Felt recoil

Metal god · September 11, 2012, 04:25 PM

Why is this term used . Let say my ruger americn rifle ( 308 )has 17 lbs of felt recoil . What part of the recoil is not felt ? It sure seems to me I feel all of it . Better yet I love perceived felt recoil . You just preceived the gun broke your collar bone

but it really just hit you like a fluffy pillow .

whats up with that .

Metal god · September 11, 2012, 04:54 PM

Im sorry if asked the question wrong but the tread has nothing to do with me or how much I think my 308 kicks . I just used it as an example . I really would like to know why the term felt recoil is used , I just tried to ask it in a funny way .

Lets say it a little different . If a gun has 20 lbs of felt recoil . Can it really have 30 lbs of total recoil and the shooter only feels part of it ? Is that what felt recoil means ?

gwnorth · September 11, 2012, 05:07 PM

I've always taken the term to mean one's reaction to the recoil of a particular gun. That is why it is such a personal thing and has to be individually experienced. It cannot be described - it is a purely subjective response to recoil and varies with the shooter and with the gun (even for firearms in the same caliber).

mete · September 11, 2012, 05:17 PM

Yes . You can measure 'recoil energy' and 'recoil velocity' but you can't measure 'felt recoil'.
Felt recoil depends on stock design, how well the stock fits you ,recoil pad ,and an individual sensitivity to recoil.Stock fit is important .If it doesn't fit you the recoil will appear worse.The best recoil pads have material that absorbs recoil very well .Steel buttpads don't help at all.
Getting used to recoil is a good idea. Start with reduced loads and gradually increase to full loads. stand leaning forward a bit .

tobnpr · September 11, 2012, 06:46 PM

"Felt recoil" will vary greatly depending on the weight of the stick.

A lightweight gun like the American, at 6 lbs., will not dampen the recoil like a heavier ten or twelve pound rifle.

Lightweight rifles are great for toting around, but lousy for "felt recoil"...and can be downright punishing in magnum calibers.

mapsjanhere · September 11, 2012, 07:13 PM

Felt recoil is used as recoil is not just a property of the cartridge but of the cartridge/gun combination. As impulse is preserved via
M(rifle)*V(rifle)=M(bullet)*V(bullet)
your recoil energy comes out as
E(recoil)=V(bullet)^2*M(bullet)^2 / 2*M(rifle)
Now you can also add a perceived recoil that takes into account thinks like recoil dampeners (that don't change the recoil energy but stretch the hit, taking it from a hard kick to a forceful push) and recoil pads (that absorb parts of the energy but don't do much in stretching it out).

jmr40 · September 11, 2012, 07:26 PM

Recoil is a function of math. There is a formula involving

Bullet weight
Rifle weight
muzzle velocity
weight of the powder charge.

You can plug in the numbers here and find the guns actual recoil

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

But 2 guns of equal weight, shooting exactly the same ammo may "feel" different for a variety of reasons. A quality recoil pad can make a huge difference. Stock shape comes into play. Stocks with a lot of drop designed for iron sights have more muzzle flip and often feel as if they recoil more because the stock comes up and hits your cheekbone. A straighter stock recoils straight back. A wide fat butt pad spreads the recoil out over a wider portion of your shoulder than a smaller pad. Many synthetic stocks have a tiny bit of flex and feel like they recoil less than wood or Kevlar stocks.

A gas operated semi-auto uses gas pressure to operate the action. The actual recoil is exactly the same, but it is spread out over a few extra thousands of a second making recoil seem softer.

jmr40 · September 11, 2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Lightweight rifles are great for toting around, but lousy for "felt recoil"...and can be downright punishing in magnum calibers.

Lightweight rifles with well designed stocks and modern hi-tech recoil pads are amazingly good at soaking up recoil. Shooting form is also a huge factor. Many small guys are much less affected by heavy kicking guns than big guys. The secret is to relax and let your upper body give as the gun recoils. Small guys do this instinctively. Big guys who lock down and try to fight the gun receive the full force of the recoil.

Art Eatman · September 11, 2012, 07:46 PM

jmr40 has a good explanation.

While two rifles may have equal numbers for recoil impact, they may be vastly different as to how each feels to one's shoulder: Recoil pad, fit of the rifle to the shooter's body dimensions, etc. Shooting position can make a big difference. A rifle may be unpleasant at the bench rest, but not bad with an offhand shot in the field.

So, "recoil" cam be expressed in numbers. "Felt recoil" is how it feels on one's shoulder.

tobnpr · September 11, 2012, 10:22 PM

Well, depends on shooting stance.
If I'm shooting prone off a loaded bipod, there's no "give" to the upper body. Rifle 90 degrees to the shoulders and tight so there's no hop.
Different than shooting say, kneeling supported, where the upper body can move and absorb recoil.

Newton's third law of motion says a heavier stick will always absorb recoil forces better than a lighter one...all other factors being equal.

darkgael · September 12, 2012, 01:35 AM

One element of "felt" recoil that should be mentioned is body type. Chances are that a rifleman who is 5' 10" and 140 lbs is going to have a different reaction to the recoil of a particular gun/load than a shooter who is fifty pounds heavier or both taller and heavier.
Pete

sc928porsche · September 14, 2012, 12:17 AM

+1 Art Eatman

Metal god · September 14, 2012, 01:33 AM

Well thanks guys that makes alot more sense . I do understand it better .

shane256 · September 14, 2012, 01:15 PM

Also... your state of mind... as the old saying goes, felt recoil is a lot less when there's hair in the scope!

Strafer Gott · September 14, 2012, 01:53 PM

The fit and design of the stock matters most. That's the part that interfaces with the body. Cheek pieces are a good example. Some bite, some don't.
Taking account of how your body reacts under recoil, minor changes in angle or radius, changes the way your cheek weld couples, or uncouples as the case may be. A good stockmaker has to take into account multiple variables.

Metal god · September 14, 2012, 02:33 PM

Thats is interesting . I am a big guy 6'4" 270 lbs and I do lock in . More so on the guns with the heavier recoil then lets say my ARs . I do most certainly tighten up when shooting the bigger guns . I do try to relax but the last time I got real relaxed be for a shot the scope jumped back and hit my glasses

. It did not bite me and I barely felt it make contact but my shades were crooked after the shot. Needless to say I tightened back up again . I will work on letting my body absorb more of the recoil and less of my face

P.S. That last line is me being funny , kinda like the first post

jmr40 · September 14, 2012, 05:38 PM

You still have to have the butt snugly against the shoulder. But try to let your upper body move backwards with recoil. I try to sit straight up on a bench, or when shooting standing and let my body roll with the recoil. Especially with hard kicking guns. I'm right handed and my right shoulder will often move back several inches as I bend or twist at the waist. Shooting prone is the hardest. There is no place for your body to give and you get the full effect of the recoil.

tobnpr · September 15, 2012, 02:25 PM

Yup. Consistent moderate pressure, most recommend about 4-5 lbs or so loaded into your shoulder.

The problem with shooting off a bench (which I do most of the time) is not getting the shot off properly, it's avoiding the "hop" of the rifle because I use bipods. If shooting off a front rest, with a correct style stock and rear bags, you can let the rifle free-recoil with lighter calibers.

Proper form dictates that if you were to draw a straight line between your shoulders, the rifle would intersect that line at exactly ninety degrees.
This means the recoil force is straight back- and not off at an angle to your body. When shooting long range I try to spot my shots when possible so I don't need to bug one of my sons to do it for me...
The design of some benches make it difficult to get straight behind the rifle.

If you can't, and your shoulders aren't square to the rifle, the recoil force kicks the butt of the rifle sideways and slides one way or the other, instead of straight back. This makes it impossible to spot the shot because the rifle has hopped off to side and you can't re-acquire the target quickly enough...

sc928porsche · September 16, 2012, 11:44 AM

To prevent 300itus (scope crease) be sure to have the rifle firmly in the pocket and a very solid cheek weld. You want your head to move with the stock of the rifle. Wouldn't it be nice if they manufactured scopes with adjustable eye relief.

math teacher · September 16, 2012, 06:01 PM

No one seems to have mentioned the time factor. Many shotguns have a tremendous amount of recoil, but some such as gas operated simi-automatics spread the recoil out over a longer period of time making it feel like less recoil. More of a shove than a jab. That is the concept behind a number of recoil reducing devices.

September 11, 2012, 04:25 PM	#1
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Felt recoil Why is this term used . Let say my ruger americn rifle ( 308 )has 17 lbs of felt recoil . What part of the recoil is not felt ? It sure seems to me I feel all of it . Better yet I love perceived felt recoil . You just preceived the gun broke your collar bone but it really just hit you like a fluffy pillow . whats up with that .

September 11, 2012, 05:17 PM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Yes . You can measure 'recoil energy' and 'recoil velocity' but you can't measure 'felt recoil'. Felt recoil depends on stock design, how well the stock fits you ,recoil pad ,and an individual sensitivity to recoil.Stock fit is important .If it doesn't fit you the recoil will appear worse.The best recoil pads have material that absorbs recoil very well .Steel buttpads don't help at all. Getting used to recoil is a good idea. Start with reduced loads and gradually increase to full loads. stand leaning forward a bit . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

September 11, 2012, 07:13 PM	#6
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Felt recoil is used as recoil is not just a property of the cartridge but of the cartridge/gun combination. As impulse is preserved via M(rifle)V(rifle)=M(bullet)V(bullet) your recoil energy comes out as E(recoil)=V(bullet)^2M(bullet)^2 / 2M(rifle) Now you can also add a perceived recoil that takes into account thinks like recoil dampeners (that don't change the recoil energy but stretch the hit, taking it from a hard kick to a forceful push) and recoil pads (that absorb parts of the energy but don't do much in stretching it out). __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

September 12, 2012, 01:35 AM	#11
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Felt or perceived One element of "felt" recoil that should be mentioned is body type. Chances are that a rifleman who is 5' 10" and 140 lbs is going to have a different reaction to the recoil of a particular gun/load than a shooter who is fifty pounds heavier or both taller and heavier. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

September 14, 2012, 12:17 AM	#12
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	+1 Art Eatman __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

September 11, 2012, 04:54 PM	#2
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Im sorry if asked the question wrong but the tread has nothing to do with me or how much I think my 308 kicks . I just used it as an example . I really would like to know why the term felt recoil is used , I just tried to ask it in a funny way . Lets say it a little different . If a gun has 20 lbs of felt recoil . Can it really have 30 lbs of total recoil and the shooter only feels part of it ? Is that what felt recoil means ?

September 11, 2012, 05:07 PM	#3
gwnorth Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 692	I've always taken the term to mean one's reaction to the recoil of a particular gun. That is why it is such a personal thing and has to be individually experienced. It cannot be described - it is a purely subjective response to recoil and varies with the shooter and with the gun (even for firearms in the same caliber).

September 11, 2012, 06:46 PM	#5
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	"Felt recoil" will vary greatly depending on the weight of the stick. A lightweight gun like the American, at 6 lbs., will not dampen the recoil like a heavier ten or twelve pound rifle. Lightweight rifles are great for toting around, but lousy for "felt recoil"...and can be downright punishing in magnum calibers.

September 11, 2012, 07:26 PM	#7
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	Recoil is a function of math. There is a formula involving Bullet weight Rifle weight muzzle velocity weight of the powder charge. You can plug in the numbers here and find the guns actual recoil http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp But 2 guns of equal weight, shooting exactly the same ammo may "feel" different for a variety of reasons. A quality recoil pad can make a huge difference. Stock shape comes into play. Stocks with a lot of drop designed for iron sights have more muzzle flip and often feel as if they recoil more because the stock comes up and hits your cheekbone. A straighter stock recoils straight back. A wide fat butt pad spreads the recoil out over a wider portion of your shoulder than a smaller pad. Many synthetic stocks have a tiny bit of flex and feel like they recoil less than wood or Kevlar stocks. A gas operated semi-auto uses gas pressure to operate the action. The actual recoil is exactly the same, but it is spread out over a few extra thousands of a second making recoil seem softer.

September 11, 2012, 07:46 PM	#9
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	jmr40 has a good explanation. While two rifles may have equal numbers for recoil impact, they may be vastly different as to how each feels to one's shoulder: Recoil pad, fit of the rifle to the shooter's body dimensions, etc. Shooting position can make a big difference. A rifle may be unpleasant at the bench rest, but not bad with an offhand shot in the field. So, "recoil" cam be expressed in numbers. "Felt recoil" is how it feels on one's shoulder.

September 11, 2012, 10:22 PM	#10
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Well, depends on shooting stance. If I'm shooting prone off a loaded bipod, there's no "give" to the upper body. Rifle 90 degrees to the shoulders and tight so there's no hop. Different than shooting say, kneeling supported, where the upper body can move and absorb recoil. Newton's third law of motion says a heavier stick will always absorb recoil forces better than a lighter one...all other factors being equal.

September 14, 2012, 01:33 AM	#13
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Well thanks guys that makes alot more sense . I do understand it better .

September 14, 2012, 01:15 PM	#14
shane256 Member Join Date: September 13, 2012 Posts: 22	Also... your state of mind... as the old saying goes, felt recoil is a lot less when there's hair in the scope!

September 14, 2012, 01:53 PM	#15
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	The fit and design of the stock matters most. That's the part that interfaces with the body. Cheek pieces are a good example. Some bite, some don't. Taking account of how your body reacts under recoil, minor changes in angle or radius, changes the way your cheek weld couples, or uncouples as the case may be. A good stockmaker has to take into account multiple variables.

September 14, 2012, 02:33 PM	#16
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	JMr40 Thats is interesting . I am a big guy 6'4" 270 lbs and I do lock in . More so on the guns with the heavier recoil then lets say my ARs . I do most certainly tighten up when shooting the bigger guns . I do try to relax but the last time I got real relaxed be for a shot the scope jumped back and hit my glasses . It did not bite me and I barely felt it make contact but my shades were crooked after the shot. Needless to say I tightened back up again . I will work on letting my body absorb more of the recoil and less of my face P.S. That last line is me being funny , kinda like the first post

September 14, 2012, 05:38 PM	#17
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	You still have to have the butt snugly against the shoulder. But try to let your upper body move backwards with recoil. I try to sit straight up on a bench, or when shooting standing and let my body roll with the recoil. Especially with hard kicking guns. I'm right handed and my right shoulder will often move back several inches as I bend or twist at the waist. Shooting prone is the hardest. There is no place for your body to give and you get the full effect of the recoil.

September 15, 2012, 02:25 PM	#18
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Yup. Consistent moderate pressure, most recommend about 4-5 lbs or so loaded into your shoulder. The problem with shooting off a bench (which I do most of the time) is not getting the shot off properly, it's avoiding the "hop" of the rifle because I use bipods. If shooting off a front rest, with a correct style stock and rear bags, you can let the rifle free-recoil with lighter calibers. Proper form dictates that if you were to draw a straight line between your shoulders, the rifle would intersect that line at exactly ninety degrees. This means the recoil force is straight back- and not off at an angle to your body. When shooting long range I try to spot my shots when possible so I don't need to bug one of my sons to do it for me... The design of some benches make it difficult to get straight behind the rifle. If you can't, and your shoulders aren't square to the rifle, the recoil force kicks the butt of the rifle sideways and slides one way or the other, instead of straight back. This makes it impossible to spot the shot because the rifle has hopped off to side and you can't re-acquire the target quickly enough...

September 16, 2012, 11:44 AM	#19
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	To prevent 300itus (scope crease) be sure to have the rifle firmly in the pocket and a very solid cheek weld. You want your head to move with the stock of the rifle. Wouldn't it be nice if they manufactured scopes with adjustable eye relief. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

September 16, 2012, 06:01 PM	#20
math teacher Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Location: Southwest WA Coast Posts: 558	No one seems to have mentioned the time factor. Many shotguns have a tremendous amount of recoil, but some such as gas operated simi-automatics spread the recoil out over a longer period of time making it feel like less recoil. More of a shove than a jab. That is the concept behind a number of recoil reducing devices.