Radom VIS P-35

Dino. · June 20, 2011, 05:13 PM

I just received my Radom VIS P-35 today and thought I'd share a couple pics.
The first thing I noticed when I held the gun were the great ergonomics.
Condition is really good for a WWII pistol. Original finish, all matching numbers, nazi markings, and the barrel has strong rifling.

I can't wait to take it to the range.

TCL · June 20, 2011, 06:56 PM

Looks very much like a 1911. What are the two levers at the rear of the slide and frame?

jonnyc · June 20, 2011, 08:23 PM

The lever on the slide safely lowers the hammer, and the lever on the frame is for field stripping.
You will love your Radom, they are truly a pleasure to shoot.

James K · June 20, 2011, 11:40 PM

There has been a lot of BS about that pistol, mainly that it is a copy of the Browning High Power and that FN engineers set up the factory in Poland. Neither is true. The gun, as TCL notes, was based more on the 1911 than on anything from FN, and the Poles really did design and make the pistol themselves, with no help from any outsiders.

When the Germans took over Poland, they continued making that pistol, giving it the German designation P.35(p). The (p) is for Polnisch, to distinguish it from the P.35(b), which was the Browning High Power, (b) being for Belgium.

They are excellent guns and very accurate. As noted, what looks to 1911 users like a manual safety is a dismount lever; there is no manual safety as such.

Jim

gyvel · June 21, 2011, 08:37 AM

The only feature it has in common with the Hi-Power is the camming barrel. As Jim said, everything else is pure 1911.

The one novel feature of the Vis 35 is the recoil spring set up. It is a captive unit with an internal buffer spring in addition to the outer recoil spring.

For some reason, the firing pins seem to be the one weak point of the gun, so I recommend that you don't do a lot of dry firing.

**Mike Irwin** · June 21, 2011, 08:52 AM

NEVER take the captive recoil spring apart.

It's a true pain in the butt to get it back together again.

You can do it, but it's difficult and requires some ingenuity and a lot of precision.

I've had my Radom since the early 1980s. The first semi-auto I ever bought (Dad had to buy it for me, I was underage), and for the princely sum of $125.

I've shot it a lot over the years, but unfortunately the ejector has started skipping over the case rim, so it's no longer reliable. I keep meaning to get a new one, but haven't.

It's a pleasure to shoot, though. It's heavy for its size, so recoil is mild. And it's accurate as all get out, and with a very decent trigger for a military handgun.

carguychris · June 21, 2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

The lever on the slide safely lowers the hammer, and the lever on the frame is for field stripping.

Quote:

...what looks to 1911 users like a manual safety is a dismount lever; there is no manual safety as such.

Very interesting- I don't know much about the Radom.

Is it intended to be carried in Condition 2 or Condition 3?

gyvel · June 21, 2011, 09:42 AM

Quote:

NEVER take the captive recoil spring apart.

It's a true pain in the butt to get it back together again.

You can do it, but it's difficult and requires some ingenuity and a lot of precision

.

+1 and AMEN!!

If you do manage to get it apart and lose the little dumbbell shaped pin, you are screwed.

James K · June 21, 2011, 10:34 PM

FWIW, a bit of history.

The Radom originally had a one-piece full length recoil spring guide, but a safety problem was found in testing, namely that when the pistol was dropped and landed muzzle first, it could fire. The telescoping recoil spring mechanism was designed to prevent that, and for no other reason.*

The hammer drop lever was installed for the same basic reason a manual safety was installed on the U.S. M1911 - the cavalry wanted a way to make the pistol safe when the rider had to control his horse. Same problem, two different solutions.

As to carrying the pistol, the intent was that the Radom be carried in its holster with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. When drawing the pistol, the hammer would be cocked with the thumb. In spite of the often repeated statement that the burr hammer was designed to allow the soldier (cavalryman) to cock his pistol by pushing the hammer against the saddle, I can find nothing in the Polish manual that describes doing it that way, though of course it would have worked, with the Radom and other pistols as well.

One small point - it is often written that, unlike the 1911 type, the Radom and BHP have no barrel bushings. In fact both do, except that they are screwed in and made a permanent assembly rather than the removable bushing of the 1911. Some folks believe the removable bushing of the 1911 is evidence of the design genius of John Browning but often are not quite sure of the intent. In fact, no genius was involved; the bushing, whether removble or permanent, is necessary in order to machine the breech face and the inside of the slide, which can only be done from the muzzle end by a tool larger than the barrel diameter. The bushing fills in the difference between the inside diameter of the hole and the outside diameter of the barrel. Any other "benefits" are accidental.

Jim

*Many years later, the fad for installing the worthless full-length guide rod (FLGR) in 1911 type pistols resulted in guns that would fire if dropped on the muzzle and led to requirements for firing pin locks, light firing pins and other nonsense that was not needed with the standard 1911 guide rod.

JK

Dino. · June 22, 2011, 07:33 AM

Good stuff Jim.
Thanks for sharing.

James K · June 22, 2011, 04:41 PM

For Mike and anyone else expert on the Radom.

First, we need to understand the WaA stamps, and how they were issued and used. A WaffenAmt number was NOT "assigned to a factory"; it was issued to a real man, the head of an inspection team, along with the stamps with that number, and he was fully responsible for their protection and use. He would never have left those precious stamps out of his control.

Now, from almost the beginning of production under German control, the WaA number 77 appears on Radom pistols. But the 77 didn't appear only on Radoms, it also appears on K.98k rifles made by Steyr, starting in mid-1941. By 1942, 77 was the only number appearing as parts approved by 623 were used up.

So, 77 showed up at Steyr some time in 1941. I suggest that he had been employed at Radom up to that point, and that he moved to Steyr when the Radom tooling was taken there (succeeding 623, who was probably transferred or retired). I further suggest that that occurred in mid-1941 when 77's stamp shows up on K.98k rifles.

My conclusion is that, contrary to common belief, all Radoms were MADE AT STEYR, from mid-1941 on. Steyr manufacture was not a late war expedient to keep production going as the Russians approached, it was the normal Radom production location from that point on.

Comments, anyone?

Jim

radom · June 22, 2011, 09:38 PM

I would tend to stick to the lighter end on loads for this too as you can batter the plunger recoil spring guide up and then they tend to not want to stay together well.

**Mike Irwin** · June 22, 2011, 10:20 PM

Jim,

The only problem with that is it appears that Waffenamts were used at several factories concurrently.

At the same time WaA77 was being used at Steyr, it was being used also at Radom and very possibly Petrikau, as well.

German records indicate that, out of fear of sabotage, production of barrels and final assembly was, at some point in 1942 or so, moved to Steyr.

Tooling for production of frames and the like supposedly was never fully moved from Radom (only part of the production facility was moved to Steyr), and was captured by the Russians when they overran the area in early 1945.

What you're describing also appears on Browning High Powers that were produced in Belgium under German occupation.

radom · June 22, 2011, 10:47 PM

From what I understand slides and a few other parts where made at Steyr after 1942 just like the HP. You see Radoms with Steyr marked slides that are numbered to the guns as other Steyr parts are on BHPs.

The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants by the end of the war vs the BHP using Steyr slides and small parts.

**Mike Irwin** · June 23, 2011, 06:07 AM

"The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants..."

Yep, that's my understanding as well, and it ties in with what I've heard about the Germans only moving part of the production equipment to the Steyr plant.

Supposedly by the time they wanted to move everything, it was becoming increasingly difficult to do so because of Allied bombing of rail transport.

Dino. · June 23, 2011, 07:14 AM

"The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants..."

From what I've read, the Germans only moved production of the barrels to Steyr towards the end of the war to discourage the smuggling of guns out of the Radom factory. But I could be wrong.

I also think I remember reading where 15 workers were hung at the factory in front of all the other workers for smuggling guns and/or parts out of the factory.

This gun has a lot of history.

June 20, 2011, 05:13 PM	#1
Dino. Junior member Join Date: November 2, 2006 Posts: 908	Radom VIS P-35 I just received my Radom VIS P-35 today and thought I'd share a couple pics. The first thing I noticed when I held the gun were the great ergonomics. Condition is really good for a WWII pistol. Original finish, all matching numbers, nazi markings, and the barrel has strong rifling. I can't wait to take it to the range.

June 21, 2011, 08:37 AM	#5
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	The only feature it has in common with the Hi-Power is the camming barrel. As Jim said, everything else is pure 1911. The one novel feature of the Vis 35 is the recoil spring set up. It is a captive unit with an internal buffer spring in addition to the outer recoil spring. For some reason, the firing pins seem to be the one weak point of the gun, so I recommend that you don't do a lot of dry firing. Last edited by gyvel; June 21, 2011 at 08:43 AM.

June 21, 2011, 08:52 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	NEVER take the captive recoil spring apart. It's a true pain in the butt to get it back together again. You can do it, but it's difficult and requires some ingenuity and a lot of precision. I've had my Radom since the early 1980s. The first semi-auto I ever bought (Dad had to buy it for me, I was underage), and for the princely sum of $125. I've shot it a lot over the years, but unfortunately the ejector has started skipping over the case rim, so it's no longer reliable. I keep meaning to get a new one, but haven't. It's a pleasure to shoot, though. It's heavy for its size, so recoil is mild. And it's accurate as all get out, and with a very decent trigger for a military handgun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 21, 2011, 10:34 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, a bit of history. The Radom originally had a one-piece full length recoil spring guide, but a safety problem was found in testing, namely that when the pistol was dropped and landed muzzle first, it could fire. The telescoping recoil spring mechanism was designed to prevent that, and for no other reason.* The hammer drop lever was installed for the same basic reason a manual safety was installed on the U.S. M1911 - the cavalry wanted a way to make the pistol safe when the rider had to control his horse. Same problem, two different solutions. As to carrying the pistol, the intent was that the Radom be carried in its holster with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. When drawing the pistol, the hammer would be cocked with the thumb. In spite of the often repeated statement that the burr hammer was designed to allow the soldier (cavalryman) to cock his pistol by pushing the hammer against the saddle, I can find nothing in the Polish manual that describes doing it that way, though of course it would have worked, with the Radom and other pistols as well. One small point - it is often written that, unlike the 1911 type, the Radom and BHP have no barrel bushings. In fact both do, except that they are screwed in and made a permanent assembly rather than the removable bushing of the 1911. Some folks believe the removable bushing of the 1911 is evidence of the design genius of John Browning but often are not quite sure of the intent. In fact, no genius was involved; the bushing, whether removble or permanent, is necessary in order to machine the breech face and the inside of the slide, which can only be done from the muzzle end by a tool larger than the barrel diameter. The bushing fills in the difference between the inside diameter of the hole and the outside diameter of the barrel. Any other "benefits" are accidental. Jim Many years later, the fad for installing the worthless full-length guide rod (FLGR) in 1911 type pistols resulted in guns that would fire if dropped on the muzzle and led to requirements for firing pin locks, light firing pins and other nonsense that was not needed with the standard 1911 guide rod. JK Last edited by James K; June 21, 2011 at 10:41 PM.*

June 22, 2011, 10:20 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Jim, The only problem with that is it appears that Waffenamts were used at several factories concurrently. At the same time WaA77 was being used at Steyr, it was being used also at Radom and very possibly Petrikau, as well. German records indicate that, out of fear of sabotage, production of barrels and final assembly was, at some point in 1942 or so, moved to Steyr. Tooling for production of frames and the like supposedly was never fully moved from Radom (only part of the production facility was moved to Steyr), and was captured by the Russians when they overran the area in early 1945. What you're describing also appears on Browning High Powers that were produced in Belgium under German occupation. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 20, 2011, 06:56 PM	#2
TCL Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Posts: 78	Looks very much like a 1911. What are the two levers at the rear of the slide and frame?

June 20, 2011, 08:23 PM	#3
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	The lever on the slide safely lowers the hammer, and the lever on the frame is for field stripping. You will love your Radom, they are truly a pleasure to shoot.

June 20, 2011, 11:40 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There has been a lot of BS about that pistol, mainly that it is a copy of the Browning High Power and that FN engineers set up the factory in Poland. Neither is true. The gun, as TCL notes, was based more on the 1911 than on anything from FN, and the Poles really did design and make the pistol themselves, with no help from any outsiders. When the Germans took over Poland, they continued making that pistol, giving it the German designation P.35(p). The (p) is for Polnisch, to distinguish it from the P.35(b), which was the Browning High Power, (b) being for Belgium. They are excellent guns and very accurate. As noted, what looks to 1911 users like a manual safety is a dismount lever; there is no manual safety as such. Jim

June 22, 2011, 07:33 AM	#10
Dino. Junior member Join Date: November 2, 2006 Posts: 908	Good stuff Jim. Thanks for sharing.

June 22, 2011, 04:41 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	For Mike and anyone else expert on the Radom. First, we need to understand the WaA stamps, and how they were issued and used. A WaffenAmt number was NOT "assigned to a factory"; it was issued to a real man, the head of an inspection team, along with the stamps with that number, and he was fully responsible for their protection and use. He would never have left those precious stamps out of his control. Now, from almost the beginning of production under German control, the WaA number 77 appears on Radom pistols. But the 77 didn't appear only on Radoms, it also appears on K.98k rifles made by Steyr, starting in mid-1941. By 1942, 77 was the only number appearing as parts approved by 623 were used up. So, 77 showed up at Steyr some time in 1941. I suggest that he had been employed at Radom up to that point, and that he moved to Steyr when the Radom tooling was taken there (succeeding 623, who was probably transferred or retired). I further suggest that that occurred in mid-1941 when 77's stamp shows up on K.98k rifles. My conclusion is that, contrary to common belief, all Radoms were MADE AT STEYR, from mid-1941 on. Steyr manufacture was not a late war expedient to keep production going as the Russians approached, it was the normal Radom production location from that point on. Comments, anyone? Jim

June 22, 2011, 09:38 PM	#12
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,357	I would tend to stick to the lighter end on loads for this too as you can batter the plunger recoil spring guide up and then they tend to not want to stay together well.

June 22, 2011, 10:47 PM	#14
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,357	From what I understand slides and a few other parts where made at Steyr after 1942 just like the HP. You see Radoms with Steyr marked slides that are numbered to the guns as other Steyr parts are on BHPs. The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants by the end of the war vs the BHP using Steyr slides and small parts.

June 23, 2011, 06:07 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants..." Yep, that's my understanding as well, and it ties in with what I've heard about the Germans only moving part of the production equipment to the Steyr plant. Supposedly by the time they wanted to move everything, it was becoming increasingly difficult to do so because of Allied bombing of rail transport. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 23, 2011, 07:14 AM	#16
Dino. Junior member Join Date: November 2, 2006 Posts: 908	*"The difference is that the VIZ was made at BOTH Steyr and the Radom plants..."* From what I've read, the Germans only moved production of the barrels to Steyr towards the end of the war to discourage the smuggling of guns out of the Radom factory. But I could be wrong. I also think I remember reading where 15 workers were hung at the factory in front of all the other workers for smuggling guns and/or parts out of the factory. This gun has a lot of history.