor control and sight alignment.

This isn't a comment on the merit of either activity for someone else, but as I approach 60, the idea of shooting someone an arm's length away with a pistol I hold back at my pectoral muscle to gain an advantage in the ensuing ground fight isn't enticing.

Its a training culture based on studies over the last several decades reflecting that most uses of force are very close distance shooting, and that multiple shots may be required to stop the threat.

[Tactical Jackalope]

This brought on a good amount of conversation.

He has since done interviews with a few media outlets already. Good to hear him speak on it. He's been running for commissioner and this is going to be great for his campaign.

Also, weapon used was a SIG P229 in 357SIG. I wonder if he took the shot in DA or if he cocked the hammer for SA? I coincidentally just made / updated / requested a shut down of a thread regarding that.

It was over in 6 seconds as he waited for people to get out of his way for a clear shot. Man is top notch.

[pete2]

As for 25 yard shooting. I do practice some at 25 yards but my carry is a 642 revolver, I'm never gonna do a 25 yard head shot with it. I will try it next time I go to the range. Can do 25 on IDPA head with a 586 and a 625 but these aren't my carry guns. A 15 yard head shot would be iffy for me with the 642. As a security guard this man had the right gun and ability to do the job. It is highly unlikely that one would have to do a head shot at 25 yards but anything can happen.