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Old October 26, 2022, 06:39 PM   #26
MarkCO
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I should have expected someone to go read an internet article about Aluminum. Bending Aluminum past the elastic range (which is small) is not classical work hardening. Aluminum, unlike most metals, has a strain curve that is based on the number of cycles, at any level. Work hardening increases the surface hardness leaving the base subsurface material ductile...and Aluminum does not do that. Classical work hardening occurs when the material has not been pushed into the plastic range.
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Old October 26, 2022, 06:50 PM   #27
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I think the point of just shoot what works best and buy a new barrel if need be is the way to go . Point being if you shoot 50k rounds instead of 70k rounds does it really matter that you need to spend $100 on a new barrel . Keeping in mind how much it cost commercial ammo or in components to reload those 50k rounds . Every $5k you need to spend an extra $100 , not really a big deal .

Then there’s the whole idea will you even shoot that many in any given gun . I used to think so but collections get bigger and pretty soon your lucky if any one firearm sees 1k a year . If you were talking rifle maybe I’d have a little more concern but handguns I wouldn’t sweat it .
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Old October 26, 2022, 08:45 PM   #28
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Barrels are made of steel.
Bullets are made of ...something softer than steel...

When a harder material is rubs on a softer one, the softer one is what wears.

IT isn't the BULLETS that wear out the barrel, it is the heat/pressure of firing.

The higher the intensity of the firing, the greater the effect (more rapid= wear per round count).

A rifle barrel used entirely in slow fire will last X,000 rounds before wear begins to affect its performance. An identical barrel firing the same ammuntion, used for rapid fire, will not last as many rounds before wear has an effect. It's the HEAT and Pressure of the gas, "cutting" the steel.

The same process is at work with handgun barrels. Its just generally "slower" due to lower temps and pressures.

Under lab conditions, I'm sure you could run a test, and find a measurable difference between two barrels shooting the same load one with jacketed and one with plated bullets. Now, the question is, is that difference going to be something significant, or just a difference in numbers on paper?

For example, if the jacketed bullet barrel is judged worn out at 8,637 rounds and the plated bullet test barrel takes 9,210 to reach the same point, does that matter from a practical standpoint? (numbers for illustration only)

The other point to consider is, how well will your test barrels reflect/represent the actual in use barrels of other guns??
Heat is the major factor, but metal on metal friction is a factor. Lead can wear steel just like water can wear a rock.
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Old October 27, 2022, 10:23 AM   #29
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I think the point of just shoot what works best and buy a new barrel if need be is the way to go.
Agree. I have only worn out 1 pistol barrel and I am averaging over 25K a year.

Quote:
Lead can wear steel just like water can wear a rock.
Yep.
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Old October 29, 2022, 06:14 AM   #30
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akinswi,

As mentioned above by folks who shoot more than I do, your probably good picking out a particular load, or brand of factory ammo and going on about your business enjoying your shooting.

I myself picked up my first 9mm about 6yrs back. In the 8 months following that I picked up a second and had gone through roughly 9k rounds between the two, based on primer usage, and probably half again that many since. Of those, most were plated, followed by cast, and then jacketed. Both barrels show more wear from the slide, than from the bullets, and that is only a slight wearing of the bluing. I used powders from fast to slow, target type and +P loads, and also ran a bunch of factory in amongst them.

It's not scientific, but they hang in there for quite a while if not overly abused and taken care of.
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Old October 29, 2022, 07:56 AM   #31
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When you have a barrel maker that is a member, posting, and is also a court sanctioned ballistics expert. I'm so hurt. (sarcasm)
Not doubting them. I will just make the side note that in my years in the court room, I encountered quite a few court recognized legal experts who were dumb as a brick and flat wrong. Arson investigators being the worst. In DNA early days, expert testimony in it was 100% wrong based on what we now know today, especially in areas of how it can and supposedly could not be transferred.
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Old October 29, 2022, 07:59 AM   #32
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I should have expected someone to go read an internet article about Aluminum. Bending Aluminum past the elastic range (which is small) is not classical work hardening. Aluminum, unlike most metals, has a strain curve that is based on the number of cycles, at any level. Work hardening increases the surface hardness leaving the base subsurface material ductile...and Aluminum does not do that. Classical work hardening occurs when the material has not been pushed into the plastic range.
All I can tell you about Aluminum is I hate welding it. Its ability to "sink" heat is unbelievable.
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Old October 30, 2022, 08:12 PM   #33
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Thermal effusivity (a property that describes how fast heat will transfer into a material) of aluminum is about half-again higher than for iron (steel is usually a little lower than iron, especially stainless, which is half that of some conventional steels). But for copper, it is about half-again higher than aluminium. Silver is higher still. So if you want some frustration, try welding to a block of copper (or silver, if you can afford it and your money is just burning a hole in your pocket).

Lead actually won't wear down steel in the same way water wears rock. A lot of rock wear by water happens because water actually dissolves rock minerals from its surface over time, and lead can't dissolve steel in the solid state. One wear factor the two do have in common, though, is the ability of both water and lead to move grit against a harder material. Lead is able to hold grit against steel, while water bangs grit against a harder surface more randomly, so lead is the better lap, normally. Firelapping is just doing this on purpose. But if you shoot lead bullets for non-lapping purposes, you will get best barrel life by keeping them clean.
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Old November 19, 2022, 09:51 PM   #34
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4Amp says a rifle barrel used entirely in slow fire will last X,000 rounds before wear begins to affect its performance.

I'm not aware of any 26 or 28 caliber magnum lasting more than 900 rounds in long-range matches, My 264 Win Mag lasted 640, two 30 caliber magnums went 900. All slow fire.
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Old November 20, 2022, 01:08 PM   #35
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4Amp says a rifle barrel used entirely in slow fire will last X,000 rounds before wear begins to affect its performance.
I said that, and used "X" as the number because there is no way to predict the actual number accurately due to the many, many variables involved.

Quote:
I'm not aware of any 26 or 28 caliber magnum lasting more than 900 rounds in long-range matches, My 264 Win Mag lasted 640, two 30 caliber magnums went 900. All slow fire.
And here's where those variables really show up. Sometimes, the "X thousand" round number can be less than 1.

First question I would ask is what was your criteria for "used up" that was met at less than 1,000 rounds by those big overbore magnums???

There's a significant difference between what a serious match shooter considers "no longer good enough" and what the annual deer hunter does. I've got a .308 Win that has about 4,000 rnds (pretty much all slow fire) through it give or take a few, and its still delivers minute of deer accuracy.

I'm sure a match shooter would consider that barrel worn out and not good enough to win matches, and they'd be entirely correct about that, from their specialized point of view, but that barrel isn't worn out to the point where it no longer does the job it was made to do. Not even close, actually.
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Old November 20, 2022, 05:22 PM   #36
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I just rebarreled a 308 that had 3800rds down the pipe that still shot moa or better . Problem was it shot sub 1/2 moa when new . I’ll likely have the barrel rechambered with a new crown cutting a little off each end of the 24” barrel to do so .
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Old November 23, 2022, 05:22 PM   #37
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308 Win tests done by Kevin Thomas at Sierra in the late '90s wore out chrome-moly barrels at 3000 rounds and SS at about 3500 rounds. These were barrels in Remington actions mounted to a test bench and fired in Sierra's indoor test range. The criterion was watching for a flier to appear and afterward confirming that fliers were now starting to occur regularly to confirm that the first flier wasn't just an outlier.

That's what happened when my M1A's first barrel went out, too. I was cleaning a slow-fire target in a match when I got an uncalled nine at about 10:30. At first, one in 20 did that, then it became 1-in-10, then 1-in-5. Basically, it took a 0.75 moa rifle and made it a 1.75 moa rifle if I took the halfway point between its original group center and the fliers as the new POI. Fine for deer and combat shooting, but just not a target rifle anymore. That did happen somewhere just past 3000 rounds.
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Old November 24, 2022, 02:09 PM   #38
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Big bottleneck cases holding lots of slow burning powder jetting out through relatively small bore size driving heavy for caliber long skinny bullets through tight twist barrels .... Yup. Heat and gas and powder particulants do cut steel.

Using identical bullets,a 308 barrel will outlast a 300 Win Mag barrel. I'd bet the US military has data on that concerning sniper rifles.

At some point,the "fire" is the predominant wear factor. It might be "How many pounds of powder can the throat handle vs how many bullets."
Is there abrasive grit in a primer?

But with 22 Rimfire, or 38 spl or other lead bullet,powder stingy target loads..

"Cleaning" might be the biggest wear factor,

I have machined a lot of graphite EDM electrodes. Graphite will dull high speed and carbide cutters .
Graphite is present in both burn deterrent and some bullet lubes. OK,graphite comes in various forms.

But I have seen some gritty,nasty powder fouling from ball powders.

And yes,its true! We think the softer metal would not wear the harder metal.

But a softer metal WILL embed grit. Each speck of grit is a cutter tooth. That is the principal of the "Lap". I have polished a lot of mold steel using cast iron or brass or copper ,even wood to embed and drive abrasive grit.

Your brass or aluminum or even plastic coated cleaning rod,or dirty bronze brush can cut your barrel steel.
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Old November 26, 2022, 01:03 PM   #39
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USA sniper rifle accuracy specifications aren't as small as most folks think. In 1971, I asked Carlos Hathcock what his 30-06 Winchester 70 had at 600 yards with the M72 match ammo he used. 10 to 12 inches was his reply.
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Old November 26, 2022, 02:57 PM   #40
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USA sniper rifle accuracy specifications aren't as small as most folks think. In 1971, I asked Carlos Hathcock what his 30-06 Winchester 70 had at 600 yards with the M72 match ammo he used. 10 to 12 inches was his reply.
For hitting human torso size target, that's quite adequate. I thought snipers in combat hardly have chance to do follow-up shots, as the target would run or hide. It turns out they mostly freeze in confusion.

Time has passed. With today's advanced technologies, this sort of accuracy has become almost a walk in the park. I wouldn't be surprised computer will soon take up the task of aiming according to the firing solution based on the real-time environmental conditions. Human just greenlights the shot. Even guided bullets are not too far fetched.

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Old November 26, 2022, 04:05 PM   #41
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There iare already a sighting systems like that. Sight determines target range, wind, angle off horizontal and inertial sensors detects how fast you are moving the rifle to follow the target. After the computer solves the ballistics, a red dot appears in the scope to show where the bullet will impact. You adjust your hold to get the impact dot over the target and press the trigger.

I'm pretty sure it won't matter to the computer whether you are using a jacketed or a plated bullet, as long as your BCs are correct.
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Old November 26, 2022, 04:33 PM   #42
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There iare already a sighting systems like that. Sight determines target range, wind, angle off horizontal and inertial sensors detects how fast you are moving the rifle to follow the target. After the computer solves the ballistics, a red dot appears in the scope to show where the bullet will impact. You adjust your hold to get the impact dot over the target and press the trigger.

I'm pretty sure it won't matter to the computer whether you are using a jacketed or a plated bullet, as long as your BCs are correct.
That's similar to the electronic gun sight on fighter jets. We started using them during Korean war.

Perhaps it can go even further. The servo system even traverses the gun. When the operator greenlights the shot, it ignites the primer, either mechanically or electrically.

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Last edited by tangolima; November 26, 2022 at 05:27 PM.
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Old November 27, 2022, 08:45 AM   #43
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anyone remember the movie...'looker?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ2fVYZwp5g
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Old November 27, 2022, 10:55 PM   #44
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Its also amazing how shooting 3 FMJs will almost completely clean out any lead fouling after 1 range session of shooting cast lead. Notice I said 1 range session not a whole season.

And it does, my previous range session with my SA Range officer I shot exactly 200 ROund nose lead ball and cleaned the barrel and I had typical lead fouling. mind you these were light loads using 230 grain bullets and 4 grains of Bullseye powder.

The following week, I shot another 200 rds same everything but I shot 3 fmj rounds at the end too see if it would clean the lead out, and I noticed almost zero lead fouling after clean up.

The next experiment I wanted to run was to season the pistol barrel with EWL slip 2000 and see if it will completely eliminate the leading in the barrel.
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Old November 27, 2022, 11:00 PM   #45
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Its also amazing how shooting 3 FMJs will almost completely clean out any lead fouling after 1 range session of shooting cast lead. Notice I said 1 range session not a whole season.

And it does, my previous range session with my SA Range officer I shot exactly 200 ROund nose lead ball and cleaned the barrel and I had typical lead fouling. mind you these were light loads using 230 grain bullets and 4 grains of Bullseye powder.

The following week, I shot another 200 rds same everything but I shot 3 fmj rounds at the end too see if it would clean the lead out, and I noticed almost zero lead fouling after clean up.

The next experiment I wanted to run was to season the pistol barrel with EWL slip 2000 and see if it will completely eliminate the leading in the barrel.
I have used slip 2000 ewl in conjunction with lead, albeit full power loads. Did not seem to help. Seasoning with frog lube paste is my next experiment.
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Old November 28, 2022, 06:44 AM   #46
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Shadow,

Thats interesting I figured it would have helped at least a little. Did you soak the barrel for any length of time or did you just run a wet patch thru , followed by a dry patch?
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Old November 28, 2022, 07:44 AM   #47
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Shadow,

Thats interesting I figured it would have helped at least a little. Did you soak the barrel for any length of time or did you just run a wet patch thru , followed by a dry patch?
I typically use a bore cleaner. Generally slip 2000 carbon killer for lead. Run dry patches. Then run an oiled patch and put it up. So i leave a light coat of oil in the bore. No dry patch after.

Frog lube paste your supposed to heat. Hair dryer or heat gun to warm it up and help it adhere to the metal. Kind of like seasoning cast iron your just not burning it on. Works great on my ar, just kinda a pain for the initial application. Or of you use a cleaner that strips it off.
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Old November 28, 2022, 09:24 PM   #48
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S&W recommends against shooting jacketed bullets through a leaded bore, reporting having received a number of guns badly damaged by the increased pressure it creates. Also, in my experience it doesn't really work. It burnishes the lead fouling into the bore surface which makes it look shiny and clean. Run a dry brush in and out and you can see the smooth look get dull from the brush putting scratches in the lead glazing.

I've had good luck with Sharpshoot'r NO-LEAD. It chemically converts the lead to a dark crumbly compound that patches out. Back in the '80s when I found a brush would roughen the smooth and clean-looking ironed-in lead, it was before the electrolytic cleaner (another good removal approach if done properly) and I used the old method of amalgamating lead with mercury to get it out. That converts lead to a crumbly compound that is easy to brush out, but the brushing creates a spray of tiny beads of Mercury flying off the brush bristles when you push it through, so it has the potential to turn your work area into what, by modern standards, would be considered a hazmat site.
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Old November 29, 2022, 10:38 AM   #49
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No-lead works. In my case it turns grey silvery leading into white powdery substance, which seems to dissolve in solvent (boretech eliminator).

I also worry about the mist created by the brush exiting the muzzle. I always have some sort of catch. A plastic bag tied around the muzzle is the usual.

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Old November 29, 2022, 01:10 PM   #50
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No-lead works. In my case it turns grey silvery leading into white powdery substance, which seems to dissolve in solvent (boretech eliminator).

I also worry about the mist created by the brush exiting the muzzle. I always have some sort of catch. A plastic bag tied around the muzzle is the usual.

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Boretech Eliminator is the only cleaning solvent I have now. Except Hoppes no 9 I just use it for fragrance when I clean
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