Your last gun fight..??

[Lohman446]

Or you suffer a malfunction........

I think this is drastically over stated.

Outside of induced malfunctions these are very rare and often enough corrected without dropping the magazine. The idea of dropping the magazine as step one is trained into people who carry a spare magazine.

Revolvers are not immune to failure and some failures, on either a semi or a revolver, are not fixable in a fight. Its fates way of telling you its time.

[Ben Dover]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Or you suffer a malfunction........

Take care of your weapon and your weapon will take care of you!

It was true when the Sgt Major said it, and it's true today.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think this is drastically over stated.



Outside of induced malfunctions these are very rare and often enough corrected without dropping the magazine. The idea of dropping the magazine as step one is trained into people who carry a spare magazine.



Revolvers are not immune to failure and some failures, on either a semi or a revolver, are not fixable in a fight. Its fates way of telling you its time.

It's not step one. I don't know anyone that teaches it as step one. If you have a failure to extract you're going to need to strip the magazine. You might be able to retain it, however.

This whole conversation has always been interesting to me. Everyone feels the need to validate why they carry what they do. But it doesn't end there. They also feel the need to explain why others are wrong or doing things unnecessarily. It's exhausting. Do we really need to replicate the already many page long thread from the Semi forum?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Nanuk]

I think this is drastically over stated.

I don't. I shoot competitively and see malfunctions all the time. People shooting in less than perfect form.

The idea of dropping the magazine as step one is trained into people who carry a spare magazine.

No, Its Tap, Rack, bang. But Mr Murphy is alive and well.

[Nanuk]

Take care of your weapon and your weapon will take care of you!

It was true when the Sgt Major said it, and it's true today.

Take all the care you want, when you can predict things like extractor failures let me know.

[Lohman446]

This whole conversation has always been interesting to me. Everyone feels the need to validate why they carry what they do. But it doesn't end there. They also feel the need to explain why others are wrong or doing things unnecessarily. It's exhausting. Do we really need to replicate the already many page long thread from the Semi forum?

It is an interesting thing to observe.

[OneFreeTexan]

Bamaranger, Agedwarior, Nanuk, All good answers, that really make sense,

Like I said at the beginning, the question was really tongue in cheek,,,I am totally surprised at some of the answers,,,not agreeing, nor disagreeing,,,,,,,just learning,,,

[Nanuk]

8 years ago a bugler broke into my house and i got a hold if my shotgun and blast a warning shot. he heard the shot, noticed it was a shotgun and he ran away so fast he left behind all his tools. the closest i have ever came to a gun fight.

Could have been scary, those Bugler's are something.

[TXAZ]

I get in gun fights twice a year, haven’t lost to a paper target at 1000 yards or steel at a mile yet.

[JohnKSa]

I don't. I shoot competitively and see malfunctions all the time. People shooting in less than perfect form.

I think that this is something that people fail to consider.

We shoot at the range when we're fresh, standing still, mostly using both hands. We get all set, then we do our shooting, finish our ammo and go home congratulating ourselves on how reliable our gun is.

Instead try practicing where you are not perfectly set to shoot, grab your gun in a hurry and fire it with one hand, possibly with an imperfect grip. Then consider that you may be injured when you need to use the gun, perhaps even injured in your hand or arm.

I was struck by how often guns seem to malfunction in gunfights based on video evidence and firsthand accounts. I'm not talking about garbage guns either--I'm talking about guns that are well thought of as being very reliable. I noticed that in the videos, guns were often shot one handed, from unorthodox positions, often while the shooter was in motion--not being perfectly set to shoot and it started to make sense.

Just because a carry gun is perfectly reliable at the range doesn't mean that it is acceptable to ignore the possibility of malfunctions. Even under the stress of competition malfunctions tend to increase and that is a pretty controlled situation. In a real gunfight things are much more chaotic.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Not my gunfight; but one I’m familiar with. The owner of a club had pulled up to open up his nightclub. Some young adults were sitting in a car waiting for the club to open up. They had gotten an early start on the evening and were chasing each other round the parking lot. One man threw a garbage can at the other, striking the club owner’s vehicle instead.

When the club owner protested, they came up to his door and got in his face. He showed the men his Glock 19 in an attempt to scare them off. Instead, it just enraged them as one of them pulled up his shirt to show a S&W Shield while the other tried to pull him from the vehicle.

The club owner then became engaged in a running gunfight as the two men ran around his car shooting at him with the single gun while he sat trapped in a sheet metal box. He fired 19 rounds total. He killed one of the attackers and wounded another. He then used the Glock to hold off a third person who jumped out of the car and tried to retrieve the Shield to continue the fight.

So, the club owner needed the two 15 round mags he was carrying to come out victorious and might have well had to keep shooting past 19 rounds. On the other hand, the seven round magazine in the Shield was enough for three people to use unsuccessfully.

[dyl]

Could have been scary, those Bugler's are something.

The bugler let out a high pitched toot and he scrambled back out the window.

This discussion reminds of something that I've heard about chemotherapy.
Along the lines of: There is an average statistic (when asking about survival rates). But you are not a statistic. This average was made up of people who live more years, and people who lived fewer years. There's no way of knowing which one you are.

While you can say most won't need more than 5, if you are one of the few that do, the statistic is of no comfort to you.

[OldMarksman]

Most non-leo engagements involve 2-3 rounds.

Source?

If it were true, what would it mean to us?

[USNRet93]

To be honest, you should train/prepare to dominate any fight you find yourself in.

Agree, but how do you do that? Even those who are faced with danger everyday are often 'not prepared'(LEO)..and they have lotsa guns and ammo at their disposal.

[zoo]

I would just as soon criminal predator(s) who are in the process of attempting to shoot me didn't get ANY kind of heads up that I'm preparing to shoot back.

[stagpanther]

When bullets have started flying in my direction while walking in the hood--running away as fast as I can to cover has served me well.

[Don Fischer]

Not a person here, not even those that have been in a gun fight have any idea what will happen next time. First thing to engage in a gun fight is your brain and think, how do I walk away from this! That bar owner that sounds like he yelled at the bad guy's probably started it right there weather he meant to or not. Let's see there were three of them playing pretty recklessly. He probably felt safe because he had a gun. Wonder what he'd have done if he hadn't had a gun? Probably the same thing and he'd have got the crap beat out of him probably! If they were waiting for the bar, key word there, to open and he'd had simply got out and opened the door I'd wonder what would have happened? Bottom line it sounds like he start's out in a bad spot being at a bar with a few rowdy's out front playing grab ass!

We read about scenario's often and seldom hear that the guy walking into it didn't walk away before it escalated. The guy owned a bar. Sounds of the guy's waiting to get in were not wearing a suit and tie, bad part of town? The best way to win a gun fight is walk away ASAP! Situation's related by guy's that have been to war don't count. War is a whole different deal. If your walking down the street and a few VC stop you, I strongly suggest you hope for a beating at worst Pull your gun and your likely gonna lose. They all probably have a gun too and you are in the bad spot, you put yourself there. I strongly doubt the average guy looking to stick up the liquor store have any desire to get into a gun fight.

[Nanuk]

Agree, but how do you do that? Even those who are faced with danger everyday are often 'not prepared'(LEO)..and they have lotsa guns and ammo at their disposal

Proper mindset goes a LONG way. I believe that most people that get into gunfights are unprepared and surprised thus it is their only option. Those that prepare, have good SA are switched on etc, only get into fights when there is no other option IE; much fewer..

[jhenry]

Statistically you are unlikely to ever be in a gunfight at all, so please justify your 5 or 6 shots. After that, rethink the question.

[Aikibiker]

My last gunfight was settled with a radio and the timely arrival of armed helicopters. I never fired a shot.

I doubt if I am unlucky enough to get in another one it will go that way again.

I carry a Glock 19 because I shoot it well and it is light and easy to conceal. I have a spare magazine because in the aftermath of a defensive shooting in the USA I will have to stay put and wait for the cops. Might get sporty if the other party's friends/family show up before the cops, so I would prefer to wait with a fully loaded gun. There is also the fact I generally have my family with me while I am out and about. My wife and 6 year cannot move as fast as I can so I may need to provide cover fire while they retreat in very extreme circumstances. And lastly having an extra mag helps me feel more balanced with the Glock on the other hip.

[American Man]

Deleted

[JohnKSa]

Statistically you are unlikely to ever be in a gunfight at all. So the first step is to justify carrying a gun.

Once you have decided to carry a gun, you can forget all about the likelihood of being in a gunfight because you've already decided to prepare for that possibility by carrying a gun.

At that point, it's time to start thinking about what kind of gun you might need, how many shots you might need, how you should carry, and how you should train to survive this gunfight you've already decided to prepare for.

If you keep going all the way back to square one every time a question comes up, it's impossible to make any headway.

Constructive expenditure of effort:
Step 1. Decide to carry a gun.
Step 2. Decide what basic kind of gun you should to carry.
Step 3. Narrow it down to a specific gun with a specific capacity.
Step 4. Decide whether or not to carry a reload.
Step 5. Decide how to practice and what training to get.
Step 6. etc.

Pointless expenditure of effort.
Step 1. Decide to carry a gun.
Step 2. Decide what basic kind of gun you want to carry based on the idea that you won't ever need to carry one.
Step 3. Narrow it down to a specific gun with a specific capacity based on the idea that you won't really ever need to carry one in the first place.
Step 4. Decide whether or not to carry a reload based on the idea that you don't really even need to carry a gun in the first place.
Step 5. Decide how to practice and what training to get based on the idea that you don't really even need to carry a gun in the first place.
Step 6. etc.

If, at every point along the way you discount the importance of the original decision to carry by arguing that it's unlikely you'll need one at all, what you're really doing is admitting that you don't really believe in the decision you made at step 1. And admitting that all of it is pointless anyway.

If that's really the case, then you need to go back to step 1 and reevaluate the decision. Think about it and really make a decision you believe in.

If you believe that gunfights are too unlikely to bother preparing for, then DON'T PREPARE for them. It makes no sense to decide that you want to prepare for them and at the same time to keep justifying cutting corners all along the way by basically second-guessing the validity of your initial decision that is the only reason you're bothering to do any preparation at all.

On the other hand, if you decide you do want to prepare for a gunfight, then start thinking about how to do that and STOP thinking about how unlikely they are--that was Step 1 and you're already done with that. If you can't stop thinking about how unlikely they are, go back to Step 1 and rethink it as long as it takes to make a decision you really believe in.

You can't ever make any constructive progress until you nail down Step 1 and can leave it behind and move on to the other important decisions to be made.

[Don Fischer]

I'm 73 almost 74 yrs old. No where near as tuff as I was 20 yrs ago. To see my gun the bad guy doesn't have to have a gun, just has to make me fear for my life. How I deal with group's like Antifa is I avoid area's they are in. But if for whatever reason they visit me at home or here in my town, they are showing up to a gun fight without a gun! I'll be damned if I would take a beating like some of the old guy's I've seen photo's of. Ain't gonna happen. But I do carry 24/7 feeling I really have no need to. But as I do have the license to carry I think showing up at a fight with my gun at home on the head board of the bed is really pretty stupid. I do not carry what I'd call and assault type weapon. High capacity mag and longer heavy barrel. I carry a Smith & Wesson Shield 9c. Came with two mag's, 7 rd and 8 rd. With the 7 rd in my little finger slips under the handle so I bought a spare 8 rd for it. Then found out I could get a part for the 7 rd that stops that. I do carry one extra 8 rd mag. Have used the gun one time to stop an attack and doubt I'll ever have to again. Called county sheriff and he told me if I shoot someone and get asked why, say, "I feared for my life". Actually when I got the gun out a calm overcame me as the attack stopped right there. Looking back had I shot the guy it would have been a public service, drugged up meth addict! But I really have no desire to shoot someone unless he came around again. First time he got to walk, next time he get's shot and I shoot till movement stops! One thing I have going for me in a gun fight is that I don't put the value on human life most people do. I value my life and my family's and that's about it.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Proper mindset goes a LONG way. I believe that most people that get into gunfights are unprepared and surprised thus it is their only option. Those that prepare, have good SA are switched on etc, only get into fights when there is no other option IE; much fewer..

I completely understand being mentally prepared, equipping myself according to my needs, requirements, circumstances and...it 'may' be sufficient, but it may not be.
My point is it's really hard to prepare/dominate 'ANY' fight..Fairly confident I will prevail, without knowing what it will be or IF it will even happen, but confidence and mental preparedness goes a long way, regardless of equipment.

[FireForged]

Proper mindset goes a LONG way. I believe that most people that get into gunfights are unprepared and surprised thus it is their only option. Those that prepare, have good SA are switched on etc, only get into fights when there is no other option IE; much fewer..

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying

I also surmise that most people have not come to terms with the moral, legal, societal, methodological or consequential aspects of using FORCE. I have known plenty of people who failed to respond correctly when faced with danger. It wasn't that they were afraid but that they were conflicted with what they were really prepared to do and under what circumstance. They were stuck in the middle of mental processes which should have already been reconciled.

What you say, what you think and what you ultimately do- should be in complete harmony.

Unfortunately, most of these people who are walking around with loads of gear and weapons are merely "playing the part" of a defender as if its theater. I am not saying that they are not good shooters, many of them are very skill shooters. I am saying that they are not prepared to manage or navigate a real armed conflict and they are not prepared to construct a proper defense. Facing down dangerous circumstance and actually fighting a (armed) and dangerous foe is not the same as being a good marksman.



I tell people that the last thing you want to be is a liability. If you are going to run around with guns and gear, you need to be squared away and have your head on straight. Otherwise, you are probably going to end up being a unwelcomed impedance to those who do know what they are doing.