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Old February 15, 2021, 09:26 PM   #1
Alan0354
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How is Kahr P380 and PM9093

Hi

I am thinking about buying another semi, I am looking at Kahr, it is after my time when I quit shooting 30 years ago. Kahr is after my time and I have no idea whether they are good or bad. Just want to hear from you guys.

Thanks
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Old February 15, 2021, 10:14 PM   #2
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You are going to hear both fans and haters. I'm a total fan. I have the PM 9 and it's one of my favorite pistols. Always has been reliable from day one. No malfunctions at all over hundresds of rounds.
Although Kahr states that the first round must be done with the slide lock release, I have never had any problems with the three Kahrs I've owned, a PM9, P45 and K40 any problems with loading with the overhand "slingshot" release as long as you don't ride the slide. The PM9 has the polygonal barrel, so I don't shoot lead through it, but plated is fine.
I have the magguts kits in my magazines, so the shorty flush is 7+1 and the longer with the sleeve is 8+1. The PM9 is TINY compared to my glock 19 and much smaller than your glock 26, so with CA's 10 round limit, I'm only short two rounds compared to any larger 9mm.
I can shoot as accurately with this tiny 9mm as any of my larger guns.

The .380 is even smaller, but I have another .380 and never carry it, living in the woods.

Some people hate the trigger, but being a revolver shooter, I love the buttery long double action. It takes some getting used to. You have to release the trigger totally for the reset, and it is NOT "crisp" but buttery. Probably the smoothest pulling double action beside my Kimber K6!
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Old February 15, 2021, 11:29 PM   #3
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I have shot a couple, I was not impressed especially with the trigger. Better options out there for a small carry gun IMHO.

With that said, both were reliable. A lot comes down to the user, and how the gun fits them, as well as personal preference. I would say find a range and rent one, try a few different pistols if you can. Make sure your happy with what you get.
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Old February 16, 2021, 12:18 AM   #4
Alan0354
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Thanks guys, I have to call the range to see whether they rent out any guns.....better yet, selling any ammo.

I am not set on anything, I am still thinking about the Ruger LC380. It's a little heavy, but there's a lot of good reviews on that. Youtube doesn't seems to be too kind to the Kahr.

Seems like you just cannot get high reliability, bigger caliber and light weight together, got to have some weight behind it to be more reliable. Even Ruger is the same, there was at least one youtube show the LCP small 380 malfunction multiple times. Also, it's not legal in Kalifornia. LC380 is bigger and heavier.

Even the Beretta Tomcat 32 have it's share of frame cracking problem with smaller 32ACP. Just hard to find tiny ones with significant calibers.

Last edited by Alan0354; February 16, 2021 at 12:28 AM.
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Old February 16, 2021, 02:07 AM   #5
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The P380 is a wonderful pocket .380 in theory, but I found the execution to be terrible. Search for "Kahr" along with my username, and you can see the incredible number of problems I had with the gun, which even four return trips to the factory for warranty service failed to fully correct. Maybe they're better these days. I have no idea. I bought mine in 2010, and I would never buy another Kahr after my experience.

I've found the third-generation Beretta Pico to be the best of all of the .380 mouse guns for me. It's not for everyone, though. Some of the design choices are a little extreme, though not without justification (e.g., very slender slide stop for reduced width, unusual push-down magazine release to prevent accidental mag releases during pocket carry). It's a robust (for its size) and very well-made little gun, and mine has been perfectly reliable for the ~1,200 rounds I've put through it. Beretta also says that it's fine to use the fire-breathing loads from Buffalo Bore and Underwood in the Pico, which is not something many, or maybe any, other companies will say for their pocket .380s; I don't use these rounds, but I like that the gun is rugged enough to handle them.

Last edited by AustinTX; February 16, 2021 at 03:51 AM.
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Old February 16, 2021, 02:26 AM   #6
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Totally dedicated fan of the Kahr's. Trigger is notorious for being one of the very best DAO semi's in the market. Also the Kahr Cm/Pm 9's are one of the smallest in class and weighs only 15oz. and easy to shoot. I have a size large hand and the gun fits perfect. I also am a big fan of Pocket pistols and love the CW and P380

These are guns you is love to just pick up and admire. I have two CM9's, a CW380 and a P380. All 4 of mine run great and I shoot them weekly. (or at least did before the crap hit the fan).

The Pic below is with the Extended mag.



And I will agree with the other Poster about the Pico being best in class of the 380's and Kahr running very close. I own three of the Pico's. But like any 380's in that size, they are IMO for advanced shooters.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; February 16, 2021 at 02:32 AM.
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Old February 16, 2021, 02:35 AM   #7
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I have a Kahr MK9, which is similar to a PM9 except with a stainless steel frame. I haven't fired a PM9 nor a P380, but I like my MK9 to the point where I've been considering a P380.

One of the make-or-break factors is the Kahr trigger. Technically, it's a pre-tensioned striker, but it feels more like a very short DA trigger that stacks just a little bit before release if you are paying attention. Except smoother, but it doesn't pull through like a revolver. It needs to be released nearly completely to reset, but I honestly think it's fine and surprisingly smooth.

If you are enthusiastic about "riding the release", you will be furious and completely outraged. But for a subcompact without a manual safety that may or may not be pocket carried, I feel it's relatively safe and responsible.

The manual is big on not slingshotting, but my MK9 doesn't mind either way.

I've also been thinking about a Beretta Pico. I haven't handled nor fired one, but it appears to be drowning in love across the entire internet for those who don't mind true DAO.
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Old February 16, 2021, 03:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTX View Post
The P380 is a wonderful pocket .380 in theory, but I found the execution to be terrible. Search for "Kahr" along with my username, and you can see the incredible number of problems I had with the gun, which even four return trips to the factory for warranty service failed to fully correct. Maybe they're better these days. I have no idea. I bought mine in 2010, and I would never buy another Kahr after my experience.

I've found the second-generation Beretta Pico to be the best of all of the .380 mouse guns for me. It's not for everyone, though. Some of the design choices are a little extreme, though not without justification (e.g., very slender slide stop for reduced width, unusual push-down magazine release to prevent accidental mag releases during pocket carry). It's a robust (for its size) and very well-made little gun, and mine has been perfectly reliable for the ~1,200 rounds I've put through it. Beretta also says that it's fine to use the fire-breathing loads from Buffalo Bore and Underwood in the Pico, which is not something many, or maybe any, other companies will say for their pocket .380s; I don't use these rounds, but I like that the gun is rugged enough to handle them.
Yeh, I saw problems with Kahr on youtube videos. But this one really talked me out of Kahr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxwIBN4nLV8

This is Kahr customer service. He blame the feeding problem on the user not holding the gun right!!! I think that's the end of it.

Boy, the CW have issues!!!

I guess I need to look at Ruger LC380. We cannot get LCP in kalifornia, but there are a few negative youtube videos, not much on LC380. Really seems like you cannot make the 380 guns too small and still reliable.

I am in no hurry to choose one, We have a 30 days waiting period between buying guns. I just got my Glock 26 last Friday, still have a long ways to go before I can buy another one
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Old February 16, 2021, 05:35 AM   #9
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Limp wristing is a issue I have seen with just about all small guns, this guy actually had the balls to tell people. And most people do not want to be told they do. I have been shooting thousands of rounds through different 380's and micro 9mm's for years and seen so many problems of guns because the owner could not handle the gun properly. They will invariably blame the gun and to on to bad mouth it.

Here is a fact. The Kahr 380 is a terrific firearm, one of the best 380's made. A one of the Mildest you will shoot for it's size. I laugh when I hear folks say that you cannot make a small gun reliable. I have one Pico that has already more rounds through it without ONE SINGLE failure of any kind( other than a few bad primer strikes on cheap reloads that I get with any gun), than most people shoot their standard edc.
You mention the LCP, well I know a lot about them having owned 4 of them since they first came out. And still own one. I will not disparage the gun because I do not wan to offend anyone, but the Kahr is much better built firearm.If you plan on shooting often then get the Kahr or Pico. The Kahr has a great build quality but the Pico is truly in a class by itself. A real tank if you may.
Persoanlly I do not think a small 380 is for you. I would stick with one of the larger guns like the LC380. The LC380 would be the best choice for you from what I am reading. Or a Bersa or similar.

Here is a P380 fresh out of the box. I did PRE-condition it before range day. Here it is shooting 200 rds of mixed ammo not one problem except one. On the very last round, I was getting tired and sloppy and I took the gun in my off hand and limp wristed the gun. It happens

Personally I would not advise anyone to get any 380 right now. You will not find the ammo, at least not enough to train properly and diligently. And if you do, expect to pay a fortune. Again, 380's IMO of shooting them so often for so many years, is that they are for advanced shooters. And if a shooter put in the time and money they can do wonders, much more than the internet will tell you. Similar to a snubbie revolver.
And if you do buy a 380, then break the gun down and examine the Parts and how it is made. You will see some major differences in quality.



PS look at the steel inserts that Kahr winvested in for the frame. There is a reason why they did this. And why you will pay al little more.


Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; February 16, 2021 at 05:59 AM.
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Old February 16, 2021, 07:09 AM   #10
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How is Kahr P380 and PM9093

Most blowback pistols can be affected by limp-wristing, and in my experience it is usually directly related to size of the gun and the caliber it’s chambered in. For example, a .380 PPK is more susceptible to limp-wristing than a .32 PP or even PPK/s.

One positive anecdote I’ve seen about the P380 was about its robustness. A few gunsmiths apparently successfully rechambered the P380 to fire 9x18 Police. So that means at least its barrel was bulky enough to allow an extra millimeter of material to be bored out of the firing chamber while retaining strength against the added pressure .

I won’t own a Kahr because of their link with the Unification Church, but that doesn’t bother everyone.
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Old February 16, 2021, 08:00 AM   #11
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I have a Kahr PM9 and PM40
I had a Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP 380
Kahr PM9 loaded with Corbon 115+P easier to shoot quick & accurate than pocket 380
Kahr PM40 subjective recoil more on par with pocket 380
Either the Kahr PM9 or PM40 would be preferred over a 38 snub and that still aint my idea of a primary gun, wherever.
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Old February 16, 2021, 01:50 PM   #12
Alan0354
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
Limp wristing is a issue I have seen with just about all small guns, this guy actually had the balls to tell people. And most people do not want to be told they do. I have been shooting thousands of rounds through different 380's and micro 9mm's for years and seen so many problems of guns because the owner could not handle the gun properly. They will invariably blame the gun and to on to bad mouth it.

Here is a fact. The Kahr 380 is a terrific firearm, one of the best 380's made. A one of the Mildest you will shoot for it's size. I laugh when I hear folks say that you cannot make a small gun reliable. I have one Pico that has already more rounds through it without ONE SINGLE failure of any kind( other than a few bad primer strikes on cheap reloads that I get with any gun), than most people shoot their standard edc.
You mention the LCP, well I know a lot about them having owned 4 of them since they first came out. And still own one. I will not disparage the gun because I do not wan to offend anyone, but the Kahr is much better built firearm.If you plan on shooting often then get the Kahr or Pico. The Kahr has a great build quality but the Pico is truly in a class by itself. A real tank if you may.
Persoanlly I do not think a small 380 is for you. I would stick with one of the larger guns like the LC380. The LC380 would be the best choice for you from what I am reading. Or a Bersa or similar.

Here is a P380 fresh out of the box. I did PRE-condition it before range day. Here it is shooting 200 rds of mixed ammo not one problem except one. On the very last round, I was getting tired and sloppy and I took the gun in my off hand and limp wristed the gun. It happens

Personally I would not advise anyone to get any 380 right now. You will not find the ammo, at least not enough to train properly and diligently. And if you do, expect to pay a fortune. Again, 380's IMO of shooting them so often for so many years, is that they are for advanced shooters. And if a shooter put in the time and money they can do wonders, much more than the internet will tell you. Similar to a snubbie revolver.
And if you do buy a 380, then break the gun down and examine the Parts and how it is made. You will see some major differences in quality.



PS look at the steel inserts that Kahr winvested in for the frame. There is a reason why they did this. And why you will pay al little more.

Thanks for the detail reply, too bad we cannot get Pico in kalif. Yes, I am looking at Ruger LC380 also. I looked at the breakdown of the gun, it actually has a full receiver unit inside the frame you can take it out. It looks very robust. Yeh, the limp wrist really matter for small semi, even for big ones. Even my Gold Cup FTF once during competition. Must be nervous during the competition.

I have time to decide, still got over 20 days before I can buy another gun.
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Old February 16, 2021, 03:20 PM   #13
Alan0354
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Originally Posted by gonzogeezer View Post
Most blowback pistols can be affected by limp-wristing, and in my experience it is usually directly related to size of the gun and the caliber it’s chambered in. For example, a .380 PPK is more susceptible to limp-wristing than a .32 PP or even PPK/s.

One positive anecdote I’ve seen about the P380 was about its robustness. A few gunsmiths apparently successfully rechambered the P380 to fire 9x18 Police. So that means at least its barrel was bulky enough to allow an extra millimeter of material to be bored out of the firing chamber while retaining strength against the added pressure .

I won’t own a Kahr because of their link with the Unification Church, but that doesn’t bother everyone.
I've seen on youtube they can just buy the slide and barrel assembly and just replace into the LC380 and becomes the LC9.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOvmooTl-p8

Problem is you go on youtube, there are a lot of failures on LC9s.

Yes, looks like LC380 is very robust for 380, I think that's the reason why there are very few problems with the LC380, but the EXACT design fit for 9mm have issues because the 9mm is stronger than 380ACP. Weight has a lot to do with it. You reduce the weight of the slide, then you have to depend on the recoil spring more, it has to be stiffer. Then it's harder to get high reliability.

I don't trust any one youtube video, but if there's a big collection of complains, then it tells me that it's not good. I mainly go on youtube to look at how many failure complains. You will notice, there are very few Glock complains on jamming. Huge difference on complains between LC380 and LC9 being lots of complains on LC9.

Actually you have to be careful to search for LC380, youtube quickly shows LCP380 and LC9 with all the complains.

One thing gets me a little nervous, compare to my S&W 659 bigger and heavier 9mm, the Glock 26 is harder to rack the slide. The recoil spring is definitely stiffer than the 659 because 659 has a longer and heavier slide, it doesn't need a stiff spring. But Glock 26 being shorter and lighter slide, it needs a stiffer spring. I read that the spring on the Glock 19 is not as stiff as Glock 26. I bet it's because Glock 19 slide is 1/2" longer and thereby heavier.

Hell, if I still cannot decide when the 30 days is up and I shoot and like the Glock 26, I just might consider a Glock 19. Hack, consider the popularity of Glock, there are very few complains about jamming and failure. That speaks louder than anything else. Just cross my fingers my Glock 26 is reliable.

I have a Walther PPKS, not much heavier than the LC380. I really don't need another 380. The PPKS is absolutely reliable, I put a lot of work into it to make it so reliable.
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Old February 16, 2021, 05:12 PM   #14
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I have carried a LC9s as my EDC for the last 5-6 years. Long but light trigger pull. very accurate. Reasonable recoil. Never had a malfunction during firing. Occasionally when dropping the slide after inserting a new magazine I would have a round nose down. Usually pulling the slide back and letting it fall again fixed the problem. Did not have that issue until about 3 years in. Never an issue when firing though. Probably ought to clean the mags, I suspect that is the issue since I have never done it....

I will say the LC9s is a PITA to clean though with the take down pin inside the frame. Had to use the magazine base plate to get the pin door open. Then lined up the slide and used a tooth pick from the other side to push it out.

with the 9rnd magazine, the rounds did NOT want to come out by hand for some reason. But they stripped out in the gun no problem.

In my extended experience the LC9s is a great little EDC gun and a reasonable range gun.
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Old February 16, 2021, 05:40 PM   #15
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From this size comparison, the Kahr PM9 is much smaller than the Ruger LC9

Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2021-02-16 at 2.38.43 PM.png (158.0 KB, 262 views)
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Old February 16, 2021, 06:51 PM   #16
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This illustrates the difference a bit better I feel. For me the Kahr is too small in hand, but I do have large hands. The LC9s is as small as I can go and grip the gun comfortably, and keep all my fingers on it. Still pocket carries quite well.

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Old February 16, 2021, 07:27 PM   #17
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The Kahr's in general can be sort of hit and miss; I've had 5-6, and now only have one, a CW380. I've had CW9's (x2) that were fine, a P9 that was fine (but very heavy for its size), a CW40 that was fine, and a CW45 that was problematic; it went back to the factory and came back 'fixed', but even a *slightly* less than full-solid grip would make it malfunction, and that was even more pronounced weak hand. In the end, I couldn't trust it for CCW, and it moved along.

I still think the CW380 is the best 'always' gun I've encountered; with real sights and a very good trigger, I can manage head shots at 20 yards very comfortably, something that's tricky with other sub-compacts.

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Old February 16, 2021, 10:50 PM   #18
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I wanted to buy a P380 last year. I like Kahr's faux-DAO triggers, but the guy at the gun store warned me that the slide was very hard to rack. He wasn't kidding, and I ended up passing on the gun. Something to think about if you're older and have declining hand strength.
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Old February 17, 2021, 12:34 AM   #19
Alan0354
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Originally Posted by Pistolay View Post
I wanted to buy a P380 last year. I like Kahr's faux-DAO triggers, but the guy at the gun store warned me that the slide was very hard to rack. He wasn't kidding, and I ended up passing on the gun. Something to think about if you're older and have declining hand strength.
That's what I suspect, the smaller and lighter the gun, they need a stronger recoil spring to compensate. That makes it a lot more critical to get everything just right. That's why some people swear by it, some keep having problem with feeding and ejection. Bottom line, there's no free lunch, you just cannot have reliability, small and light in the same semi. From my understanding, Ruger LC380 has the same grip frame as LC9, just change the slide and barrel assembly of the 380 to 9mm, it becomes LC9. But look at the youtube, there are so many feeding issue with LC9 but very few with LC380. Must be the LC9 kit has stronger recoil spring to compensate for the more powerful 9mm.

I am more incline to look at Ruger LC380 for 380ACP or S&W M&P Shield for 9mm. I don't want to push too small the size. I want reliability.

In fact, I definitely notice the slide on my Glock 26 is a lot harder to rack than my full size S&W659. Glock 26 has a shorter slide thereby lighter, it has to have a stiffer spring to compensate. This means there is higher probability of failure with weaker reloads. I have to try and see what happens. I hope it's ok.

Last edited by Alan0354; February 17, 2021 at 12:40 AM.
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Old February 17, 2021, 10:37 AM   #20
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Kahr, like Kimber, and a few others will have its lovers and haters.
I had a PM9 that never let me down and I fired thousands of handloads with no problems at all. It was a great pocket pistol. I sold it a year after purchasing a Sig P365 and only because of the increased capacity.
As for the 380, I went with a Ruger LCPII just because of its size. I find that to be an incredible little firearm to carry where you aren't allowed to carry a gun.
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Old February 20, 2021, 06:54 PM   #21
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I've had my share of Kahrs, the cw380, several of the smaller 9mm's, .40's and one .45. They're not bad guns but I did have some issues with them, both particular and in general. In the .40's it wasn't uncommon for the mag follower to break under recoil after it loaded the last round. Didn't experience this in 9mm.

However in general, they slide stop/release lever is also used to disassemble the gun and on the smaller models, especially the small 380, I found it very difficult to not engage the slide stop under recoil, it sticks out pretty far. The trigger in general isn't bad, but it has no short reset and to me, that's not great.

If you're after a 380, the best 380 I've ever shot is my Glock 42, miles better than the CW380 and LCP's I've had. It's small enough to pocket but it shoots like a larger gun, so easy. For 9mm I might suggest something like a G26, it's reliable as all get out, or you can look into the G43/43X, which are smaller but will recoil a bit more.
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Old February 21, 2021, 12:19 PM   #22
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I couldn’t get my P380 to run reliably, even after 1000 rounds of “break-in” and a trip back to Kahr. My PM9 and it’s cheaper cousin ( CM9?), and K9 Elite, were better but still had enough malfs to be not trusted for carry.

I won’t recommend Kahr and won’t buy another. The original K9 geometry might be OK, but they pushed the envelope going smaller and they are built tight and not built with reliability foremost in mind, in my opinion.

With the SIG P365 and Glock 43 out there, no reason to even look at Kahr.
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Old February 21, 2021, 05:41 PM   #23
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I liked the Kahr CM9 so much I started looking at reviews on their .380.

I decided to stick with the LCP for .380. Add in Ruger's excellent customer service, whether you bought the gun new or not, and it's easy (for me).
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Old February 22, 2021, 10:23 PM   #24
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I had nothing but problems with my high priced K9 till I changed the cheap guide rod, slide stop and polished the chamber. Runs fine now. Either they work or they don't! I knew someone with a PM45. Piece of garbage wouldn't shoot through a magazine without locking back much like my K9 out of the box. It would automatically drop the slide and load the chamber when you inserted a magazine just like a Browning Auto 5. Kahr has basically a good design but their quality control is mmmmeeehhhh. When they run, they are good guns.

Honest Outlaw has a good video with a cw380. Piece of Junk with some of the same old common Kahr problems. At the end it shows his video out takes with repeated jams in the Kahr just trying to do an introduction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpVKCQLuuG0
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Old February 22, 2021, 11:20 PM   #25
Carl the Floor Walker
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I had nothing but problems with my high priced K9 till I changed the cheap guide rod, slide stop and polished the chamber. Runs fine now. Either they work or they don't! I knew someone with a PM45. Piece of garbage wouldn't shoot through a magazine without locking back much like my K9 out of the box. It would automatically drop the slide and load the chamber when you inserted a magazine just like a Browning Auto 5. Kahr has basically a good design but their quality control is mmmmeeehhhh. When they run, they are good guns.

Honest Outlaw has a good video with a cw380. Piece of Junk with some of the same old common Kahr problems. At the end it shows his video out takes with repeated jams in the Kahr just trying to do an introduction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpVKCQLuuG0
I laughed at that video. I bet I could take that gun and have it run perfect after a initial break in that I do. The Kahr has tight tolerances and does require this. I have had friends at my club with a new Kahr 380. told them to let me take it home and I bring it back and they run great.
He complains about the trigger and the reset. What baloney, the Kahr is notorious for one of the best DAO triggers on the market. Smooth as Silk. He says, you cannot run the Kahr very fast. NONSENSE. I showed a Kahr above that I did the simple break in and it ran flawlessly with 200 rds of mixed ammo. And many rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger.
This is why I take YOUTUBE video's with a grain of salt. By the way, he also limp wrested the gun on on the one handed shooting and blamed it on the gun.
I have shot many Sigs, both in 380 and 9mm. The Kahr's will run every bit as good as them.
If you do not want a firearm with tight tolerences and do not want to break in in properly then fine. Do not buy one, but do not get on the internet and bash the gun without doing so.
Here is a Fact, the Khar 380 will shoot extremely smooth and one of the most accurate 380's I have ever shot. And easy to shoot well. The 380's do require a break in the 9mm's require very little if any right out of the box. He also said that the gun will choke after 300 rounds if not cleaned. Lol, yep that is true, but I doubt this guy even shot it 300 rounds. And 380's do need to be cleaned after a few hundred rounds. These are not military combat guns. There are other videos out there where the owners shoot them with no problem. Kahr has been manufacturing these 380's for years and a almost cult like following.
And there 9'mm's are a truly great firearm. I have ran mine against many Micro 9mm's and the shooting of them is right on.

Here is a video of a guy that actually has owned one for three years. Seems no problem at all. Echos my years of shooting them as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzbAi9ygbaY&t=1s

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; February 23, 2021 at 03:32 AM.
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