308 Winchester: Why So Popular for Long Range?

[rdavidsonjr]

Quotes: by PATHDOC
You will always find a niche cartridge that will do something better at the extreme ragged edge of performance demands, but it's a harder task to find a better all-rounder (or more to the point, one that's still being given the same level of development support). Nearest I can think of in the Western context is the .50 BMG, but that's in such a different class as regards its utilization and the sort of firearms which chamber it that direct comparison seems unwise.

QUOTES: by BART B.
That's pretty good shooting from rests using scopes and big 30 caliber cartridges whose heavy bullets buck the wind very well. All but about 14 of the 180 shots went inside the 10 inch ten ring and 104 shots went in the 5 inch X ring. They're holding an aiming area of 1/10 MOA or smaller.

PATHDOC AND BART I believe both of you are on to some of the 308 accuracy reasons that I see little of in most post on long range. There seems to be a common denominator in accuracy issues between both bullet mass and a round that is its latter 1/2 to 1/3 of maximum effective range. Of course there are are factors that I see regularly such as bullet info of which there is a ton of on the 308 for learning purposes. Also wide bullet variety and specialization specifically for long range. A magnitude of load data for easy use. Good cheaper options on actions and barrels across the counter. A cartridge that is well designed for the caliber to stabilize chamber pressures. If you study other sniper rounds you find some the same attributes.The 50 BMG for example which would still be the go to over 1500 yards if the Geneva Convention had not labeled it as inhumane as just a sniper round and it can only be used as a anti material round. That is the reason for the development of the 338 Lapua to give a round that can project more mass than the 30 cal. at proper speed with proper barrel twist to reach ranges exceeding 2500 yards with pin point accuracy as a sniper round. another factor not regularly talked about in post is the time in flight that it takes a bullet to totally stabilize in flight. My old idea that the flatter the gun shot the more accurate if it was at long range was totally wrong. A bullet is more stable in the latter part of its effective range.The max effective range with the 308 with a 175 grain bullet is 1421 yards. My son in the Marine Corp has told me for the extended time he was over a range that the M 16 5.56 that all Marines are required to qualify on that he has seen this proved at a high percentage . He said that 90 % shot in the 4& 5 scores at 500 yards but scored their lowest at 300. At 100 and 200 the scores were only slightly better than 300 but still below the 500 scores. The conclusion was that at 300 the bullet was at the top of its arc and flattening out and not yet perfectly stabilized. At 500 it was stabilized and on a consistent descent.

[reynolds357]

I guess it is popular because the ones shooting it have never shot the 6.5 X 284 or the .284 Winchester.

[rdavidsonjr]

Can't argue with you on that I am still trying to make my mind up. In talking to my son he said the 6.5 x 284 is certainly in the hunt but his perspective is a little different than others. Training someone how to take advantage of a caliber is different than learning for yourself. Not everyone puts the effort into it. He said he can teach a complete idiot everything he needs to know without wasting a lot of time to be effective with the 308. Overall cost for just bench shooting rather than competition is the other factor. It seems with improvements in the 6.5 bullet BC that the caliber is taking some of the edge at times. The one thing that does crop up in all sniper rounds is bullet mass bucking elements I just don't have enough data to make a sure fire argument one way or the other. I do welcome anything I can hear on the 6.5 though.

[old roper]

Bart B, I'm having hard time finding that record you posted about maybe you can help where it's at, I'm assuming it team LR.

http://compete.nra.org/national-records.aspx

[rdavidsonjr]

I also just posted a lot of what I found on the post title most accurate 1000 yard deer caliber. I welcome any info in either post on the 6.5 x 284 or 308 or 260 calibers. Thanks!

[Bart B.]

rdavidsonjr, does the USMC qual course have the same size targets at each range and is the rifle shot from the steadiest postion (prone) for each one? I think the longer range ones subtend larger angles and are shot at from more stable positions; both contribute to better scores at greater distances. That's been the case with NRA bullseye targets used in competition for decades.

I ask because it's been proved for decades that accuracy increases its subtended angle as range increases; typically 10% to 15% for each 100 yards past the first one. Observing benchrest aggregate group records for 100, 200 and 300 yards proves that; each range groups sizes are bigger in MOA's shot.

And bullets are typically well stabilized by the time they go 100 yards down range. All bullets become less stable at longer ranges as their veocity slows down approaching the speed of sound. All of which is why the military changed their long range 7.62 ammo from a 168-gr. bullet that went subsonic at about 800+ yards to a 175-gr. one that stayed supersonic through 1000. Bullets slowing down towards Mach 1 is one contributing factor of why accuracy in MOA decreases (bigger MOA) as range increases. And the more they slow down, the more they drift sideways from subtle cross winds.

Note also that a recent test of sniper rifle cartridges by top ranked long range folks showed the .300 Win. Mag. produced the highest number of first-shot on target results up through 1500 yards. Also shot the smallest test groups. But the military picked the .338 Lap Mag because they wanted it.

Go to /Sierra Bullets' web site and check the BC's of their 26, 28 and 30 caliber heavy bullets. The differences are insignificant
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Reynolds, the half dozen or so folks that made the 6.5x.284 popular in long range matches also used the 6.5x.308 (commercially, the .260 Rem. along with some 24 caliber cartridges) to make it popular in short to mid range matches. They all used to use the .308 Win. for either as well as 30 caliber magnums at long range. They all produced equal accuracy as tested in the rifles, but the smaller caliber ones with lighter bullets had less recoil during barrel time and therefore were able to shoot more accurate when shot slung up in prone with lighter bullets that bucked the wind about as good.

That small group of high power rifle competitors have won the most matches and set the most records of any other group the same size. They started back in the 60's using the .308 Win. to move the .30-06 users to switch to the .308. When better match bullets were available in 28, 26 and 24 calibers, they began using them when appropriate and legal by the rules.

[Bart B.]

Old Roper, yes, it's Team; different ones depending on Program and Course of Fire.

Start with the top, "Firearm Type" drop-down menu selecting "Rifle."

Next, use the second drop-down, "Discipline" then scroll it all the way down to its bottom and select either:
. . . "HIGH POWER RIFLE (62)" for rifles shot slung up in prone without rests.
. . . "F-CLASS OPEN (Rule 3.4(a)) (60) for F-class open shot from prone using rests.

Then use the third drop-down menu "Program" and select the team type choice.

Now use the fourth drop down, "Course" and scroll down to select the particular course of fire.

When all four drop downs have your selected choice, click on the "Search" screen button.

The record scores show up for each division of competitors along with the dates they were fired.

[rdavidsonjr]

Bart B. I will have to get back to you on the answer but your point brings an explanation into play that had slipped my mind. It is hard to communicate with my son due to USMC demands on his time and of course our time difference. Thanks greatly for your input , the wisdom of aged experience is irreplaceable in getting to the bottom of a debate.

[old roper]

Bart B, I know how to pull up records

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Like many other military designed cartridge much of its word of mouth advertisement and following originated from those who Served and were the creators of its overall popularity. As you know the military spares no expense in their small arms development. Stands to reason you employ 2-300,000 fellows and give your employees all the same tool /cartridge. Its bound to become popular with everyone else involved in Shooting Sports also. I consider the 308 to be just plain Universal. Accurate to a point and acceptable accuracy there after. That's the usual experience one can count on by those who shoot long distance as a recreation or as their job. But the 308 like any other cartridge does have its limits. Only one other way I know of to make this cartridge even more popular. Change its name to: 308 Universal. How's that sound._

[rdavidsonjr]

Point well taken and understood. I have yet to determine if everyone in love with the 308 is from a military beginning and lack of desire to change and learn a knew round even my son. Maybe it is somewhat sentimental if the 308 has kepted you alive in war situations.Or is it actually better than most and only equaled by few in long range. I see arguments that the 30 cal bucks wind and elements making if more stable then I see that there is no difference if BC is a equal in bucking the elements by guys that should know. Sometimes in one post I see the same guy make one point only to later argue the other point in another post.

[Bart B.]

Old Roper, that 1796-119X Palma Team record's shown when the drop-down's are set up as follows:

Rifle
HIGH POWER RIFLE [62]
Four Man Team
PALMA TEAM COURSE - METALLIC SIGHTS

[Jimro]

I have yet to determine if everyone in love with the 308 is from a military beginning and lack of desire to change and learn a knew round even my son. Maybe it is somewhat sentimental if the 308 has kepted you alive in war situations.Or is it actually better than most and only equaled by few in long range. I see arguments that the 30 cal bucks wind and elements making if more stable then I see that there is no difference if BC is a equal in bucking the elements by guys that should know. Sometimes in one post I see the same guy make one point only to later argue the other point in another post.

Cartridges become popular because of availability of firearms that use it, which is why the 30-30 is still popular and the 303 Savage is difficult to find, why the 300 H&H Magnum has few factory offerings and the 300 Winchester Magnum has plentiful factory offerings.

In the case of the 30-30, Winchester will making leverguns (and Marlin, and Henry, and Ubertti, etc) as long as they turn a profit. In the case of the 30-06, two generations of men came home from war with intimate familiarity with the round and were able to buy quality surplus rifles or new civilian rifles off the shelf. Same story with the 308.

The 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag are also popular, but they had to come about the completely civilian route, and they did based on their originating companies based on advertising and more advertising. The 300 Win Mag, like the 30-30, been pressed into service (the 30-30 was issued to some seagoing support units in WWII). The Mk248 Mod0 sniper ammunition in 300 Win Mag is highly regarded by the snipers who use it, and everyone who gets the choice I've known chooses the 300 Win Mag over the 308 as a sniper round from a bolt rifle.

That being said, the semi auto sniper rifles are all 308 (save for the Barrett) and do quite well for themselves.

History is littered with good rounds that didn't get adopted widespread despite being quite desirable from a performance standpoint. The 6.5 Arisaka, the 280 Ross, the 8x63 Swede come to the top of my head.

So I can't tell you all the reasons why the 308 is popular other than it is plentiful and adequate for nearly every purpose in the places it is plentiful.

Jimro

[old roper]

I got it Bart, Bad thing we both are posting about is custom rifles and record you where post about were shot by.

Michelle Gallagher,Nancy Tompkins,Bryan Litz,Bob Gustin

[rdavidsonjr]

Bart B.I'm not sure I fully grasp what your sayingin the second paragraph. I talked to him and sometimes it hard to get enough time to talk with him to get full details but I got the questions you asked answered. What I didn't catch in his first discussion is that the 100 and 200 had nothing to do with what he was seeing because of exactly the points your speaking of. The 100 is prone and the 200 is sitting, kneeling and standing. He said that at those two ranges he could not make an accurate comparison because of the difference in position and other factors plus those ranges seem to fall within the normal expectations. He said at 300 it is prone and sitting and 500 is prone. He also stated that for the record a lot of them due to facility factors shot better sitting than prone which is not the case other places in more comfortable conditions we are talking about 29 Palms. He said you are correct about the sizing of the targets. He also said that he is not talking about scoring but actual groups at 300 and 500 in the prone position both places. What they are seeing about 90 % of the time is groups at 500 a 10-12"approx. and the same soldier all over the paper at 300 some as bad as 25". He said he has shot it himself several times comparing prone to prone and prone to sitting which he says is his better position. The results were very similar. He has had a few opinions on why but he and several others at the range don't know why this is happening at such a consistent rate. He had 5 soldiers 2 days ago it happened with everyone of them. One guy obliterated the 500 and barely kept it on the paper at 300. He said in 5 1/2 years it is so consistent that it escapes reasoning. You have a lot of experience what do you think? I have him emailing the ballistics on the round and a pic to see what their using.

I won't disagree with you on the accuracy of the 300 Win mag for the person that can handle the recoil and he said he wouldn't either. He said if the 300 would cover the job as effectively over ranges from 1000 to 2400 as the 338 Lapua it would have been selected because it is well below half the cost. He said the info he has is that the 300 will not cover that range as effectively as the 338. And he again confirmed that the 50 bmg is a job specific round that can only be used now for a anti material round because of the Geneva convention rule against its use as inhumane for personnel only sniper purposes. When he and his team goes out for recon duty he said a 308 sniper rifle is carried for personnel duty up to around 1000 yards and either a 338 or a 50 bmg depending on the expected job at hand.

And to those that say it is bogus about stabilization and that the bullet is already stabilized at 100 yards I can see where my son gets his thoughts on that. He sent me a training power point on the 5.56 and I watched the simulated stability on a chart style diagram both side view and head on through the whole 500 yards and I see that it is never totally stabilized in flight.

Thanks for your input Bart B.

[Bart B.]

If high power rifle competitors using M16 and AR15 platforms shooting 22 caliber bullets from 100 through 1000 yards have excellent bullet stabilization in that range band, then what the USMC's using you're referencing is totally wrong for the bullet's muzzle velocity and rifling twist. I doubt that's the case.

To say nothing of the sub 1/3 MOA groups benchresters shoot with 22 caliber bullets from 100 to 300 yards which pretty much means they're very well stabilized with the velocity and twist rate they leave at.

I'd like to see that power point based example of bullet stabilization. That simulated stability on a chart style diagram both side view and head on through the whole 500 yards may show a tiny bit of instability which all bullets have; they're all unbalanced to some microscopic amount when fired. But it cannot be excessive else the competitors would not shoot as good as they do.

How can a bullet at 300 yards that's way off from group center in some direction know that and change its trajectory back towards group center at 500 yards? Think about this.

[Jimro]

He said that at those two ranges he could not make an accurate comparison because of the difference in position and other factors plus those ranges seem to fall within the normal expectations. He said at 300 it is prone and sitting and 500 is prone. He also stated that for the record a lot of them due to facility factors shot better sitting than prone which is not the case other places in more comfortable conditions we are talking about 29 Palms. He said you are correct about the sizing of the targets. He also said that he is not talking about scoring but actual groups at 300 and 500 in the prone position both places. What they are seeing about 90 % of the time is groups at 500 a 10-12"approx. and the same soldier all over the paper at 300 some as bad as 25". He said he has shot it himself several times comparing prone to prone and prone to sitting which he says is his better position. The results were very similar. He has had a few opinions on why but he and several others at the range don't know why this is happening at such a consistent rate. He had 5 soldiers 2 days ago it happened with everyone of them. One guy obliterated the 500 and barely kept it on the paper at 300. He said in 5 1/2 years it is so consistent that it escapes reasoning. You have a lot of experience what do you think? I have him emailing the ballistics on the round and a pic to see what their using.

25" at 300 is an 8.3 MOA group. 12" at 500 is a 2.2 MOA group, which if centered on the target is a "clean" set of 10s on a High Power Range. Bullets don't tighten up 6.1 minutes between 300 and 500. The USMC uses different targets for 300 and 500 which could account for aiming differences between shooters. The other major difference is that the 300 is rapid fire and the 500 is slow fire.

The Army doesn't change targets with distance, and our popup qualification is "hit/miss" without grouping so the only Soldiers who work on groups are SDMs, and I've never seen an M16A2 shoot 8.3 minutes at 300 even with M855.

Jimro

[rdavidsonjr]

I know and he knows that a bullet group does not pull back towards center between 300 and 500 and yes the bullet scores between 100 and 200 are according to him though not totally stabilized they are consistent with expected results. When he first bounced the stabilization idea off me he was merely thinking out loud pulling from training to come with a logical explanation for the 300 and 500 results which are not even close to expected results. He did explain the slow and rapid fire rate and methods used and the timing of them for consistent grouping. And after he and I looked at the stabilization on the 5.56 video it is obvious that what your saying is true. I merely posted that later because Brian had posted similar in another post and what Jimro posted was consistent with stabilization training material on the 5.56.



Maybe Jimro is on to something on target size affecting the shooters ability to get an equal sight picture at both ranges i don't know. My son did't feel this was the case because he felt the 3x25 trijicon offered enough picture magnification to make sighting differences a not so huge factor. May be it has to do with the rapid fire but he explained the disciplined succession used in rapid fire and he said he didn't think for himself that it answered for the inconsistencies he was seeing. I personally don't know I haven't seen all the facts and I'm not there but I 'm sure if there is an idea that would solve the mystery he would be appreciative.



I know why he brought it up is because he has been qualifying shooters on the 5.56 in the immediately recent weeks. He is extremely analytic and a perfectionist. He can't stand especially when it comes to firearms to have something that he is using or training that he can't explain and or fix. Jimro I think one or both of your reasons are at least part of the explanation even though he insists that he does think it could cause it to be that far out of reason as what he consistently sees. I am not sure what he is basing his opinion own relating to his on personal experiences.I don't think he regularly runs into things that he can't overcome and this one is puzzling to him because I can tell it isn't adding up to him. I don't personally think there is an anomaly with this round it has been used to long I think for that but I am no expert.



I think usually in life I have found that confusing issues are very often uncomplicated when you sort it all out usually humans are adding their on complications. I agree with what your saying on stabilization Bart but Jimro is right according to the training aid (perfect) stability never happens in the 5.56. Also Jimro you are correct on the bullet they are using the M855 .Also qualifications are scored and they do use different size targets as you say and he is paying attention to groups only because he feels he is seeing something that doesn't add up and since he is overseeing a lot of this he is able to make a lot of mental notes of what he is seeing when scoring. Thanks for the input

[rdavidsonjr]

Thanks for the education and have a great day

[reynolds357]

I have heard the bullet stabilization argument for years. The only problem with it is that if the bullets were truly unstable from muzzle to 150 then they would have wandered off target prior to their stabilization. At the magic moment of stabilization, they would still be off target. The group can not open up and then close down.

[Buzzcook]

The 50 BMG for example which would still be the go to over 1500 yards if the Geneva Convention had not labeled it as inhumane as just a sniper round and it can only be used as a anti material round.

AFAIK that isn't true. The Barret and the M2 have been and still are used against individuals.

Don't know how that idea got started. Armies have used artillery as direct fire weapons for centuries.
In the first Iraq war there is lots of video of the Western forces using .50bmg and 20mm and bigger ammo against Iraqi troops.

[Jimro]

I won't disagree with you on the accuracy of the 300 Win mag for the person that can handle the recoil and he said he wouldn't either. He said if the 300 would cover the job as effectively over ranges from 1000 to 2400 as the 338 Lapua it would have been selected because it is well below half the cost. He said the info he has is that the 300 will not cover that range as effectively as the 338. And he again confirmed that the 50 bmg is a job specific round that can only be used now for a anti material round because of the Geneva convention rule against its use as inhumane for personnel only sniper purposes. When he and his team goes out for recon duty he said a 308 sniper rifle is carried for personnel duty up to around 1000 yards and either a 338 or a 50 bmg depending on the expected job at hand.

The 300 Win Mag is for planning purposes a 1500 meter round using Mk248Mod1 ammunition (a 220gr SMK at 2850 fps). The Mk316Mod0 load is a 1000 meter round (175 MK at 2640fps in a 24" barrel).

The bullets can go further, but this is the planning factor for ballistics based on when the bullets start going subsonic based on standard atmospherics. At altitudes this changes things, one of my snipers had good data out to 1400 meters with M118LR gained at the Yakima Training Center.

The 338 Lapua really maxes out at a mile, 1600 meters, mainly due to internal scope elevation although things like shimming, altitude, and angle have allowed it to make shots significantly longer.

The 50 BMG with a 750 A-Max bullet is no slouch in the long range department. However the US military does not use the 750 A-Max. Standard M33 ball is generally used, and the bullet begins to destabilize due to atmospherics around the 1400 meter mark.

These are simply planning factors, reality will always make the final call.

Jimro

[rdavidsonjr]

Buzzcook I was not referring to the past wars I am referring to recent changes for rules of engagement.


I'm not sure what you mean by AFAIK.

[rdavidsonjr]

Jimro all that your stating seems to fall into alignment with what my son said . He stated the 300 is extremely accurate out to the 1500 area but he said that he was told that while the 338 was very comparable at most jobs it had advantages at others and was the determining factor in selection I suppose there will always be other opinions.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Ease up, folks.