Extreme .30-30 Winchester Rounds?

[Shooter2675]

I recently acquired a Henry .30-30 Lever Action and a Hornady Lock N Load Classic press. I am interested in making custom .30-30 bullets for myself. I would like some that are super heavy but relatively slow for home defense or for camp defense when hunting, something along the lines of a 200 grain plus bullet that will stop a bear in its tracks at close range. For that application, this bullet stood out to me: http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-...GR-BTHP-Match/. Now, considering I have never seen a .30-30 round this long, chances are it isn't possible or is extremely dangerous. Now, I understand the tube magazine of the .30-30 and the round will likely be way too long, but if I were to single load it and put one in the tube, would they work? On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, what is stopping me from taking a 86 grain hornady bullet designed for a pistol and putting it into a .30-30 case. Theoretically, I should be able to get high velocities, and considering the .223 remington is a popular coyote round shooting a 55 grain bullet at 3000 FPS, wouldn't a .30-30 round at 86 grains moving 3500 fps be even better? Now like I said earlier, chances are there is something major I am missing since this doesn't seem to be too well documented online, so please pardon my ignorance as I am new to reloading and have a lot to learn.

John

[WIL TERRY]

IT is obvious that you are indeed a new reloader.
The 30-30 is old technology and you WILL NOT improve upon it's performace from the past one hundred years. It does what it can do AND NO MORE !! AND that is plenty as is !!
All the conjecture you are dreaming up is hooey and by'n'large does nothing.
The factory ammunition avaliable today is the finest 30-30 ammunition in history, PERIOD.
Read " CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD " for a serious load of edification.
And so it goes...

[Shooter2675]

Thank you for your reply, but I think you are missing the point of my post. I understand it's an old cartridge, and it's one of my favorite ones at, but I was looking at ways to spice it up. You stated you cannot improve it, but based on what I posted earlier, I think I can. Could you please tell me why I cannot do what I said? And about the factory ammo today is the best in the world, then why do people even bother reloading the .30-30 with quality components? I agree with you some I just think your last point could be improved as it implies there is no need to reload the .30-30. Sorry if I'm being rude I just wanted to know why I can't do what I want to do? Also, the sentence where you my idea is hooey and by and large does nothing, I ask you read my post again. I stated exactly why I wanted the faster, lighter round. So if you back up your opinion of why it wouldn't work, I would understand but you just saying its hooey doesn't really help me.

[dahermit]

The long Hornady 225 grain bullet is a pointed bullet. Being so, there one only be able to have one in the chamber, one in the magazine tube. It begs the question, do you want only two shots for bear?
Also, a bullet that long would have to be seated very deeply in order to work through the action.
There seems to be several obstacles to loading such a bullet for the 30-30 lever action.
If it were me and I wanted to do unusual stuff with the 30-30, I would cast and load lead bullets for it and shoot the heck out of it as per like it was originally designed.

[jmr40]

The 30-30 has been around since 1895, if there were a way to make it better someone else would have figured it out by now. A 170 gr bullet at 30-30 speeds is going to give you about as much penetration as you'll get. Somewhere I did see some factory loads using 190 gr hard cast bullets for one. The Hornady bullet in your link is a target bullet not designed to expand at all. Especially at 30-30 speeds even if you could load it singly, which I doubt.

considering the .223 remington is a popular coyote round shooting a 55 grain bullet at 3000 FPS, wouldn't a .30-30 round at 86 grains moving 3500 fps be even better?

No, not by a long shot. Speed isn't everything. Aerodynamic bullets are far more important. An 86 gr 30 caliber bullet will be a short stubby bullet with EXTREMELY poor aerodynamics. Actually a 55 gr 223 bullet isn't the best choice. Most 223 shooters are going to much longer 68-75 gr bullets to get better aerodynamics. While they start slower, they hold up much better at long range. A 190-210 gr bullet in 30 caliber would be a much better long range bullet. You need a bullet that heavy to get the aerodynamics you need.

[Gadawg88]

You need to do a good bit of self-learning before you even think about what your talking about, which is inadvisable by the way. Go to http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle and check out the load data for the 30/30. Bullet weights range from 110gn to 170gn and a max velocity of about 2500 fps with the light bullets. There are good reasons for that. As a new reloader, you need to stick to published data. Otherwise you are gonna have a "Hey y'all, watch this" moment and put yourself and anyone in the vicinity at great risk of bodily harm or death.

[Blindstitch]

Most pointed bullets won't seat deep enough in the case to be able to chamber it into the rifle. I have some 30-30 pointed rounds in 150 grain and they have clearance but I was given 300 of another style of pointed bullet and I couldn't seat them deep enough to easily chamber the rifle.

On that note I also went to lead cast round nose and like shooting them.

If I knew a secret to what you're asking I would be doing it.

[Shooter2675]

Thank you. I understand what you mean, and I will attempt to load some 190 grain per my reloading books and see what it can do. Could you single load some super high bc bullets into a .30-30 and shoot it at long ranges?

[Blindstitch]

What do you classify as long range?

[markallen]

Maybe you should just get another rfile and caliber that better suits your need.
That's why there are so many calibers they all have limits.

[jmorris]

Lots of things have been around For more than a 100 years and been improved.

Life expectancy for a male in 1900 was 46, by 1998 it was 73.

The 45-70 would be a good example in the reloading world. With a modern action it is a pretty big step forward on what you could expect out of it as a black powder round in actions of the day.

That said I haven't tried to "hot rod" a round for decades. Now that I am older I just buy something beyond the power level I want and down load it.

[Shooter2675]

Markallen,

I purchased this new rifle to fit all the needs I set, but what I posted here was more of a stretch and a hope for some extreme loads for varmints. Where I live, in Western Pennsylvnia, the woods are very thick and a short lever action is a prime gun. I used to always use my shotgun, and I will continue to when I'm in Allegheny County (no centerfires), but my new henry will be a second deer gun and just an all around fun gun.

I posted here mainly to get some insight on two things, a lighter bullet that would reach out further on a calm day and pop a coyote, and a heavier bullet for close up shots for deer (or as I mentioned earlier, bear if I ever encounter one). I have now learned from the replies I got that the extremely light round isn't good, but I still want something with a flatter trajectory than a 150 grain bullet.

As for the heavier load, I would like something along the lines of a 190-210 grain bullet that has a good BC. I would be willing to sacrifice the 5 round capacity and put one in chamber and one in tube to use the larger bullet. I think some people (and I can see why, as I was unclear) interpreted my posts as saying I wanted to turn the .30-30 into a long range sniper, which it will never be. I simply wanted some advice and insight on a couple of different loads for specific applications such as vamrint hunting. I feel the 150 grain bullets would tear apart a coyote or squirrel too much, but something smaller wouldn't.

On a different note, I read somewhere else on a forum that someone loaded cylindrical bullets into a .30-30 for a lighter load, and sort of just for the novelty, and am wondering if you've ever heard of someone doing that. Thank you, and happy reloading!

John

One more thing just to clarify... Blindstitch asked what I classify as long range, and I simpy meant longer ranges than a standard .30-30 round would reach out to, like maybe a maximum of 200-250 yards for a coyote, but likely within 200 yards.

[Blindstitch]

The Speer manual hits on the fact of why the 30-30 cant be hotrodded. It blames the thin wall of the case.

I'm sure there is a way or quality of 30-30 that can reach out and touch 300 yards but I don't try to reach anywhere near that far with my 30-30.

If I wanted to shoot say a squirrel and not totally explode it I would use a short range cast round I worked up. It involves 7 grains of greendot pushing a 130 grain projectile. It feels like a 22 but only has the speed of say 1200fps.

I also wouldn't hesitate on putting 150 grains in a coyote. For deer hunting with the 30-30 I use winchester 150 grain powerpoints and my reload rounds are a bit softer than that.

If you want something pointed and more aerodynamic I would try Hornady's 160 grain polymer tip rounds.

I run Hornady SST and Amax bullets in my 6.5 and they hold great accuracy. I believe the Amax is considered a target load.

[jmorris]

I wonder how many people that think a 30-30 is an inadequate round also think the 300 blackout is a good hunting round?

Sometimes just being old is just not cool, despite better performance.

[hartcreek]

It is more then apparent that Shooter2675 is lacking a basic knowledge of the physics involved. You need to do a whole lot of reading and go back to a highschool physics book to start. What you are suggesting is like turning a Pinto into a Cobra

[Mike / Tx]

Unfortunately there are limits to what your looking to do. Simply the nature of the caliber. While there have been advances, the pressures in which you have to work with are the biggest limiting factor. That said if you wee shooting these out of one of the bolt action models that would give you a bit more to play with, but still not a lot.

As mentioned the cast bullets would be where I also would suggest looking for your "heavy" load. Check out Castboolits and do some searches in the different forums like Hunting with CB's, or in Guns & Shooting. You will find post from folks who are already using the cast loads and be able to see what they have found before even trying them out. As to the bullets themselves, try looking over on Missouri Cast Bullets for a decent selection to use. Bear in mind that depending on the actual rifling in your barrel you might have to use a larger size than the nominal .310" that most use, and you might have to pick up an additional die to help expand the mouth of the case a bit more than usual to allow seating them properly. These are nothing of a major expense but they DO help out greatly when seating cast bullets.

For the lighter load, again your not going to reach any blistering speeds. However you CAN hit numbers that WILL effectively do what your looking to do on the critters you described. If you could find some of the Speer # 1835 HP's you might find these work out find even at the lower velocities. I have shot plenty of them out of M1 Carbines as well as my Ruger BH in 30 Carbine, and my 30-30 AI Contender. I never really tried to push them, but was still getting top end listed velocites from all of the 30 Carbines, and the Ruger, and they did work well on small critters. With the Contender I hit around 2200'ish FPS and was getting around 1" or so groups at 100yds. Granted this isn't blistering speed by any means, but this little bullet doesn't need to be hitting Mach 3 to do it's job.

If that one isn't quite right, then look back at the cast bullets again. The 150'ish grain range with a RFN on them will put a yote down very effectively especially with a solid hit. Again, do a bit of research on the Castboolit forum and you will see that they work out of proportion to what you would think.

Hope this helps.

[Salmoneye]

Loading the long bullet to any sane depth in the case will make the cartridge too long to eject...

You can single load the cartridge and close the lever/bolt...But if you need to unload, the long nose will hang in the breech, and you then have to finagle the extractor to let go of the rim in order to get the cartridge free and out...

Ask me how I know...



As pointed out...

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, and go with a flat nose heavy cast bullet...

[PA-Joe]

If you reload per the Hornady LeveRevolution data that should give you what you want and they work in tube feed magazines. I don't know if the Henry feed was changed to work with they rounds so you may want to call them. Marlin had to redesign the feed system to work with them.

[Shooter2675]

Thank you for all your help. Salmoneye, I sort of have to ask , and I am sure it could be a wonderful learning experience for us all. I like the idea of the slower loads, like at 1200 fps, for varmints, so they don't completely ruin the meat. I have now learned it would be hard to get the .30-30 to shoot any flatter, but that is not the biggest deal, as I can always use my AR-15 for yotes when not in PA, and when in PA, chances are I won't be taking any 200 yard shot.

John

[Jim Watson]

The heaviest bullet I ever heard of in .30-30 was where some old timers loaded it with the 190 grain .303 Savage bullet. Velocity wasn't high, you can only do so much with the rear lockup and thin brass, but they thought it hit harder. But you can't get the bullet any more and you can't get the powders they used.

As far as your original brainstorm, you would end up with a two-shooter for camp and home defense, when you could stick to standard loads and have six. That does not make sense to me.

The standard 170 grain is pretty well optimum for .30-30, although the Hornady rubbernose job has promise. I loaned mine to a friend whose rifle had been stolen and the combination worked as well as any, but one deer does not prove much.

If you want to single load a spitzer bullet for "long range" go right ahead.
I have shot 173 grain military match boattail spitzers from my Remington 788 bolt action .30-30 and they do pretty well. But even in the bolt action they have to be single loaded for good results, by the time they are seated deep enough to get in the box magazine, they are really encroaching on powder space.

If you want a light bullet for coyotes, blowing a .30 Mauser bullet out at high velocity is probably not The Answer. A 125 gr Sierra pointed soft point or 130 grain Speer hollowpoint will do better. Another case of treating your lever action as a single shot.

[mikld]

I'm certainly no expert, but I think you're asking more from the 30-30 than it can give. "Stop a bear in it's tracks"? I don't think there are many rounds around that will do that (mebbe some African Safari cartridges), but I wouldn't try that with my 30-06, and not even with my 30-30. The bullet you linked to in the OP is a target bullet and will punch a 30 caliber hole going in and coming out; not designed for hunting/expansion. And using pointy bullets, like all the above posts, is a no-no for a tube magazine rifle (while I haven't personally experience it, I have seen plenty of pictures and first hand reports ot the results).

If you want a "classic" cartridge for around the camp "bear protection" get a 30-06 and load it with 220 gr. round nose bullets or a 45-70 and stuff it with as large a bullet as is safe...

[Pilot]

I grew up and hunted Whitetail Deer in PA using a Marlin 336 .30-30 which I still own, and use. For relatively short range it is fine, and with the newer Hornady Leverlution ammo it extends the range a little bit, but it is still a comparatively short range round that does what it is designed to do well.

When I move to Colorado, I realized, I needed something different in caliber, so the .30-30 stayed at home for the most part. No magic bullet will turn it into a long range, flat shooting round. I am not saying the OP is trying to do this, but be aware of any rounds pressure limitations, and design purpose, and you will be fine.

[Shooter2675]

Ok, I understand what your saying, like I said, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel just seeing if I could make a flatter shooting round, which cannot be done, and I accept that. Now say I were to cast my own bullets for .30-30, what diameter bullet is known to work for a Henry .30-30? Also, what weight do you reccomend to cast? I was thinking about a 140 or 150 grain cast for decent velocities and good energy. For hunting I would likely use hornady bullets, but for target and range use, I could cast bullets for pretty cheap. If I were to gas check some 140 grain bullets, do you think I could achieve 2000 FPS? I was doing some research and was looking at some tin/antimony combinations, and thought a 5/5 mix might be best (5% tin and 5% antimony) so is fairly cheap but still has good hardness.

John

[Mike / Tx]

Before you go off over thinking the cast bullets, give those that Missouri Cast offers a try. They offer some different sizing options as well, and if they work well you can also purchase the same alloy from them that they pour the bullets with. This way it is a plus all the way around.

They will sell you a small amount for testing so you don't end up with 500 of something that doesn't work. They also have the coated bullets as well. They are very knowledgeable folks and can probably tell you exactly what you need for your rifle.

[Greg Mercurio]

I'm not condoning your experimentation so take this as it is meant. If you are hell bent to shoot varmints with a 30-30, look at .224/.308 sabot loads.

For the higher end of the spectrum with heavy bullets, please experiment in the woods, not at the range, and leave a note/will/emergency contacts, just in case. Lever actions aren't all that massively strong. Beware of exceeding published pressures.

From your post above: "I like the idea of the slower loads, like at 1200 fps, for varmints, so they don't completely ruin the meat." Seriously?