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Old October 29, 2019, 01:06 PM   #1
MTT TL
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Good Tactics vs Ethical Dilemma Gets CHL Killed

In this case the CHL was approached on the street by two armed robbers. They demanded his wallet and cell phone that he then surrendered. The robbers then entered a nearby barbershop and held a second robbery.

The CHL entered the barbershop to stop the robbery and in the ensuing shootout with the robbers he and one of the robbers were killed. The other robber escaped and since it is Chicago he will never be found.

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmat...UKY1s-6O8jE7A/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2...od-hearted-guy

Our CHL had survived one encounter with the robbers which is a win. When his community was threatened he decided it was time to take a more risky approach. I know there a lot of CHL's that don't care enough about their community to lay their lives on the line for it or their fellow men, certainly not caring more about those things than their own lives. That is not really the discussion.

I am curious about what other alternatives would seem a good idea, other than rushing in to the shop trying to take down two armed gun men Lone Ranger Style. These can range from running away to all kinds of other things.
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Old October 29, 2019, 01:58 PM   #2
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9-1-1 and be a good witness
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Old October 29, 2019, 02:07 PM   #3
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Yeah, agree with above.

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Old October 29, 2019, 02:21 PM   #4
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The problem with 911 is he had just had his cell phone stolen.
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Old October 29, 2019, 02:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL View Post
The problem with 911 is he had just had his cell phone stolen.
Go to a store where they have a phone and report from there?

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Old October 29, 2019, 02:35 PM   #6
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To add something to this, when he chose to enter the barbershop no one had been hurt. Absolutely his life has been threatened, but on getting compliance the robbers left and went, presumably, in search of more compliance and money. Was engaging in a shootout in a barbershop then the best choice? I saw the comments about CHL holders and caring about their communities and fellow men. That's great. And if in the ensuing shootout he had shot or the robbers had shot one of the patrons? Edit: and in fact according to the article another patron was shot. Is that a win? Was this result a win, for that matter, when for all we know the result of his not intervening was more people robbed but no one injured, much less killed? Obviously I don't have a crystal ball, and heck maybe someone in the barbershop would have refused to comply and then been shot and lead to others getting shot. But basing it off of what had happened up to that point, idk if I jump on the intervene bandwagon.

Edit: this is from reading the second article. The first article, which does link to other news sources, argues he didn't intervene until after the shooting started. Obviously that changes the above. I'd suggest changing the two articles to be the original and the one linked to in the original.

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Old October 29, 2019, 02:36 PM   #7
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I wonder if folks read the article.

Our CHL good guy surrendered his property with no gun activity.

The bad guys went into a barber shop with 15 innocent people inside.

Now here is what inspired the good guy to take action.

The bad guys began shooting. One man was shot twice. Our good guy responded to the shooting.

How you choose to handle that is up to you.

I give the CHL my Respect for being a Man. The outcome is sad,.But I have no comment of "He should have,,,,"

RIP,Chicken Man Derrick Gholston. The World needs more like you.
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Old October 29, 2019, 02:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
I wonder if folks read the article.



Our CHL good guy surrendered his property with no gun activity.



The bad guys went into a barber shop with 15 innocent people inside.



Now here is what inspired the good guy to take action.



The bad guys began shooting. One man was shot twice. Our good guy responded to the shooting.



How you choose to handle that is up to you.



I give the CHL my Respect for being a Man. The outcome is sad,.But I have no comment of "He should have,,,,"



RIP,Chicken Man. The World needs more like you.
The second article makes it sound like the shooting didn't start until the robbers were confronted.

Which version is correct? Because the difference in the accounts has a lot to do with how I, and I imagine others, interpret what happened.

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Old October 29, 2019, 02:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
I wonder if folks read the article.



Our CHL good guy surrendered his property with no gun activity.



The bad guys went into a barber shop with 15 innocent people inside.



Now here is what inspired the good guy to take action.



The bad guys began shooting. One man was shot twice. Our good guy responded to the shooting.



How you choose to handle that is up to you.



I give the CHL my Respect for being a Man. The outcome is sad,.But I have no comment of "He should have,,,,"



RIP,Chicken Man Derrick Gholston. The World needs more like you.


Amen.


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Old October 29, 2019, 03:39 PM   #10
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A dilemma only exists as long as one continues to allow it to exist. Know where the lines are that you are going to resort to violence ahead of time. Ponder it, reconsider it, and decide the outcomes you can accept and not accept without action. If I am killed defending my children, for example, you may argue all you want that my tactics, choice of weapon, or training were wrong. Never question if it was a moral dilemma.

For this individual I expect he had an innate understanding of social violence and anti-social violence. Social violence you can find your way out of without violence such as by giving away your property. Anti-social violence is coming and there is no talking your way out of it. This is the type of violence one must meet with violence or become just another victim. When violence, by all parties, could be avoided he avoided it. When violence could not be avoided he participated. Its a reasonable line though one, in his particular case, I disagree with.
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Old October 29, 2019, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
The second article makes it sound like the shooting didn't start until the robbers were confronted.

Which version is correct? Because the difference in the accounts has a lot to do with how I, and I imagine others, interpret what happened.

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The Chicago Tribune Article does not make it clear. They are strongly anti-gun, anti-CHL. It is posted for balance. The WGN TV piece makes it clear that the robbers started shooting first hitting the man in the leg twice and then the CHL intervened. There is video footage but it has not been made public.

The Tribune article makes it appear as though the older man was somehow hit in the crossfire. This is untrue.

https://wgntv.com/2019/09/22/43-year...obbery-police/
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Old October 29, 2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL View Post
The Chicago Tribune Article does not make it clear. They are strongly anti-gun, anti-CHL. It is posted for balance. The WGN TV piece makes it clear that the robbers started shooting first hitting the man in the leg twice and then the CHL intervened. There is video footage but it has not been made public.

The Tribune article makes it appear as though the older man was somehow hit in the crossfire. This is untrue.

https://wgntv.com/2019/09/22/43-year...obbery-police/
Well having that information up front would seem moderately important, wouldn't it? You'll have to forgive me if I don't know the political leanings of every news organization in the country. I can understand the desire to be unbiased, but then state that the articles offer different points of view in the original post.

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Old October 29, 2019, 03:49 PM   #13
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We live in interesting times. People expect to know everything about what happened at a particular event and want to see video evidence or it never happened in their minds. Better to go with what the CHL knew or likely knew.

Gholston may or may not have known that people were being shot. He knew for sure that rounds were being fired, maybe not for sure that anyone was being hit. We will never know that for sure.
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Old October 29, 2019, 03:50 PM   #14
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But one account is that he knew shots had been fired. Your original post doesn't include this. So if the argument is we should only know what the CHL holder knew, then the post doesn't accomplish that.

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Old October 29, 2019, 04:02 PM   #15
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That is why you should read the articles. They are posted within the body of the post for clarity.
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Old October 29, 2019, 04:14 PM   #16
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And then the readers don't know which account is correct as they differ, by your own admission. However, you then go on to state rather emphatically that one is correct and the other is the result of a biased organization. It seems like withholding information for the sake of it or even providing disinformation rather than making it more obvious to your participants. You then ask people what they would have done. Seems like a flawed premise, but I imagine you'd come back with something deep like, "a lot of our understanding in life is flawed." Which while true, kind of seems like a bs way to excuse what is a bit of a puzzling decision. Hey, your thread, go crazy. After all, life can be crazy.

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Old October 29, 2019, 07:06 PM   #17
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I see the difference in the articles. I think bottom line is that before you make a decision to get involved you have to be confident in your ability despite your best of intentions to help out. Not all CCW holders are the same. Even someone highly trained can end up getting taken out. I'll give the guy credit for trying. But that scenario might have been way above his skill level. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing though.
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Old October 29, 2019, 07:13 PM   #18
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Sometimes you lose. That's the harsh reality for anyone carrying concealed. Assuming he did hear shooting and those people were his friends I can understand his motivation. As far as tactics, absent a moment by moment account of how he entered, whether he did or didn't use cover, what shots he hit/missed, not sure. We can always train more and be better. The real decision was choosing to get involved. After that unless he had intimate knowledge of the floor plan or access to an entrance the attackers didn't know exists, he was outgunned and likely walking into the sights of someone else (assuming the robbers were smart enough to have someone watch the door). Not a good starting point, but again if the alternative is do nothing while your friends get shot, maybe it is what it is.

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Old October 29, 2019, 07:48 PM   #19
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Tunnelrat:

You set things pretty straight in your last post.

There are some things we don't know,and some things I must own as my own interpretation.
Right or wrong,my interpretation is he did not reach for deadly force over property,when he was being robbed. He let the property go.

As I read the article,he went in to the barber shop after shots had been fired,presumably to save life. As it went,he lost his own.

It is from that interpretation I commented.

From unknowns and a different article interpretation,you were working with the idea the shooting started after he went into the barber shop.

If there were no shots fired before he went n...If,for example he figured "I'm going to take my gun and get my phone back" Then I have a different interpretation. I'd still be sympathetic,but had he lived,he may have earned handcuffs and a trial.

The timeline on the initial shots makes a difference.
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Old October 29, 2019, 08:06 PM   #20
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Thank you. My comments on the timeline aren't just to be a pedantic pain in the butt, but because like you they matter in terms of my interpretation of the event. They also factor into tactics used. If I think people are just being robbed, I find another store with a phone, call it in, and stay to provide hopefully a good description. Shots being fired indicating people potentially being shot dramatically shortens my timeline.

I had a similar discussion once with an instructor after a course on doorways and corners. I was asking the instructor after the course about clearing a particular hallway in my house in the event of a break-in or home invasion. He asked me why I would do that rather than call it in and wait for the cavalry. I explained my wife often worked on the opposite end of the house. He explained that in that case I didn't have the time to pie every door and corner. It was quick peeks and move or by the time I got there she might be seriously wounded. Sometimes there isn't the time to do things as we would want.

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Old October 30, 2019, 06:21 AM   #21
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what is a CHL?
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Old October 30, 2019, 07:03 AM   #22
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CHL Concealed handgun license

CPL Concealed pistol license

CWP Concealed weapon permit - this is an antiquated term in Michigan though still exists on the books. One should carefully note the difference between a CPL and a CWP
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Old October 30, 2019, 07:09 AM   #23
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I believe it stands for Concealed Handgun License.

In PA, it's LTCF - License to Carry Firearm. For civilians the most common reason given on the application is "self defense." As such, the persons with the permit are given license to carry a firearm and use it in defending themselves as opposed to acting as law enforcement or professional security personnel. It's a tough call in a case like the OP is pointing out.
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Old October 30, 2019, 09:43 AM   #24
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I was not there, so a little conjecture here. He followed the two men into the Barbers shop, that we know. They had guns out, that we also know.

I can imagine what happened next! The good citizen spoke.

Most likely, famous words from newsreels, movies etc. "Drop the gun"
Bad guys shot first.

What I think I would have done, shot from cover, as soon as was in cover, closest robber first, double-tap both! Continue.
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Old October 30, 2019, 10:00 AM   #25
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Brit brings up a point. When violence IS the answer it is the only answer. Your adversaries are willing to employ it in dastardly ways. If you are going to enter combat with such adversaries you have to be just as willing as they are to commit violence and commit it in dastardly ways.
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