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Old April 1, 2024, 11:25 AM   #26
stagpanther
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NRL22 on steroids. (And for championship points, but I'm not at that level.)
Longer ranges.
Smaller targets.
Harder stages.
Higher round counts.
Shorter time limits.
Difficult props and shooting positions.
Blind stages.
Unknown distance stages.
Stages with crippling gear limitations.
Whatever else a match director can dream up.
And overall longer matches. (8-10 hours, or more; vs 2-4 for normal NRL22)


This match says they are only shooting to 300 yd. But it is not uncommon for longer ranges to be encountered. The X match that our club held last year, for example, went to ~420 yards. Even with a better scope and base, I had to "max out" elevation and hold 22 MoA in the reticle.

(I never shoot with a scope adjustment against its stop. "Maxing out" elevation, for me, means hitting the stop and backing off a few MoAs/Mils.)
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Sounds very intimidating to me! Do these things go no matter how strong the winds are? I probably wouldn't even bother showing up if the tasks call for long ranges and strong winds. ; )
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Old April 1, 2024, 03:21 PM   #27
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Unless the weather poses serious risk of injury or death (on site or during travel), the matches are held. Rain or shine, wind or calm.
Ours, for example, saw sustained winds of 12-27 mph, gusting to 30+ mph; with 8+ inches of snowfall and 18-24 F temps. And stages were arranged such that we shot almost 360 degrees. The only portion of the compass that was missing was about 290 to 330 degrees. So every stage had a different (and/or multiple) wind direction(s) to deal with.

Many frozen optics, frozen magazines, frozen rifles, frozen feet, and accidental scope foggings while on the clock.

The day started by pulling cars out of snowdrifts on the road, and ended by pulling cars out of the ditch outside the gate to the range.

Many shooters from places with generally calmer winds had very, very bad days. Several asked me how we deal with it.
Short version: "It's always like this..."
(I still often forget my wind holds while on the clock. I'll even mentally note a wind flag shift in my scope, and do absolutely nothing about it.)
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Old April 1, 2024, 03:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Oh yes abused--I've used it for lead factory ammo as well as a testbed for my monolithic handloads of dubious pressure and headspacing qualities which every so often led to a case head detonation and very stubborn copper streaks in the bore. It's also been exposed to the finest snow and rain storms that Maine can offer up.

All that said, she's still a honey of a shooter.


The only things that aren't stock are the chassis and yodave spring job--otherwise she's a true blue CZ 457 action/barrel with conventional add-ons. The Leupold vx5 HD doesn't hurt, either.
You gotta love that in a rifle!
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Old April 1, 2024, 05:47 PM   #29
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Unless the weather poses serious risk of injury or death (on site or during travel), the matches are held. Rain or shine, wind or calm.
Ours, for example, saw sustained winds of 12-27 mph, gusting to 30+ mph; with 8+ inches of snowfall and 18-24 F temps. And stages were arranged such that we shot almost 360 degrees. The only portion of the compass that was missing was about 290 to 330 degrees. So every stage had a different (and/or multiple) wind direction(s) to deal with.

Many frozen optics, frozen magazines, frozen rifles, frozen feet, and accidental scope foggings while on the clock.

The day started by pulling cars out of snowdrifts on the road, and ended by pulling cars out of the ditch outside the gate to the range.

Many shooters from places with generally calmer winds had very, very bad days. Several asked me how we deal with it.
Short version: "It's always like this..."
(I still often forget my wind holds while on the clock. I'll even mentally note a wind flag shift in my scope, and do absolutely nothing about it.)
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Sounds a lot like where I live in Maine! I have lots of experience shooting in those kinds of conditions--but instead of benefitting me to pursue something like that I've learned it's mostly a waste of my expensive ammo--at least at my [meager]skill level. You have my most sincere admiration!
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Old April 1, 2024, 06:26 PM   #30
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(Full disclosure--prevailing opinion about the jaguar's unusually long 28" barrel is that it is a detriment to velocity and performance compared to shorter barrels, especially around 18". )

in my exp. velocity yeah, but generally a plus on accuracy,
and the velocities being a little slower seem more consistent. but that's just me.
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Old April 1, 2024, 06:48 PM   #31
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(Full disclosure--prevailing opinion about the jaguar's unusually long 28" barrel is that it is a detriment to velocity and performance compared to shorter barrels, especially around 18". )

in my exp. velocity yeah, but generally a plus on accuracy,
and the velocities being a little slower seem more consistent. but that's just me.
I heard from some 22lr shooters that basically I made a mistake buying the jaguar when I bought it--I sorta politely said my rifle never got the memo it shouldn't shoot well compared to the short-barrel ones.
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Old April 1, 2024, 09:38 PM   #32
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I really want a Jaguar (and want to shoot matches with the iron sights), but I dislike the stock.
But I cannot restock it without breaking out of Base class in NRL22 (no stock changes allowed, unless sold by the manufacturer, but MSRP still comes into play). Wouldn't matter in X matches or PRS22, though.

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Sounds a lot like where I live in Maine! I have lots of experience shooting in those kinds of conditions--but instead of benefitting me to pursue something like that I've learned it's mostly a waste of my expensive ammo--at least at my [meager]skill level. You have my most sincere admiration!
Thank you.
But I believe you have more skill than myself.
I am a mediocre competition shooter, I screw up complicated target orders if I don't have a cheat sheet, and, as mentioned before, I regularly completely forget to adjust for the wind when I see it shift/change. ...In a place where the wind is an all-present factor and our most common enemy.
You just haven't been put on the clock to see how well you'd do.

Give it a shot if you can.
It looks like there's an NRL22 club in Scarborough and their next match seems to be in May. I don't believe that is very close to you, but I think it is the closest option.
https://nrl22.org/clubs/scarborough-fish-and-game/
https://scarfg.org/
https://practiscore.com/clubs/scarbo...and_game_rifle
The first two links have contact information. You can email for specifics, let them know you're a new and inexperienced shooter, etc. Most people in NRL22 are very friendly and want to see new faces, no matter the skill level (until they clean the course ).
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Old April 1, 2024, 10:17 PM   #33
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But I believe you have more skill than myself.
Probably not true--my idea of competition shooting is to enter one of the mrrevolverguy's contests where I can pick and choose the conditions at my leisure and then shoot a 1,000 targets knowing the odds are good that one of them will turn out to be pretty good eventually.

Anyway, I think you will like the jaguar, especially if you get one that shoots like mine. When I stick a bore scope down the bore it still amazes how good it looks, it reminds me of the bores of my custom made and lapped high end centerfire barrels. The biggest drawback is like some other companies, CZUSA appears to be a pretty small outfit so keeping spare parts--most importantly spare jaguar barrels in my case--is a hit or miss affair--generally more miss than hit. So I figure that replacing the barrel means buying a new rifle--when you're lucky enough to find one available.

Thanks for the comp references--I have pondered them before. Scarborough is a long drive--but I might try it out one day just out of curiosity.

PS--there are some private clubs in Maine that do their own matches, and understandably they want you to get vetted join and then do membership duties as part of the bargain. I generally don't do well at the ritual hazing interviews; but that's my hang-up.
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Old April 2, 2024, 08:11 AM   #34
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I really want a Jaguar (and want to shoot matches with the iron sights), but I dislike the stock.
But I cannot restock it without breaking out of Base class in NRL22 (no stock changes allowed, unless sold by the manufacturer, but MSRP still comes into play). Wouldn't matter in X matches or PRS22, though.
I'm curious--in this base class are you allowed to do any bedding and trigger work--or must it be "absolutely stock, not messed with at all?" I agree the stock it comes with isn't ideal for shooting off of mixed bases.
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Old April 2, 2024, 10:20 AM   #35
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Bedding is acceptable.
And "adjustments to the stock" to get proper cheek weld.
Also adding any type of rail for bipod mounting.
Muzzles can be threaded, but barrels cannot be altered otherwise.
Trigger work/replacement was banned prior to and for the 2023 season (when I started), except for factory offered upgrades/options. But that line in the rules was inexplicably dropped for the 2024 season -- even though the staff seem to want Base class to become "100% untouched, as it left the factory."
That's about it. Further modification requires the rifle moving into Open class.


Related, but needs to be a sidebar:
It is a whole can of worms that should not be fully uncorked here. But... They have been polling members about thoughts on rules for Base class in the future (possibly 2025 season [starting June 2024], but likely 2026), and it is very obvious that they want all "experienced" shooters (3+ matches) in Open class, with Base becoming more like "Intro to NRL22, with bone-stock factory rifles only." Aka, "Welcome to club CZ457. It is all CZs, all of the time." Because that is the only competitive option in the proposed new rule set.

They have proposed literally zero modifications being allowed, price limits on bipods and support bags, and a dozen other head-scratchers. "Your rifle left the factory without sling swivels? Tough! Drill a hole and you're out! Time to learn how to shoot without a bipod!" They want to knee-cap new shooters by limiting them to rifles that are completely non-competitive - or require buying a new rifle just to get started - while simultaneously having a constant push/evolution toward more complicated stages and harder props. The parallel goals are mind-bogglingly divergent.
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Old April 2, 2024, 10:28 AM   #36
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Related, but needs to be a sidebar:
It is a whole can of worms that should not be fully uncorked here. But... They have been polling members about thoughts on rules for Base class in the future (possibly 2025 season [starting June 2024], but likely 2026), and it is very obvious that they want all "experienced" shooters (3+ matches) in Open class, with Base becoming more like "Intro to NRL22, with bone-stock factory rifles only." Aka, "Welcome to club CZ457. It is all CZs, all of the time." Because that is the only competitive option in the proposed new rule set.
I get it--they want to use the class as a ladder drug for kids that have $200 10-22's and other cheapos. But how do you limit $5,000 factory stock race guns? You can see where this starts to get kinda sticky--sorta like ATF regulations trying to limit assault guns. Anyway, you got me curious and I popped my action back on the original stock and will try it out. LOL

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Old April 2, 2024, 10:41 AM   #37
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I look forward to your results.
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Old April 2, 2024, 11:26 AM   #38
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Even before I take it out--there is definitely some flex on the forend past about 4" to the end.
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Old April 2, 2024, 02:27 PM   #39
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I tried today at 223 yds shooting into a shifting headwind again of around 10 to 12 mph. I don't know how best to adjust to shifts of left to right cross at long range so I just shoot one position and hope for the best. I have to admit I had a hard time getting a good consistent balanced hold shooting off bag rests compared to my KRG Bravo chassis--though apart of that was probably I'm just not used to the wooden stock. I shot 10 shot groups of x-act, R-100, tenex and lapua long range and they all tended to cluster the groups in seperate "blobs"; so I decided to select the 7 innermost shots of each group to compare--x-act and R-100 came in about 1.7 MOA and the rest were well up in 2+ though not 3 for the best of 7. In other words--inconclusive. Expensive test nonetheless. : ), I think I'm going to back it down to 5 shots.
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Old April 2, 2024, 05:52 PM   #40
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Forgot to mention--I put the stock back into the Bravo chassis intending to shoot at the same spot--but construction gear had moved in so I had to move to a different spot where instead of a quartering headwind I had a quartering tailwind at about 8:30 @ 10 mph. I think that's still better than the headwind I was dealing with but only could get out to 130 yds. I shot the same ammo selections agan but limited myself to 7 shots instead of 10. The R-100 pasted all the rest by a significant margin--the others grouping about twice the size. I was certain X Act could beat the R-100; but it was not to be. I even shot 2 more groups of X Act and it still couldn't get close to the R-100, which I shot another group of to make sure the first one wasn't a fluke. The second one wasn't as tight as the first, but it still beat all the other ammo besides the R-100. The R-100 also impacts much higher than the X act--which means it probably has the extra juice to go further in good style. As always, could be just my rifle and style of shooting creating the discrepancies, but R-100 has always been the best longer range performer in my jaguar.

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Old April 2, 2024, 09:57 PM   #41
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Interesting.
Thanks for testing and sharing.
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Old April 3, 2024, 04:03 AM   #42
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Interesting.
Thanks for testing and sharing.
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Lapua's long range does well, but was always slightly behind x-act in accuracy--at long range as well. It's rated the same velocity by Lapua as far as I can tell, so I'm wondering if it's the same ammo but sorted out from x-act as having slightly more dispersion.

I'm not a comp guy so I don't know what those guys do or use, I'm beginning to wonder if it might be an advantage to use different ammo depending on the range and conditions over the course of a match? Have you seen or have knowledge of a competitor doing that?
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Old April 3, 2024, 10:20 AM   #43
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I have overheard a couple discussions suggesting changing ammo for longer stages, and have had a few discussions about it.
People do sometimes change ammo for an entire match. But almost no one wants to do it for only a portion of a match.

I do not know of anyone actually trying it, except my son.
We had a local match that was all inside 100 yd, except a club stage that was entirely 350-378 yd. He shot the normal stages with CCI SV but changed to Blazer for the longer stage, in order to have a suitable hold in the scope's reticle (a previous iteration of his 10/22, with a scope that did not have enough elevation adjustment).

It seems like it could be a good idea, until you recognize that when you're on the clock you fall back on "training" - like police in a shootout or soldiers in battle.
How you train is what you default to on the clock. Keeping in mind different dope is not a big deal for casual shooting, or even a match stage that goes smoothly. But add complicated target sequences, weird position changes, stress, a time limit, and, most importantly, a mistake, and it becomes another point of failure.

All it takes is one mistake (or unexpected distraction) on the clock, and that different dope might be ejected from the active priority processing in your brain. Mistakes snowball if you don't get back in front of them. A mistake in hold, wind call, or target sequence might turn into a snowball of pain. Most people simply do not want to have another variable to track, even with that data on a dope card and cheat sheet.

Example:
We have a local family that shoots almost every match. Three brothers, a cousin, and sometimes their wives and/or father. They are middle-of-the-pack to top level shooters. One of the younger brothers is the ringleader. He recently found that SK Rifle Match shot better in his Vudoo360 than the Center-X that they had been shooting. So *everyone* switched to the SK ammo. The dope wasn't much different, but just enough to matter. (I'm pretty sure it also didn't shoot well in at least two of the rifles, but I don't know.)
For various reasons and in various ways, each shooter ended up falling back on prior knowledge (that old dope, burned into their memories) during our last local match, and dropped a lot of shots with the new ammo. They even checked their dope with a Labradar during sight-in. But things changed when on the clock.

Every one of them knew what they had done, understood what had happened, and wished they could have had a "do-over". But that is just how it goes when you make changes of any kind - we default to training that is no longer valid. As a long term change, they'll get used to it. The SK dope will become their standard, and it will be second nature within a couple months. But if it were a constant variable, only coming into play once or twice in each match, it would continue to be a problem.

...Long-winded again. I'm falling back into old habits.
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Old April 3, 2024, 11:54 AM   #44
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I have overheard a couple discussions suggesting changing ammo for longer stages, and have had a few discussions about it.
People do sometimes change ammo for an entire match. But almost no one wants to do it for only a portion of a match.

I do not know of anyone actually trying it, except my son.
We had a local match that was all inside 100 yd, except a club stage that was entirely 350-378 yd. He shot the normal stages with CCI SV but changed to Blazer for the longer stage, in order to have a suitable hold in the scope's reticle (a previous iteration of his 10/22, with a scope that did not have enough elevation adjustment).

It seems like it could be a good idea, until you recognize that when you're on the clock you fall back on "training" - like police in a shootout or soldiers in battle.
How you train is what you default to on the clock. Keeping in mind different dope is not a big deal for casual shooting, or even a match stage that goes smoothly. But add complicated target sequences, weird position changes, stress, a time limit, and, most importantly, a mistake, and it becomes another point of failure.

All it takes is one mistake (or unexpected distraction) on the clock, and that different dope might be ejected from the active priority processing in your brain. Mistakes snowball if you don't get back in front of them. A mistake in hold, wind call, or target sequence might turn into a snowball of pain. Most people simply do not want to have another variable to track, even with that data on a dope card and cheat sheet.

Example:
We have a local family that shoots almost every match. Three brothers, a cousin, and sometimes their wives and/or father. They are middle-of-the-pack to top level shooters. One of the younger brothers is the ringleader. He recently found that SK Rifle Match shot better in his Vudoo360 than the Center-X that they had been shooting. So *everyone* switched to the SK ammo. The dope wasn't much different, but just enough to matter. (I'm pretty sure it also didn't shoot well in at least two of the rifles, but I don't know.)
For various reasons and in various ways, each shooter ended up falling back on prior knowledge (that old dope, burned into their memories) during our last local match, and dropped a lot of shots with the new ammo. They even checked their dope with a Labradar during sight-in. But things changed when on the clock.

Every one of them knew what they had done, understood what had happened, and wished they could have had a "do-over". But that is just how it goes when you make changes of any kind - we default to training that is no longer valid. As a long term change, they'll get used to it. The SK dope will become their standard, and it will be second nature within a couple months. But if it were a constant variable, only coming into play once or twice in each match, it would continue to be a problem.

...Long-winded again. I'm falling back into old habits.
I sure appreciate the detailed response, thank you. I am one of those people that "chokes" easy and then only snowball the "negativity." That's why I think you have to have a masochistic streak to compete in long range high wind 22lr.
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Old April 3, 2024, 03:20 PM   #45
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It can definitely be painful.
But when everything comes together, it is rewarding.
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Old April 3, 2024, 06:43 PM   #46
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But when everything comes together, it is rewarding.
I bet--I feel the same way when shooting a primitive wood longbow with no sight.
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