Public Records denied in Texas by Attorney General Greg Abbott

Doug.38PR · February 26, 2007, 08:00 PM

http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6145421&nav=2FH5

I am a Petroleum Landman. This is denying public access to public records. While SS # should never have been used for ID purposes (that, I believe, is in fact illegal as many of the older SS cards state on them) and certainly should not be on public record, the fact is they are and this is the attorney general breaking the law as far as I am concerned because they are denying access to public records. Some counties are allowing some people through after going through red tape as the article states but others have the entire courthouse shut down.

Don H · February 26, 2007, 10:04 PM

Is there any law that states exactly how access to public records is to be provided? If not, then what law is being broken by changing the access procedures?

Doug.38PR · February 26, 2007, 10:19 PM

Public Records are open to the public. That's why they are called public records.

Most district or county judges will give county clerks hades if you go upstairs and report that one will not pull a physical document for you (in other words if they say, "you can only look it up on computer") or if they in any way deny you access to public records.

Some courthouses have shut down altogether. A fellow landman I know told me Rusk County courthouse had armed guards around it.

But even if you do go through these procedures, it would take you 10 years to do any kind of research if you could do it at all. It is restricting access to PUBLIC information.

This is going to hurt the entire state. It affects so many areas of life. Oil & Gas business, lawyers, title companies, real estate companies, etc. What if other state attorney generals decide to do this?

Don H · February 26, 2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Public Records are open to the public. That's why they are called public records.

I understand that BUT, if there is nothing in the law spelling out just what "open to the public" means, you're SOL. Does "open to the public" mean 24 hours a day, 12 hours a day, when the courthouse is open, 1 day a month? Access to public records is a kind of vague term that seems to be open to interpretation. If it's not defined in the law, you've got an uphill battle going here. Surely, with an issue of this magnitude, it will end up in the courts if the AG doesn't reconsider.

Doug.38PR · February 27, 2007, 02:48 AM

Technically, I guess you have a point there, but it's splitting hairs on the part of the AG if he makes such a case.
The AAPL and other organizations are already challenging this. With as many people as this affects (pretty much everyone is affected to some degree or another) this is pure insanity.

Erich · February 27, 2007, 11:21 AM

I'm the lawyer who deals with public records requests for my state department. I'd be shocked if most of the questions being asked here aren't plainly addressed in the Texas FOIA/IPRA act; the act additionally probably specifies the remedies if a violation is alleged.

As far as the specific article Doug references, I would tend to think that the Attorney General's opinion might be more reasoned from a legal standpoint than that of some tv reporter, even if she is from the cosmopolitan Lufkin/Nacogdoches area.

If Doug is concerned that the AG is doing something unethical, there are certainly avenues available to develop such a claim.

But what does any of this have to do with guns?

hoghunting · February 27, 2007, 11:26 AM

Doug,

Would you like your name, address, city, and state and your Social Security on documents for public access? If identity theft doesn't bother you, it does many others.

Doug.38PR · February 27, 2007, 11:38 AM

No I wouldn't want it on public documents. Legally, it isn't supposed to be used for identification purposes (get say your dad's social security card, the older cards even say on the bottom in plain english "NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES") It is very dangerous. BUT 1) it's already been done, it is part of public record you can't shut down the entire state because of this. 2) the SS numbers that are on public documents are there voluntarily. For instance, in the past two years language on producers 88 standard leases have added language in bold print that lessors signing leases ARE NOT required to put SS or DL numbers on documents that are to be recorded for public record. But this is just emphasizing that it is not required. Prior to that language being put it, a lot of people wouldn't put their SS number for fear of it being on public record, when they didn't write it on the lease the company they signed with would just contact them on a later date and get it from them. The only reason it is on the document or given to the other party on the document is for the IRS.

Quote:

But what does any of this have to do with guns?

Nothing really, but then neither do a lot of other things we discuss in this forum. Illegal aliens, Jury Nullification for example are not directly gun related. But these things are Legal and Political.

February 26, 2007, 08:00 PM	#1
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Public Records denied in Texas by Attorney General Greg Abbott http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6145421&nav=2FH5 I am a Petroleum Landman. This is denying public access to public records. While SS # should never have been used for ID purposes (that, I believe, is in fact illegal as many of the older SS cards state on them) and certainly should not be on public record, the fact is they are and this is the attorney general breaking the law as far as I am concerned because they are denying access to public records. Some counties are allowing some people through after going through red tape as the article states but others have the entire courthouse shut down.

February 26, 2007, 10:04 PM	#2
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Is there any law that states exactly how access to public records is to be provided? If not, then what law is being broken by changing the access procedures?

February 26, 2007, 10:19 PM	#3
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Public Records are open to the public. That's why they are called public records. Most district or county judges will give county clerks hades if you go upstairs and report that one will not pull a physical document for you (in other words if they say, "you can only look it up on computer") or if they in any way deny you access to public records. Some courthouses have shut down altogether. A fellow landman I know told me Rusk County courthouse had armed guards around it. But even if you do go through these procedures, it would take you 10 years to do any kind of research if you could do it at all. It is restricting access to PUBLIC information. This is going to hurt the entire state. It affects so many areas of life. Oil & Gas business, lawyers, title companies, real estate companies, etc. What if other state attorney generals decide to do this?

February 27, 2007, 02:48 AM	#5
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Technically, I guess you have a point there, but it's splitting hairs on the part of the AG if he makes such a case. The AAPL and other organizations are already challenging this. With as many people as this affects (pretty much everyone is affected to some degree or another) this is pure insanity.

February 27, 2007, 11:21 AM	#6
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	I'm the lawyer who deals with public records requests for my state department. I'd be shocked if most of the questions being asked here aren't plainly addressed in the Texas FOIA/IPRA act; the act additionally probably specifies the remedies if a violation is alleged. As far as the specific article Doug references, I would tend to think that the Attorney General's opinion might be more reasoned from a legal standpoint than that of some tv reporter, even if she is from the cosmopolitan Lufkin/Nacogdoches area. If Doug is concerned that the AG is doing something unethical, there are certainly avenues available to develop such a claim. But what does any of this have to do with guns?

February 27, 2007, 11:26 AM	#7
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	Doug, Would you like your name, address, city, and state and your Social Security on documents for public access? If identity theft doesn't bother you, it does many others.