The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 3, 2017, 02:48 PM   #76
mk70ss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,593
The perfect fighting revolver will be a different make, model, caliber, barrel length, type of sights, etc for each individual. While an 8 shot .22 may be ideal for an 80 year old elderly person that has arthritis and very weak grip strength, a 6 inch model 29 .44 magnum may ideal for a 350 pound, 25 year old farmhand.

There is no ONE perfect gun for everyone. I personally love the OP's custom piece and would be proud to own and carry it. It suits me just fine.
__________________
Say when.....
mk70ss is offline  
Old May 3, 2017, 05:04 PM   #77
Super Sneaky Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 1,246
Quote:
Why not?

I can't think of a single gun that I would consider a "fighting semi-auto" that DOESN"T have adjustable sights.

Is there any reason that a "fighting revolver" should not have adjustable sights but a "fighting semi-auto" should?
You mean like a mil spec 1911 with it's staked front and dovetailed rear? Or the Beretta 92 or the mil spec Hi-Power? These weapons come in both TARGET versions with adjustable sights and COMBAT semi-fixed sighted versions for fighting.

Even military rifles like the M4 and AKM have heavy robust protection over their sights.

Try dropping your fancy S&W on it's rear sight and see what happens to the thin flimsy rear blade and tiny finely threaded screws.

I could drag my M10 with fixed sights behind my car on a rope and it would still hold zero.
Super Sneaky Steve is offline  
Old May 3, 2017, 05:28 PM   #78
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,583
The perfect fighting revolver is the one that John Wayne used in his movies. It held an unlimited number of rounds - well over 12 and sometimes he would fire 17 rounds without reloading - the bullets were obviously controlled to hit the correct target - he could shoot while at a full gallop and hit the bad guy that was a quarter mile away galloping on his horse. The gun was a 45 caliber and had no recoil.
That is the perfect fighting revolver.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 07:48 AM   #79
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by super sneaky steve
These weapons come in both TARGET versions with adjustable sights and COMBAT semi-fixed sighted versions for fighting.....
Try dropping your fancy S&W on it's rear sight and see what happens to the thin flimsy rear blade and tiny finely threaded screws.
What flimsy rear blade and tiny screws?

What's the difference between a "COMBAT semi-fixed version for fighting" (fancy words for drift-adjustable) semi-auto rear sight and a drift-adjustable revolver sight?


Last edited by 45_auto; May 4, 2017 at 07:57 AM.
45_auto is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 09:04 AM   #80
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
"I can't think of a single gun that I would consider a "fighting semi-auto" that DOESN"T have adjustable sights."

Really?

I can think of many...

Browning Hi Power

HK P7

Kahr K9

S&W 4506

A huge number of M1911 variants.

Sig P220

A gazillion different model Glocks

The list goes on and on and on.

I don't view the type of sights or the fact that they can/cannot be adjusted as being a critical quality of a fighting revolver or semi-auto.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 10:10 AM   #81
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
I can think of many...
Really? Any documentation that you can reference?

Quote:
Browning Hi Power
Page 25, Browning Hi-Power manual:

Quote:
FIXED SIGHTS
Some Hi Power pistols are equipped with a fixed front sight blade and
a drift adjustable rear sight. No adjustment of the front sight is
necessary. Rear sight adjustment is a process of trial and error.
http://www.browning.com/content/dam/...r%20OM_WEB.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
HK P7
Page 8, HK P7 manual:

Quote:
The rear sight can be adjusted for windage by loosening the set screw, moving the sight to the right or left, depending on the desired shot placement, and tightening the set screw.
http://hkp7.com/PDF/p7-manual.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
Kahr K9
Kahr K9 manual, page 15:

Quote:
Both the front and rear sights are held in place
by the tight fit of the sight to the dovetail. On
the CT, CW and CM Series the polymer front
sight is pinned into the slide and cannot be
moved. Windage (side to side) adjustments are
made by pressing the rear sight in the direction
that you want the bullet placement to move.
https://www.kahr.com/pdf/kahrmanual.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
S&W 4506
S&W 4506 manual, page 25:

Quote:
Certain model S&W pistols are equipped with a Fixed Rear Sight that is adjustable for windage only. To adjust, move the rear sight in the direction you wish the group to move on the target.
https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sit...s_10-01-15.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
A huge number of M1911 variants.
Name the 1911, I'll send you a link to the manual that will tell you how to adjust the drift adjustable rear sights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
Sig P220
Sig 220 manual, page 47:

Quote:
The SIG SAUER pistol is equipped with drift adjustable fixed sights which have proven their worth under severe conditions....Change windage by moving the rear sight either to the left or right in its dovetail.
https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/...assic_Line.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Irwin
A gazillion different model Glocks
Name the Glock, I'll send you a gazillion links to the manual that will tell you how to adjust the drift adjustable rear sights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Irwin
The list goes on and on and on.
Care to try again? Until you get down to the pocket pistol category with the rear sight groove machined into the slide, every serious combat (military/police issue) semi-auto will have drift-adjustable rear sights.
45_auto is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 10:45 AM   #82
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
"Really? Any documentation that you can reference?"

Hum... I think we're working from differing opinions on what constitutes adjustable sights.

In the context of this discussion it was apparent to me, and remains apparent to me, that adjustable meant sights that can be adjusted both for windage AND elevation in the same context as revolvers such as the Model 19.

Given that few full-size semi-automatics have ever been manufactured with forged-in-frame non-adjustable sights, the discussion of windage only sights is really moot and inconsequential.

One could just as logically say that ALL revolver sights, even those that are forged in frame, are adjustable as long as you have a file and a TIG welder.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:06 AM   #83
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,552
OK, point made.

IMO... and it is only my opinion... if I knew for a fact that I was going to be in a fight for my life in the next few minutes and my only choice was "what revolver?" I can't think of a better choice than the S&W M58. A police style rugged beast in .41 Magnum. I would want it loaded up with a medium power expanding bullet not full power hunting rounds. That big hoss would feel mighty comforting... kind of like my 5.5" Ruger Redhawk in .41 Magnum.

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:20 AM   #84
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
I'd also be comfortable picking my Model 58.

But, if I were to go with the larger N frame over the K frame, I'd go with my 4" Model 28 and full-bore .357 Magnum loads like the 125-gr. Remington Golden Saber.

Larger, heavier N frame will soak up a lot of the recoil generated by the .357 Magnum cartridge. It will still be pretty stout, but not as stout, and more controllable, than in a Model 19.


That said, I have a pretty decent 210-gr. lead load for my Model 58 using WW 231 powder. Gives me about 1000 fps, IIRC.

Does GREAT on bowling pins. I suspect that it would be a good defensive load using an FBI HP-type bullet, as well.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:22 AM   #85
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
Any dovetail sight I had would require a gunsmith to change the windage. To me, unless it offers a screwdriver slot, windage-only or elevation as well, it's not "adjustable", although not necessarily fixed. There is a middle ground of not cast-in-frame. I have one gun that has windage only and offers a screw adjustment. That is all I need and, since it is better than fixed sights, is adjustable to me.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter.
Real Gun is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:23 AM   #86
Danoobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2017
Posts: 351
Sooo, Real Gun, help me out, here, because I'm a bit slow. You want a
gun which isn't a concealed carry gun, because they aren't effective as
a "fighting revolver". But you know in advance you are going to be in a
gunfight,in which case, I would assume you are bringing a rifle, considering
you have knowledge of this gun fight, beforehand.

SO, you must conceal your rather mid-sized side-arm. In order to transport
it to this gun fight.

Tell me, where and when do these "gun fights" occur, and what do you do,
in order to conceal your rifle, in order to get it there?
Danoobie is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:23 AM   #87
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
What?

You don't carry a delrin rod and a smackhammer with you everywhere you go?
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:30 AM   #88
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
"Tell me, where and when do these "gun fights" occur,"

Over there, of course!

"and what do you do, in order to conceal your rifle, in order to get it there?"

I don't know about him, but I take the bus.


True story...

My former Father in Law, who was on active duty in the AF in the 1950s, was in Manhattan and bought himself a Winchester Model 12 at one of the surplus shops that sold long guns before NYC went all prohibitiony.

Only, he didn't buy a case to go with it, so he took the NYC subway to get to Grand Central Station to get to the Long Island Railroad to get home.

The only person who batted an eye the entire trip was the LIRR conductor, who made a pointed comment about stupid Air Force guy not knowing enough to put his gun in a case to protect the finish....
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:42 AM   #89
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
Quote:
What?

You don't carry a delrin rod and a smackhammer with you everywhere you go?
I could, actually. I already have a bag of gear that goes to every range trip. It includes a tack hammer and squib rods, no Delrin. I am still not messing with the sights without a discussion with my gunsmith. I generally don't bubba my guns.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter.
Real Gun is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:44 AM   #90
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
I have adjusted many windage-only sights on semi-autos over the years. I don't need a gunsmith to be able to tell me how to do that.

There was only one that defeated me, and that one gave my gunsmith a lot of trouble, too, as the sight was rusted in place.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 11:48 AM   #91
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
I'm just not a real man, I guess. The thing about my gunsmith is that he is such a good shot that he can determine how to set the sight with only a few cartridges. Personally, I can only say generally where the groups tend to center, after many shots.

Funny, I just received a note about this in email.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter.

Last edited by Real Gun; May 4, 2017 at 12:18 PM.
Real Gun is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 12:33 PM   #92
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
"I'm just not a real man"

Oh please, I am not questioning your manhood, and I apologize if it appeared I was doing so, as this has nothing to do with presence or absence of theoretical dangly bits...

If you're not comfortable adjusting your own sights, that's perfectly fine. More than one person has gotten in way over his head over the years by being comfortable with the concept of doing something, but not understanding the mechanics of it, how it should be done, etc. Trust me, I speak from experience on that point.

People who think they know all there is about working on an S&W revolver and start by prying the sideplate off with a screwdriver are a prime example. Fortunately I'm not guilty of that particular fox paw.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 12:45 PM   #93
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
Sounds like we were talking at cross-purposes, Mike!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin
One could just as logically say that ALL revolver sights, even those that are forged in frame, are adjustable as long as you have a file and a TIG welder.
I'd like to see the owner's manual that instructs them on how to do that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by real gun
The thing about my gunsmith is that he is such a good shot that he can determine how to set the sight with only a few cartridges.
He can determine how to set the sights for HIS stance, grip, sight picture, etc, in a few shots.

Chances are that if it's truly zeroed for him then it's not for you.

My experience has been that the vast majority of handgun shooters are not good enough to worry about adjusting the sights anyway. Half a dozen 6" diameter plates at 25 yards with unlimited time seems to be an almost insurmountable challenge for most.

Last edited by 45_auto; May 4, 2017 at 12:58 PM.
45_auto is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 01:09 PM   #94
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,511
I'd use my revolver to fight my way to my 1911.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 01:12 PM   #95
SaxonPig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2006
Posts: 1,900
Some points that have been raised.

"Fighting revolver." To me this would be any revolver carried in harm's way.

"Ideal" is highly subjective and based on individual needs and preferences.

I would tend to agree the best choice would have fixed sights. No doubt adjustable would be more accurate but with a combat arm you make compromises in the interest of reliability and durability. Adjustable sights add to the bulk and complexity of what should be streamlined and simple to work best. Just my opinion.

I don't know what I consider "ideal." Not even sure which of my revolvers would come closest to that standard.

Off the top of my head I think a medium frame DA only model with no hammer spur, fixed sights, and a 4" barrel. Heavy barrel would be best on all counts except weight. Have to choose priorities. I would think the biggest caliber the shooter could handle in rapid DA mode effectively. I know that for me that removes the 357 Magnum from contention because recoil prevents me from shooting accurate and fast DA strings.
SaxonPig is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 02:33 PM   #96
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,700
If you have a fixed sight revolver properly zeroed for you and you can ensure a steady supply of the ammunition it prefers, then that is ideal. I recall Skeeer Skelton wrote that all fixed sighted revolvers shot about an inch left for him.
Charlie Askins said he made a tool to adjust windage on the Border Patrol's Colt New Services though I don't recall him giving any specifics.
I have both the Dan Wesson M-12 and M-15, they will do in a pinch.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 02:53 PM   #97
mk70ss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,593
While you all keep on about what actually constitutes an adjustable sight....my 4 inch Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt sits securely in my nightstand ready for anything that ain't welcome on my ranch. Of course I will only need it for a few seconds until I reach the 12 gauge pump shotgun with nightsights and extended mag tube loaded with 00 buck.............
__________________
Say when.....
mk70ss is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 03:08 PM   #98
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
Quote:
He can determine how to set the sights for HIS stance, grip, sight picture, etc, in a few shots.

Chances are that if it's truly zeroed for him then it's not for you.

My experience has been that the vast majority of handgun shooters are not good enough to worry about adjusting the sights anyway. Half a dozen 6" diameter plates at 25 yards with unlimited time seems to be an almost insurmountable challenge for most.
I accept your point and did already consider that. I just tell him where it is grouping for me and we figure it out...maybe a little trial and error. I am a pretty fair shot, thank you.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter.
Real Gun is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 03:45 PM   #99
RoughDivider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2014
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 152
To break the big discusssions, I'd take a S&W M&P R8, kinda dig the black finish, and I happen to think 5" barrels look the best.
RoughDivider is offline  
Old May 4, 2017, 05:10 PM   #100
SaxonPig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2006
Posts: 1,900
I realize that my gut reaction was correct. I don't own the perfect fighting revolver. Closest I come is this Model 10-7 with a 4" barrel. Swap the ivories for some checkered walnut and remove the hammer spur and it would do. If I could use my 38 Special carry load of a 125 JHP at 1150 FPS I would feel confident in its stopping power.

Pretty simple, huh? Maybe S&W knew what they were doing when they designed the 4" Model 10. Maybe all those tens of thousands of cops who packed one back in the day knew what they were doing, too.

SaxonPig is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08741 seconds with 9 queries