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February 1, 2020, 12:51 PM | #51 | ||
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For example: Navajo requires 25% "blood quantum" to be considered a member of the tribe.....the Navajo tribe. Less than 25% doesn't make you ineligible for claiming Native American ancestry The Cherokee Nation doesn't require "blood quantum, but instead "individuals must provide documents connecting them to an enrolled lineal ancestor who is listed on the Dawes Roll with a blood degree. CDIB/Tribal Citizenship is traced through natural parents. In cases of adoption, CDIB/Citizenship must be proven through a biological parent to an ancestor registered on the Dawes Roll.” Quote:
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February 1, 2020, 01:12 PM | #52 | |||||||
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Child is adopted by a Navajo family, biological great grandparent was a full blooded Navajo, no one else in that childs bloodline is Navajo. Meaning the kid is not eligible for membership in the Navajo tribe. They live on a reservation. To anyone with a lick of common sense that there....is tribal affiliation or community association, but NOT a member of the tribe. Meaning the child could select Native American on the Form 4473. Quote:
I learned all that the first time I read the 4473. Regarding the meaning of "tribal affiliation or community association", the government doesn't have to provide a definition of every word or term in a document, instead they rely on the ordinary meaning rule: "a principle of statutory interpretation that when a word is not defined in a statute or other legal instrument, the court normally construes it in accordance with its ordinary or natural meaning. This rule guides courts faced with litigation that turns on the meaning of a term not defined by the statute, or on that of a word found within a definition itself." Quote:
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February 1, 2020, 01:28 PM | #53 |
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Gentlemen, I think this is becoming a bit irrelevant. IF Elizabeth Warren, or any one else checks a racial/ethnic box they aren't "qualified" for, what's going to happen??
IF your DNA test comes back saying you are 0.1% sasquatch can you check the sasquatch box?? Is the govt doing DNA checks to ensure you're ONLY checking the appropriate boxes on the 4473? I don't think so... If you check the "wrong" box because you IDENTIFY with that group, and your DNA proves you don't have any kind of significant connection with that group, are you going to be charged with lying on the 4473???
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February 1, 2020, 01:29 PM | #54 |
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Good point. The choices under "Race" are
American Indian or Alaskan Native Asian Black or African American Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander White My question has always been.... If actually born in South Africa and white...which choice is correct.
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February 1, 2020, 02:16 PM | #55 | |
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He lied on a 4473 that he was the actual buyer, was convicted and appealed to the USSC and lost. Now, he likely would never have been caught if he wasn't being investigated for other crimes, where a search warrant turned up a check from his uncle that was payment for a Glock that Abramski bought using his police discount. No one would have ever seen his 4473 if they hadn't followed up on that check. When Abramski signed that 4473 its was under penalty of law.....a law that he violated by identifying himself as the actual buyer/transferee. If I were to check off "Hispanic" & "Asian' of which I know am neither, and sign the 4473 I have committed a Federal crime. Although ATF/FBI/Texas Rangers/Mayberry PD may never see that 4473, that doesn't make it any less of a crime. It isn't something to be flippant about and I highly recommend educating oneself with the instructions. Note that a Form 4473 is a one page of the buyers info, one page on the verification/recording of his ID info and a half page on the firearm info......and three and a half pages of instructions and definitions that no one bothers to read. Yet they'll fill out that first page in under a minute making numerous errors that a dealer will do his best to catch. I've asked more than one lily white red head "are you sure you're Native American?" If he's positive then the consequences are on him.
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February 1, 2020, 02:20 PM | #56 | |
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WHERE you were born is immaterial. Remember, the instructions are there for a reason.
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February 1, 2020, 03:50 PM | #57 | |||
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An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary". Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate". "Community attachment" does seem to mean something more broad than enrollment. I'll guess that liking untaxed cigarettes is less community attachment than most would accept for checking that box. Quote:
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Assuming that good sense untangles the 4473 knot is a leap.
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February 1, 2020, 07:16 PM | #58 | |||
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Definition of affiliation: the state or relation of being closely associated or affiliated with a particular person, group, party, company, etc. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliation Quote:
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February 1, 2020, 07:28 PM | #59 | |
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In several thousand transfers to customers who chose Black or African American I can only recall one who chose more than just Black, he also chose Hawaiian and one other I believe.
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February 1, 2020, 10:06 PM | #60 |
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OK, taking another look at the 4473 in the link, it appears Hispanic/non Hispanic must be answered, and can only be one or the other.
But the instructions for the race block say "select one or more". To me that says that if you know you are mixed race, then you simply check more than one box. Doesn't seem that complex. If you're more than one thing, you check more than one box. As far as the Abramski case, evidence indicated there was a deliberate attempt to deceive, and thereby violate the law. I'd like to think that simple mistake due to lack of information would be treaked differently by the courts. Still a technical violation of law but without intent, should make a difference. In my case, I can trace my mother's family in a direct line back to 1555 and a collateral branch back to 1056. "White" Europeans, all. On my father's side, the line stops "dead" with his parents. There is no information beyond their names and dates. All family records were destroyed in a fire somewhere around 1900 or so. SO, my father's side could POSSIBLY contain more than traces of other racial groups. I don't know, and I don't have (and am not getting a DNA test just to find out). SO, I might be qualified to check other boxes, but I don't. I only check the one I'm sure of. Am I committing a federal crime by NOT checking boxes I don't know for sure I should? To me that's a much different matter than claiming "first people" status to get admission to a college or something like that and decades later having the DNA say "you are only 0.01%-1.6%" of the claimed status. Not going to lose any sleep over it, either way.
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February 1, 2020, 10:17 PM | #61 | |
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There is absolutely nothing in any laws that requires a person to know their ancestry to an exhaustively accurate extent. When the law requires all citizens to get DNA tests and submit the results to the government, then you will know that the situation has changed.
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February 2, 2020, 08:25 AM | #62 | |||||||
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Instead, the assertion to which you've responded is that "Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." and so can properly check "White" according to 4473 instructions even where their phenotype and social identity may be "Black" or "African American". We stopped importing people from Africa more than two centuries ago, and interbreeding has been a common pattern, perhaps more in the past than currently. A country in which Rachel Dolezal successfully passed as "Black" is one in which mixed race people with even the slightest bit of remaining sub-Saharan phenotype can identify as "Black", even where they are primarily of European descent.
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February 2, 2020, 10:53 AM | #63 |
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This whole issue of precisely stating gender and race seems a mute point. Unless one grossly and intentionally misstates their race or gender (e.g.black vs white or male vs female) and with malicious intent I cannot imaging a federal prosecutor pursuing the case. So long as one enters what they believe best describes themselves they're fine. If one intentionally deceives with malice, then they deserve to be prosecuted.
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February 2, 2020, 01:18 PM | #64 | |
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Those are requirements .... but, as I have been pointing out, nowhere do the instructions or anything else I've been able to find explain what "tribal affiliation" or "community attachment" means. More to your post -- those conditions apply ONLY to American Indians and Alaska Natives. There is no requirement for a black person to maintain a tribal affiliation or community association. Likewise for a Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. There is no requirement for people of Asian ancestry to maintain any sort of community (cultural?) attachment to the land or people or customs of their ancestry. Another example: My roommate in graduate school is Chinese American. Actually, he's American -- his mother and father were Chinese American. My roommate is almost 100% Chinese by DNA, but he was born and raised in Virginia, grew up hanging around with American kids, speaks zero Chinese, has no ties to China, and his wife is a stereotypical Italian American. If he were to buy a firearm, he should check the box for "Asian" -- even though his entire goal in life was to be the all-American boy, and the fact that he maintains no cultural associations of any sort with the land of his ancestors. Why is that limiting condition applied to American Indians and Alaska Natives, but not o any of the other "racial" groups? It doesn't make any sense. It makes even lewss sense when you realize that the instructions aren't even clear as to what the limitations mean.
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February 2, 2020, 02:52 PM | #65 | ||
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You continue to ignore the point of the buyers identifying information: Again........the descriptive information given by a buyer on the Form 4473 is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations. Quote:
If OMB wanted they could offer thousands of little checkboxes: Indian, Inuit, Aborigine....but for goodness sakes a heck of a lot more ethnicities than Hispanic. But at some point, probably around page thirty, they would realize the 4473 is kinda thick and all those hundreds of choices don't aid or help in the buyers identification.
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February 2, 2020, 02:55 PM | #66 | |
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February 2, 2020, 03:19 PM | #67 | ||
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Used for identification? People from India (in general) don't look anything like people from China or Japan. In fact, (in general) people from Japan don't actually look a whole lot like people from Korea. Many (Asian) Indians don't regard India as part of Asia at all. The classifications are arbitrary, and they were not developed just for background checks and criminal investigations. Tom, your position is inconsistent. On one hand, you say the information "is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations." But then you say the classifications come from the OMB -- which is true. And various federal and state agencies all use those same classifications, and not solely for background checks and criminal investigations. The classification information may also be used for determining who is or is not eligible for certain programs and/or benefits. All I'm saying is that the choice for American Indian or Alaska Native, per the 4473 instructions, imposes certain unexplained limitations on who is supposed to check that box, limitations that do not apply to any of the other choices. I don't think the instructions are clear as to what the two possible qualifiers mean; you apparently don't see any lack of clarity. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
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February 2, 2020, 04:46 PM | #68 | ||
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February 2, 2020, 08:12 PM | #69 | ||||||||
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But you wrote the following: Actually, he's American -- his mother and father were Chinese American. My roommate is almost 100% Chinese by DNA, but he was born and raised in Virginia, grew up hanging around with American kids, speaks zero Chinese, has no ties to China, and his wife is a stereotypical Italian American. If he were to buy a firearm, he should check the box for "Asian" -- even though his entire goal in life was to be the all-American boy, and the fact that he maintains no cultural associations of any sort with the land of his ancestors. "Even though".......implies that choosing "Asian" is somehow incorrect....because he's always wanted to be "the All American boy". Quote:
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1. The Race & Ethnicity question and options were required by OMB...on all federal documents that ask such identifying questions. 2. The Form 4473 says right there in the instructions to 10a and 10b: "Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.124(c)(1)) require licensees to obtain the race of the transferee/buyer. This information helps the FBI and/or State POC make or rule out potential matches during the background check process and can assist with criminal investigations." You might disagree with that, I don't. But arguing with me isn't going to change the mind of the FBI or State POC on the information gathered or how they use it. Quote:
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February 4, 2020, 09:14 PM | #70 |
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My understanding was address need not match your driver's license provided you can show some government issued proof of the address used, ie property tax bill, auto registration, etc.. specifically this came up regarding someone with a primary residence and DL in one state but a secondary residence where they were purchasing a gun in another.
I'm also pretty sure a passport allows buying guns and such has no address. Is that true? |
February 4, 2020, 09:23 PM | #71 |
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Just answered my own question, law says any combination of documents that establishes picture, name, and residency is good to go. So theoretically a passport, which has no such address, and a government document matching the name and specifying address, would meet it.
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