38 s&w loads with 148 hbwc

dntorbert · November 18, 2002, 06:45 PM

Well I finally got a set of dies for reloading 38 s&w (not special) for the little top break H&R that I bought and repaired....So now it is time to see if I can improve the accuracy any since the gun is so much fun to shoot..I was thinking that hollow base wad cutters should help with the expanding to bore and whatnot but not quite sure where so start on loads. Obviously not exepecting barn burners just something to keep the front facing front and hit the cardboard at 25 yards. I have a small selection of fast powders that should be good for this so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Old Fuff · November 18, 2002, 09:15 PM

I would be a bit cautious with that little top-break. The first question is: does it have positive cylinder stop cuts on the cylinder or not? If you can rotate the cylinder while the trigger is forward, or almost do so then the revolver probably shouldn’t be shot with smokeless powder. If it does have positive notches (like a modern S&W or Colt) then very light loads may be O.K.

Remember a lot of the loading data is based on old balloon-head cases rather them modern solid-head ones. The latter have less capacity so a given charge of smokeless powder will generate more pressure, all other things being equal. Your choice of using hollow-based 148 gr wadcutters is a good idea, but don’t make the mistake of deep seating them. Overall cartridge length should be about the same as a standard 146 gr. roundnose.

One of my older reloading books shows 2gr of Bullseye behind a 147 gr. bullet for 710 FPS out of a 3 ½” barrel. This was likely using balloon-head cases so I would cut that load to 1.5 grs. and perhaps work up to 1.7 grs. Another option would be to use a black powder substitute such as Hodgdon’s “Pistol.”

All of this is not to say you shouldn’t shoot it, but simply to point out that given the gun’s likely age, which could easily be a century or more (most of them were made during the 1890’s through the early 1900’s) you need to use extra care.

jjmorgan64 · November 18, 2002, 09:49 PM

My old Iver Johnson loves a case full of Goex Clear shot with a 150 grain bullet. easy on the top break.
not enough smoke for it to be an issue, no pressure concerns, and just fun to shoot. also non corrosive, and clean up is a snap.

dntorbert · November 19, 2002, 06:53 PM

It does have the notches and postive lockup like you mention and I am looking for a very light load so should be ok. If any thing a 148grn hbwc should have less pressure that a 146 grain rn loaded to same oal if my thinking is straight so I will probably start with 3/4 load for that and see if i can get bullets to stabalize.

Old Fuff · November 19, 2002, 08:18 PM

Jjmogan64 has a good suggestion. Goex Clear Shot is a black powder subsitute that generates very low pressures. If you don't want to go his way start with about 1.5 grains of Bullseye and don't exceed 2.0 grains. I think you will end up with something around 600 FPS, and given the age, quality, and design of the gun you don't want more then that. Have fun.

Clark · November 24, 2002, 07:17 PM

I have many antique break top revolvers in 38S&W.
Most are Iver Johnson, but one is an H&R.

I have overloaded them to see what would happen.
Using 158gr .357" JHP bullets and Blue Dot, I went past 9mm loads and at the top of 38 Super +P loads I got a loose latch.
The "T" shaped latch on the top strap of the revolver has a hole in it. This eye is captured with a screw that the latch rotates about.

I showed this to an old gun designer and told him I had gone too high in pressure. He corrected me and said there were no direct pressure stresses on the latch. He said only recoil forces on the mass of the barrel and bullet friction stretch the latch.
That took many hours of concentration to get my mind around, but now I see it.
Most people can't.

Now I use soft lead bullets and light loads in break top revolvers. When I use round lead balls, I cookie cutter poly wads with the case mouth over the powder and under the ball. 2 gr of Bullsye or 4 gr of Unique are good with either a 158 gr soft lead bullet or soft lead ball.

dntorbert · November 27, 2002, 03:14 PM

I loaded up about 20 rounds of 38s&w with 1.5 grns of bullesye and the 148 grain hbwc and they at least don't keyhole now but when I tested them I had limited time on a busy range so haven't really been able to ring them out yet. Next I think I will experiment with tumble lubing them to cut down on leading.

gordo b. · November 28, 2002, 05:57 PM

Ill have to try this in my 100% closed top Merwin&Hulbert!

November 18, 2002, 06:45 PM	#1
dntorbert Member Join Date: July 20, 2001 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 78	38 s&w loads with 148 hbwc Well I finally got a set of dies for reloading 38 s&w (not special) for the little top break H&R that I bought and repaired....So now it is time to see if I can improve the accuracy any since the gun is so much fun to shoot..I was thinking that hollow base wad cutters should help with the expanding to bore and whatnot but not quite sure where so start on loads. Obviously not exepecting barn burners just something to keep the front facing front and hit the cardboard at 25 yards. I have a small selection of fast powders that should be good for this so any suggestions would be appreciated.

November 18, 2002, 09:49 PM	#3
jjmorgan64 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Posts: 519	My old Iver Johnson loves a case full of Goex Clear shot with a 150 grain bullet. easy on the top break. not enough smoke for it to be an issue, no pressure concerns, and just fun to shoot. also non corrosive, and clean up is a snap. __________________ The Forty-Four spoke and it sent lead and smoke And seventeen inches of flame. -Marty Robbins JM

November 18, 2002, 09:15 PM	#2
Old Fuff Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 237	I would be a bit cautious with that little top-break. The first question is: does it have positive cylinder stop cuts on the cylinder or not? If you can rotate the cylinder while the trigger is forward, or almost do so then the revolver probably shouldn’t be shot with smokeless powder. If it does have positive notches (like a modern S&W or Colt) then very light loads may be O.K. Remember a lot of the loading data is based on old balloon-head cases rather them modern solid-head ones. The latter have less capacity so a given charge of smokeless powder will generate more pressure, all other things being equal. Your choice of using hollow-based 148 gr wadcutters is a good idea, but don’t make the mistake of deep seating them. Overall cartridge length should be about the same as a standard 146 gr. roundnose. One of my older reloading books shows 2gr of Bullseye behind a 147 gr. bullet for 710 FPS out of a 3 ½” barrel. This was likely using balloon-head cases so I would cut that load to 1.5 grs. and perhaps work up to 1.7 grs. Another option would be to use a black powder substitute such as Hodgdon’s “Pistol.” All of this is not to say you shouldn’t shoot it, but simply to point out that given the gun’s likely age, which could easily be a century or more (most of them were made during the 1890’s through the early 1900’s) you need to use extra care.

November 19, 2002, 06:53 PM	#4
dntorbert Member Join Date: July 20, 2001 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 78	It does have the notches and postive lockup like you mention and I am looking for a very light load so should be ok. If any thing a 148grn hbwc should have less pressure that a 146 grain rn loaded to same oal if my thinking is straight so I will probably start with 3/4 load for that and see if i can get bullets to stabalize.

November 19, 2002, 08:18 PM	#5
Old Fuff Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 237	Jjmogan64 has a good suggestion. Goex Clear Shot is a black powder subsitute that generates very low pressures. If you don't want to go his way start with about 1.5 grains of Bullseye and don't exceed 2.0 grains. I think you will end up with something around 600 FPS, and given the age, quality, and design of the gun you don't want more then that. Have fun.

November 24, 2002, 07:17 PM	#6
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have many antique break top revolvers in 38S&W. Most are Iver Johnson, but one is an H&R. I have overloaded them to see what would happen. Using 158gr .357" JHP bullets and Blue Dot, I went past 9mm loads and at the top of 38 Super +P loads I got a loose latch. The "T" shaped latch on the top strap of the revolver has a hole in it. This eye is captured with a screw that the latch rotates about. I showed this to an old gun designer and told him I had gone too high in pressure. He corrected me and said there were no direct pressure stresses on the latch. He said only recoil forces on the mass of the barrel and bullet friction stretch the latch. That took many hours of concentration to get my mind around, but now I see it. Most people can't. Now I use soft lead bullets and light loads in break top revolvers. When I use round lead balls, I cookie cutter poly wads with the case mouth over the powder and under the ball. 2 gr of Bullsye or 4 gr of Unique are good with either a 158 gr soft lead bullet or soft lead ball.

November 27, 2002, 03:14 PM	#7
dntorbert Member Join Date: July 20, 2001 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 78	I loaded up about 20 rounds of 38s&w with 1.5 grns of bullesye and the 148 grain hbwc and they at least don't keyhole now but when I tested them I had limited time on a busy range so haven't really been able to ring them out yet. Next I think I will experiment with tumble lubing them to cut down on leading.

November 28, 2002, 05:57 PM	#8
gordo b. Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2002 Location: Peoples republik of Calif. Posts: 961	Ill have to try this in my 100% closed top Merwin&Hulbert!