A Tale of Three Bullets

[Hardcase]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

OK, maybe not so good, maybe not so bad. Here's the situation: My buddy has all the reloading gear and I have the brass, primers, powder and bullets. So, we got together last weekend to reload a couple of hundred 9mm rounds. Things did not go so well. Here's a picture of some problems. Hopefully some of you can give me a little advice on what in the world went wrong.



Round number 1 (like roughly 120 similar rounds) does not fully chamber in my Walther P5. Round number 2 chambers corrrectly. The non-labeled round is a commercial "remanufactured" round that chambers and fires just fine - it's there for reference. The bullets are 115gr TMJ.

I did some measuring with a digital caliper.

A: Overall length from tip of bullet to base
B: Case length from mouth to base
C: Diameter of base directly above the rim
D: Diameter of case mouth
E: Diameter of bullet at case mouth

Round #1:
A: 1.1380"
B: 0.7425"
C: 0.3850"
D: 0.3665"
E: 0.3600"

Round #2:
A: 1.1370"
B: 0.7485"
C: 0.3800"
D: 0.3655"
E: 0.3585"

Non-labeled round
A: 1.1195"
B: 0.7400"
C: 0.3850"
D: 0.3755"
E: 0.3530"

The 49th edition of Lyman's Handbook has these specs for a 9mm round:
A: 1.1690"
B: 0.7540"
C: 0.3910"
D: 0.3800"
E: 0.3550"

The obvious thing that I see in the photo is that the bullet in round #1 is not straight. However, of the other 120 or so rounds that will not chamber, almost all are straight (I just grabbed one at random before I went to work today). The bullet profiles are not the same as the round on the right.

I targeted an overall length of just under 1.1400". However, I suspect that might have been the cause of my trouble...the store-bought round is 0.02" shorter than that, and that's with a somewhat narrower profile bullet. Also, looking at the 147gr FMJ entry in the Lyman book, it shows an overall length of 1.1100". That's probably the main fault, huh...

Also, you can see that the mouth of the case is very well defined in the purchased round, but not in the reloads. Is that a problem?

Obviously, if I would have been thinking straight, I would have had my pistol with me when we were reloading and adjusted...well, whatever needed to be adjusted.

Finally, my really big question is this: I have roughly 20 rounds that chamber correctly - that is, when loaded, the slide locks and the pistol appears ready to fire. Based on that, are those rounds safe to shoot? Or should I just scrap the whole lot of them and start again? (Well, starting again is a given, right?)

Thanks!

[mongoose33]

Two things:

First, it looks like the case wasn't expanded (belled) before you tried to seat the bullets. Look at the bullet just above the case mouth--the bullets should be just as smooth-looking as the "commercial" round.

Looks like you're using some sort of plated bullet and part of that plating is being pushed up by the case mouth. Either you're not expanding at all, or not enough.

Second, the OAL listed will be for a specific bullet which may be significantly different than what you're loading. If you look closely at the bullets you're using versus the commercial, look how much more "pointed" the commercial bullet is.

My guess w/ the first bullet--as to why it's not seating--is that, plus it's got runout, i.e., is not straight. Sounds like it's contacting the rifling.

Further, there's a strange deformity at the top of the two bullets you used, which may be from jamming against something in the chamber, preventing good chambering (yeah, I know you said round #2 chambers, but I'll bet not by much).

When I started reloading, I reloaded just a few to ensure I had the process right. I shot them, recorded the results, then reloaded some more taking that information into account.

Go slower, guy!

[tomfish1]

do you have the resizing/decapping die ran all the way down to the shell plate? That was one of my initial problems when I started. Run it all the way down and resize one and see if it fits in the barrel ok before going farther.

[azredhawk44]

You're crimping way too tightly.

Either don't crimp at all, or crimp so little that you're not completely certain that the press is even doing any work.

#1 looks like you have your seat/crimp die adjusted so tightly that it doesn't finish seating before the bullet/brass is squeezed for crimp.

#2 exhibits similar symptoms, but not as badly.

I had a similar batch with my first .45acp reloads. Learned the hard way, too, as I beat the bullets out of the brass with a kinetic hammer and salvaged what I could.

To fix this:

1. Bell the case mouth prior to seating the bullet.
2. Crimp a LOT less.

[bfoosh006]

I have a question concerning the projectile, whose bullets are those? That profile doesn't look like it would feed very well,...not very pointy and pretty darn "fat"...the factory bullet is the type of profile you should look for.And,you might be jamming your bullet into the lands, and that can lead to higher then expected pressures.

Next, I suspect that you are accidently seating the bullet whilest the crimp is being applied...leading to a deformed bullet, ( which won't feed worth a crap)

And that is WAY, WAY to much crimp... try backing off the seating die a turn or two, then adjust the seating stem to get to your OAL..then remove the seating stem completely and adjust the die down slowly to get the right amount of crimp, (... make it look like the factory round). After you get 'er done...screw the seating stem back in and down (gently..)to the bullet, that should get you close to where the die needs to be. From there you should have better luck in tuning the load.


Ooops, and as for the amount of crimp...it should be just enough so that when you take reloaded round and press the bullet tip of the round against your bench, with your thumb and pointn' finger holdin' it , the bullet should not sink in any farther. Thats important to have that much crimp because you are loading for an autoloader. Those bullets can get jammed in to the case without enough crimp. (If you need an example, take a factory round and push it against the edge of the bench, you'll see how much you need to apply to your reloads.)

[Sport45]

As others have said, you are overcrimping the rounds quite a bit. The 9mm headspaces on the case mouth so it is important that it not be pressed into the bullet.

To set up you seat/crimp die try this:

Unscrew the die body from the press 5 or 6 turns. Unscrew the seating stem from the die 9 or 10 turns (or take it all the way out).

Put a known good round (New FMJ or commercial reloaded FMJ) in the shell holder and raise the ram to the top of its stroke.

Screw the die body in until you feel it contact the case shoulder. Holding the die still, screw the seating stem in until you feel the seating plug just contact the top of the bullet.

Lower the ram and turn the die body in an addition 1/8 turn. Hold the die still and snug the die locking ring down.

Make small adjustments to OAL with seating stem as needed.

I keep a dummy round for each cartridge and bullet I commonly reload and use it in the above manner for quickly setting up my dies whenever they have been removed from their turret or toolhead.

[Wildalaska]

Too much crimp and unless my aging googlies are misleading me, looks like the cases arent properly sized

WildbutthatcouldbebecauseoftheovercrimpAlaska TM

[Hardcase]

Thanks, everyone for the advice and suggestions. We're going to give it another go this weekend and aim for better results.

[Cloudpeak]

As others have said, a bit too much crimp. I crimp my lead 9mm rounds to .376" and they work fine in my pistols. The taper crimp is designed to remove the case mouth flare. Bullet retention is a function of the sizing die and expander plug. IOW, the more taper crimp you have does nothing for bullet retention and too much can actually reduce bullet tension.

You should load some dummy rounds, measure their OAL and chamber them several times from slide lock and measure for setback. Especially for high pressure rounds like 9mm and 40 S&W, setback can lead to excessive pressure.

I think a large number of people would recommend seating and taper crimping in separate operations (at least that's the way I've always done pistol rounds.)

Do your bullets have a shoulder on them? The first picture kind of looks like they do. Otherwise, it looks like you're displacing the copper plating when seating. Not enough case mouth bell or a function of trying to seat and crimp in the same operation.

You can't go by what the Lyman manual says for OAL as there are many different bullet designs of the same weight. When first setting up my dies, I remove the barrel from the pistol and use it to check OAL for proper chambering. You can drop your factory rounds in the barrel and get a good idea of how your reloads should fit the barrel.

[Hardcase]

Cloudpeak, that's exactly my plan for tomorrow - I'm going to load some dummies and test fit them with the barrel of my pistol.

Again, thanks to all.