Ghost guns and gun tracing?

[Prof Young]

Help me out here. I'm asking all this because I'm having "conversations" with people about "ghost" guns.

The manufacturer has to keep records as to what retailer a gun was initially sold? Right?

And that retailer has to keep records about to whom that gun was sold? Right?

And if law enforcement shows up with a warrant, that retailer must reveal who they sold it to? Is that correct?

Assuming all the above is correct, is this all federal law?

Life is good
Prof Young

[Pistoler0]

It is Federal law,

but "ghost guns" (up until today) do not fall within the definition of "firearm" thus none of that applies.

[KyJim]

To clarify, a "ghost gun" is one that a person makes himself. They usually start with the receiver, the part that is considered to be the firearm, partially made by a manufacturer or machine shop. Up until now, it could be 80% completed without being considered a firearm.

After completing the receiver, the hobbyist then completes the remainder of the gun and it is a completely functional firearm. And it doesn't have to have a serial number. Of course, someone deliberately doing this to resell to others as a business is a non-licensed dealer and in violation of law.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Piroler0

It is Federal law,

but "ghost guns" (up until today) do not fall within the definition of "firearm" thus none of that applies.

"Ghost guns" still don't fall within the legal definition of a "firearm." All this regulation of so-called "ghost guns" is going to massively expand the paperwork burden for FFLs and the BATFE, without making much difference at all in the crime rate. In the end, hobbyists will just stop building guns from 80% receivers and move on to guns they can make from scratch.

It's not rocket science. For the most part, as one example, 1911s are usually made from either forgings or investment castings. However, the maker of the most expensive [semi] mass production 1911s, Cabot Guns, makes their guns from raw steel ingots. It's true subtractive manufacturing. They start with a solid block of steel and end up with a $5,000 1911. A couple of years ago they made a 1911 out of a chunk of meteorite. If you have a milling machine and you know how to use it, it's not all that difficult. (Says me, who doesn't have a milling machine and doesn't know how to use one.)

And the crooks and gang bangers will continue to buy their guns on dark street corners, late at night.

[Ingramite]

How about a rubber band gun that I use to shoot ghosts?
I hate to get rid of it.
I took all of those ghost carcasses hanging out on the front gate with my RBG.

[Prof Young]

Thanks for the info. My "conversation" has been more about the trace-ability of any gun. Seems to me that after the gun has left the ownership of the original buyer it gets harder to trace. In IL, a record of private sales has to be kept for ten years. When I sell a gun I do it through a local FFL, partly to give them the business and partly cause I don't like selling a firearm to a stranger and partly because the ISP has to approve the sale via FOID card numbers regardless.

Yeah, I know what a "ghost" gun is. Actually investigated making an AK 47 (just because I thought it would be fun to have one) and then discovered you don't really save $$$ when you make your own.

Life is good
Prof Young

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

Thanks for the info. My "conversation" has been more about the trace-ability of any gun. Seems to me that after the gun has left the ownership of the original buyer it gets harder to trace.

no it only gets longer to trace.
If were talking about the traceability of any gun then we should leave out ghost guns, because those arent traceable.
A store bought gun is regardless of how many times its changed hands (hence the longer part).

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

"Ghost guns" still don't fall within the legal definition of a "firearm." All this regulation of so-called "ghost guns" is going to massively expand the paperwork burden for FFLs and the BATFE, without making much difference at all in the crime rate. In the end, hobbyists will just stop building guns from 80% receivers and move on to guns they can make from scratch.

It's not rocket science. For the most part, as one example, 1911s are usually made from either forgings or investment castings. However, the maker of the most expensive [semi] mass production 1911s, Cabot Guns, makes their guns from raw steel ingots. It's true subtractive manufacturing. They start with a solid block of steel and end up with a $5,000 1911. A couple of years ago they made a 1911 out of a chunk of meteorite. If you have a milling machine and you know how to use it, it's not all that difficult. (Says me, who doesn't have a milling machine and doesn't know how to use one.)

And the crooks and gang bangers will continue to buy their guns on dark street corners, late at night.

agree with all of this, and to add to it the 3D printing technology will even replace milling machine technology at a fraction of the tooling investment cost. Even if they banned personal fabrication of guns from scratch or kits (0% receivers) the problem is 3D printers are a fraction of the cost and experience required of operating milling machines and the gun files are already out there. The problem is data wants to be free, once its out there you cant take it back. The future of the gun control debate is going to get very interesting, when ghost guns first came out as kits (80%...) my first thought was it wont be long till then ban them but as the 3D printing technology has improves where anyone can buy a printer I realize its impossible to ban the data to print a gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Koda94

A store bought gun is [traceable] regardless of how many times its changed hands (hence the longer part).

Perhaps in your state. In many states face-to-face sales of long guns are perfectly legal, with no paperwork and no paper trail. I'm not certain, but I believe the same is true for many states with regard to handguns.

For a great many firearms -- all perfectly legal -- a trace will go from the serial number to the manufacturer to the distributor to the FFL who first sold it ... and that's where the trace ends. I firearm could have been sold and resold ten times since the first retail purchase, with no paper trail.

Unfortunately, this is no longer true in my state. I can remember when it was true for long guns, and there was a time when it was also true for handguns.

Further, once a firearm has been stolen there is no way to trace it. In any state.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Perhaps in your state. In many states face-to-face sales of long guns are perfectly legal, with no paperwork and no paper trail. I'm not certain, but I believe the same is true for many states with regard to handguns.

For a great many firearms -- all perfectly legal -- a trace will go from the serial number to the manufacturer to the distributor to the FFL who first sold it ... and that's where the trace ends. I firearm could have been sold and resold ten times since the first retail purchase, with no paper trail.

Unfortunately, this is no longer true in my state. I can remember when it was true for long guns, and there was a time when it was also true for handguns.

Further, once a firearm has been stolen there is no way to trace it. In any state.

all true, and agree....
but my understanding is its only a few states now in a minority that still allow private sales only without a background check (registration) for guns. I didnt know that long guns were treated different in regards to background checks (only age...). If I understand correctly, this is the last "loophole" Biden is trying to close with federal background checks...

Otherwise, once the FFL trace ends... that last seller is in hot water if his gun turns up in a crime-scene. One would be... "very unaware" (to put it nicely) to sell a gun they acquired thru an FFL to a private sale without demanding a background check.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Koda94

Otherwise, once the FFL trace ends... that last seller is in hot water if his gun turns up in a crime-scene. One would be... "very unaware" (to put it nicely) to sell a gun they acquired thru an FFL to a private sale without demanding a background check.

If you go back through years of posts and threads on this site, you'll find a number that agree with you, and probably an equal number that disagree. A great many people don't think the government should have any say in who they buy a gun from or who they sell it to. I've seen any number of such discussions in which people have stated that if the buyer can show a permit, they're good to go.

And why shouldn't they be? These aren't "irresponsible" gun owners who don't care if they're selling to a criminal. They'll ask for a permit. If the buyer has a permit to carry a handgun, he/she isn't a prohibited person. What more should we need to know?

Reference (as of 2019): https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/con...-by-state.html

28 states do not require background checks for private sales. That's hardly a minority. And some of the other states require background checks only for handguns and/or "assault weapons."

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

If you go back through years of posts and threads on this site, you'll find a number that agree with you, and probably an equal number that disagree. A great many people don't think the government should have any say in who they buy a gun from or who they sell it to. I've seen any number of such discussions in which people have stated that if the buyer can show a permit, they're good to go.

And why shouldn't they be? These aren't "irresponsible" gun owners who don't care if they're selling to a criminal. They'll ask for a permit. If the buyer has a permit to carry a handgun, he/she isn't a prohibited person. What more should we need to know?

Reference (as of 2019): https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/con...-by-state.html

28 states do not require background checks for private sales. That's hardly a minority. And some of the other states require background checks only for handguns and/or "assault weapons."

To clarify my position I support constitutional carry and no background checks, and agree with you on private sales. I was just referring to the current situation, at least in most states... in regards to the OPs subject of traceability.
That said, my position on gun control would be different, maybe even supportive of some ideas if the gun control communities strategy wasnt a prohibition based model. Their message is very clear of their end goal and as long as it is I will not support any further gun control laws, any policy that is prohibition based, or lays a foundation for one (registration).

[Nathan]

Assuming all the above is correct, is this all federal law?

I don’t think a warrant is required.

In many states, guns can be bought & sold privately without record.

“Ghost gun” is a political term. Many like minded people have misused the term so much, I’ll bet if you asked 10 people you would get answers like:
-Guns people assemble at home from parts which are untraceable.
-Guns which come “nowhere” and are easily made by gangs.
-Guns which aren’t licensed and tracked like gps or something.
-Guns which shoot by themselves.
-Fully automatic weapons of war with high capacity clips.

What they are by the generally accepted definition of experts are guns which were manufactured legally or illegally without serial numbers which can be theoretically be paper tracked. Legal guns under this might be made from billet by the original owner up through 80% starting point. Also, some guns made before serial number requirements are ghost guns, I suppose. Last, anybody with a file can make an illegal ghost gun.

None of these have any impact on the real number one problem which is murder/crime in poor communities who distrust the politicians they elect that they generally support the criminal instead of reporting to authorities. Sadly, they only want to talk about crime occurring in more affluent schools/communities (mass shootings) and the threats to extremely affluent people whose protection teams cannot effectively defend against rifle fire.

[44 AMP]

Consider this, in relation to the current "ghost gun" hype...
(and for this discussion, lets consider a "ghost gun" a firearm made/assembled at home, by a private citizen who does not have a Federal License to make or to sell firearms)

1) for nearly a century Federal law has allowed the individual to create a firearm themselves, at home, for their own personal use, with no license or registration requirements. NONE. THAT IS THE LAW, and has been for a loooong time.

2) The person who made that gun at home (today being called a ghost gun) has always been allowed to sell it or trade it, or give it away, when they got tired of it. This is also part of the long existing law. WHEN the maker does that, the "ghost gun" is required to have a serial # put on it, and registered with the Federal govt the same way all gunmakers are required to do. Again, part of the long existing law.

Home "manufacturers" are NOT allowed to make their guns for sale. Doing that requires Fed licenses for manufacture, and for being engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. YET AGAIN, something covered in existing law.

Understand this, the guy who builds a dozen AR variants at home, unregistered, for his own personal use IS complying with the law. If he sells one or two or even all of them months or years later, he is complying with the law, PROVIDED that at the time of sale those guns meet the same requirements as commercially produced firearms (ser# and registration with the Fed,etc.) If he does not do that, then he is an illegal firearms manufacturer and trafficker, breaking several existing Federal laws.

Now, on to the big talking point about ghost guns, their being "untraceable".
This is BS. Or, more properly it a PARTIAL TRUTH.

First point, in order to trace any gun, the police (ATF etc.) have to have it. That means they have to have it in their hands, having recovered it from a crime scene, or taking it from a suspect, etc.

That means they know where they got it, and why. That's step one. After that, they want to know where it came from, and how it got to where they got it. And that's the rub. Regular, legal guns will (since 1968) have a serial # that the cops can trace from the manufacturer to some point of sale. They can do this by looking at records. They may not even have to get out of their chair to do it. They may be able to trace it from the maker to a jobber, to an FFL dealer right from their computer desk, and then have to go to the FFL's location and look at their paper records (dealer bound book, and 4473 forms) to find who purchased it.

After that, it becomes a matter of field investigation. Ghost guns with no serial# are NOT "untraceable". What they are is "not as easily traceable" as regular ones, essentially requiring the trace to be all field investigation.

Not intending to bash anyone, but what this means is that to trace a ghost gun, cops have to get off their butts and do the difficult investigative work to find the answers, instead of just being able to look up records.

they have the gun in question, they know who they took if from, and why. They can find out where that person got it, but it takes work, and time, and isn't easy. They may have to trace it through many people, without a paper trail to guide them, to find its actual origin. Difficult, and in some cases, no doubt they will not be successful, but as a general thing, not impossible.

They can trace illegal drugs back to their suppliers, I see no reason they can't do that with illegal guns.

Complicating the matter is the value of knowing where the gun originated and how it got to the person it was taken from, vs. the amount of time and police resources required to actually do it.

[Koda94]

I thought that you could sell a ghost gun without a serial number, the FFL just puts "none" or N/A on the 4473 and does the background check?

Im not worried about a lawful person building a gun, but how does the law "trace" a ghost guns origin if it was built by a prohibited person? And what difference would it make? As far as I know its impossible to trace a ghost gun.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

Help me out here. I'm asking all this because I'm having "conversations" with people about "ghost" guns.

The manufacturer has to keep records as to what retailer a gun was initially sold? Right?

And that retailer has to keep records about to whom that gun was sold? Right?

And if law enforcement shows up with a warrant, that retailer must reveal who they sold it to? Is that correct?

Assuming all the above is correct, is this all federal law?

Life is good
Prof Young

I'm not sure what this has to do with ghost guns.

Law Enforcement as in BATF? Usually, it is a phone call and not a warrant.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by KyJim

To clarify, a "ghost gun" is one that a person makes himself. They usually start with the receiver, the part that is considered to be the firearm, partially made by a manufacturer or machine shop. Up until now, it could be 80% completed without being considered a firearm.

After completing the receiver, the hobbyist then completes the remainder of the gun and it is a completely functional firearm. And it doesn't have to have a serial number. Of course, someone deliberately doing this to resell to others as a business is a non-licensed dealer and in violation of law.

From my understanding, it doesn't need a serial number unless the maker/owner decides to sell it.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

Thanks for the info. My "conversation" has been more about the trace-ability of any gun. Seems to me that after the gun has left the ownership of the original buyer it gets harder to trace. In IL, a record of private sales has to be kept for ten years. When I sell a gun I do it through a local FFL, partly to give them the business and partly cause I don't like selling a firearm to a stranger and partly because the ISP has to approve the sale via FOID card numbers regardless.

Yeah, I know what a "ghost" gun is. Actually investigated making an AK 47 (just because I thought it would be fun to have one) and then discovered you don't really save $$$ when you make your own.

Life is good
Prof Young

Who cares? The Feds usually don't prosecute illegal sales/transfers even when they can trace them. When they do, they plea bargain the charge or charge a minor fine; to be honest, that is why criminals have such an easy time getting firearms; it's like the government's way of allowing crime to continue.

[101combatvet]

A while back Delaware enacted a law that if a firearm was stolen from your home because it wasn't probably secured that it would be considered a crime for the owner, Senate Bill 16 (2013). "Senate Bill 16 will require gun owners to report the loss or theft of their firearm to police within 7 days of discovering the weapon is missing. Violators will be subject to a fine of $75-$100 for a first offense and a fine of $100-$250 for a second offense. A third offense is a class G felony. The bill is one of the gun safety measures proposed by Gov. Markell, Lt. Gov. Denn and Attorney General Biden."

Probably a good time to throw this out there.

https://news.yahoo.com/secret-agents...122021425.html

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Koda94

I thought that you could sell a ghost gun without a serial number, the FFL just puts "none" or N/A on the 4473 and does the background check?

Correct.

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

From my understanding, it doesn't need a serial number unless the maker/owner decides to sell it.

It doesn't need a serial number even then.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...emade-firearm/

The relevant law is U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts. Here's the link:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

And then there's 27 CFR § 478.92:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...-sec478-92.xml

By both title and text, the CFR applies to licensed manufacturers and importers. If you can find where it requires a non-licensee to put a serial number on a firearm, please tell us what section that's in. I couldn't find it.

[ghbucky]

Huh.. I thought it was illegal to transfer a non-serial gun. It had to be serialized?

Seems there is a lot of confusion over this.

[Aguila Blanca]

Yes, there is a lot of confusion. No, it is not illegal to transfer a firearm that doesn't have a serial number.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Correct.


It doesn't need a serial number even then.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...emade-firearm/

The relevant law is U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts. Here's the link:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

And then there's 27 CFR § 478.92:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...-sec478-92.xml

By both title and text, the CFR applies to licensed manufacturers and importers. If you can find where it requires a non-licensee to put a serial number on a firearm, please tell us what section that's in. I couldn't find it.

Maybe, it looks like the links you provided don't address ghost guns specifically except the article.

[stagpanther]

The serialization requirements are within the context of what constitutes a manufacturer of firearms. Generally speaking this involves anyone--individual, group business or otherwise who derives a "meaningful financial benefit" from manufacturing a firearm, which is generally defined making the receiver capable of causing an "explosion" that drives a projectile from it.

Bubba Joe is not required--as of now--to serialize a gun they have assembled for the intent of their own personal use. If later on they decide they want to give it to a friend or sell it, that also does not--at present--require serialization or ffl transfer.

There is no time limit between transfer/sales--the determining factor--a rather vaguely defined one--is whether you derive meaningful income/benefit on those transfers/sales. This can include moneyless quid pro quo; building weapons and giving them away for nothing to people who have done favors for you. If you do this only occasionally and derive little to no income/benefit, then you probably will have little to worry about. I routinely use FFL for transfers whether I have to or not.If the ultimate use of the weapon ends up in a crime, things can go south for you if the gun ultimately is connected to you as the original transfer receiver or manufacturer of the weapon.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

Maybe, it looks like the links you provided don't address ghost guns specifically except the article.

That's because laws aren't generally written to tell us what IS legal, they are written to tell us what isn't legal. If it's not illegal ... it's legal.

The CFR on serialization of firearms specifically refers to "licensed" manufacturers and importers. John Doe making a Polymer 80 in his basement on Friday night isn't a licensed manufacturer, so the law doesn't apply to him.