What exactly makes a gun a C&R?

[CjAl]

now i'm confused. But just being 50 yr old doesn't automaticly make it elegable does it?

[Cheapshooter]

But the Problem with the Viet Nam Stuff, is that it was full auto, that makes it illegal to own.
So I doubt we will see much of that stuff.

No, it makes it fall under the National Firearms Act of 1934. You have to get the $250 transfer stamp to transfer ownership . A common misunderstanding is that full autos are illegal to own. You just have to go through a lot of red tape to get the stamp. FBI background check, fingerprints, Local CLEO notification, etc. Full autos that fall under the C&R classification are legal to own if you follow all the red tape. Now, your State laws may forbid them, but here I can posses one. The problem I have is the price. I would love to have a Thompson, but the price is $15,000 to $25,000!!! I know the M16s will be the same.

I don't know how far from Louisville Kentucky you are, but a trip to the Machine Gun Shoot at Knob Creek Gun Range in April or October is well worth the drive. It's about 20 miles South of Louisville. You can see hundreds of legally owned full autos being shot. You can rent everything from Thompsons, BARs, belt fed 1919 Brownings, and even GE Miniguns to shoot. There is also a large gun show where all sorts of militaria is for sale. Also Distributors Row with C&R firearms, ammo, and accessories you can't imagine.

[Pezo]

Is an m2 carbine an obtainable c/r piece with the proper paperwork? If so what would be the availability and cost, particulary in Michigan?

[-Kaintuck-]

Hi folks...been a while since I communicated, but I have a mystery to share. A friend showed me a .410 double barreled shotgun that his father had when he was born (1941). His dad told him he got the gun used when he was a boy(around 1925) and I wondered if someone might shed some light on what it is. The Proof marks show the E L G with the crown and the star below, the "Tower" proof mark, plus the preliminary Black Powder marks designating "Since 1893". Both of the side receiver plates have "Quail Gun" and the top markings show "Belgian Laminated Steel". Under the barrel on the receiver is printed "non raye". and the number on the frame is 3469. Otherwise it is a typical looking double barrel. Maybe someone has seen or knows about another with these details. Any info would be helpful. Thanks.
Kaintuck

[Glenn Bartley]

A gun is a C&R item either because it is over 50 years old, or because BATFE says it is.

I am not sure the 50 year old thing is absolutely correct. I am fairly certain that antique guns made before 1898 and that fire ammo not readily available today are not considered C&R guns and do not require any type of FFL (including a C&R) for transfer as far as federal law is concerned.

All the best,
Glenn B

[cougar gt-e]

now i'm confused. But just being 50 yr old doesn't automaticly make it elegable does it?

Under current BATF&E rules 50 years old automatically makes it a C&R weapon. Specifically, it makes it a "Relic" by rule. The C&R status does not trump other rules on fully auto weapons or short barreled weapons etc.

The "curio" is a weapon under 50 years old of historic or collectible nature. A prime example is the Bren 10. It's been declared a "Curio" and is on the C&R list.

There is also a class of unregulated weapons based (I think) on being 100 years old or older.

When dealing with us internet experts, you should always get real advice or look at the laws, rules, statues, etc yourself. We only know what we think we know, ya know?

[divil]

I am fairly certain that antique guns made before 1898 and that fire ammo not readily available today are not considered C&R guns and do not require any type of FFL (including a C&R) for transfer as far as federal law is concerned.

This is, incredibly, one of the least well known laws about firearms in this country! In fact I'm never met am American who knew about this. We foreigners know about it though...

Actually, the situation is even better than you say; it's an "antique" (and as such is exempt from the GCA) if it's made on or before 1898 or it uses ammunition that's no longer readily available. There are many, many rifles with receivers made before 1899 which are now chambered for modern ammunition, and they are totally exempt from federal law. Many Turkish and Chilean Mausers are available in 7mm, 8mm and .308 Winchester. I personally have a Finnish Mosin Nagant M39 which fires 7.62x54 (still manufactured today, and loads of surplus available too). I bought that rifle online and had it mailed to my door - no license, no NICS check, no paperwork. All because the receiver was made back in 1895. (The barrel and stock etc. were made in the 30s or 40s but this doesn't change the antique status)

[carguychris]

Regarding legal antiques that can be sold across state lines without a FFL, they actually come in 4 classes:

1. Firearms manufactured before 1 January 1899, regardless of whether they use black powder or smokeless powder, or whether or not they can use metallic cartridges. This includes some seemingly more modern firearms; for instance, updated military rifles that happen to use pre-1899 receivers (as divil points out). Another well-known example are vintage large-frame .44 and .45-caliber S&W top-break revolvers (except the Schofield Model of 2000); all are legal antiques because the frames were made prior to 1/1/1899, even though finished guns continued to trickle out of the factory well into the 20th century.
2. Replicas of firearms made prior to 1/1/1899 that were designed to use black powder and cannot be readily converted to fire metallic cartridges.
3. Black powder muzzleloaders, whether or not they are replicas of pre-1899 guns.
4. Replicas of firearms made prior to 1/1/1899 that were designed to use metallic cartridges that are no longer commercially available.

Guns in category #4 are seldom encountered, ironically because there's a healthy cottage industry supplying ammunition for obsolete guns. It's very hard to name a gun design that's both well-known enough to sell replicas AND obscure enough that nobody is interested in making ammo for it. The two characteristics are contradictory.

[gandog56]

What makes a gun C&R? Who really knows. I see Polish P-64's in 9mm Makarov just made the list.

[Clark500]

SOG has Webley & Scott Mk IVs that are listed as "FFL only". Can anybody tell me why these wouldn't be C&R?

[Glenn Bartley]

SOG has Webley & Scott Mk IVs that are listed as "FFL only Can anybody tell me why these wouldn't be C&R?".

And therein lies a misconception that many people have, including some dealers, that a C&R license is not an FFL. It most definitely is a Federal Firearms License just not the one that comes most readily to mind when you see or hear the term FFL.

It does seem, from being familiar with how they list the license requirements, that they do mean a dealer's FFL as opposed to a C&R FFL. If you check with SOG they may accept a C&R FFL as they may have mistakenly said these revolvers require a dealer's FFL, that is if they if these were actually manufactured prior to 50 years ago. I am not certain when they stopped making them but I think they were made (at least issued) up through 1963. Webleys made at that time would not be C&R guns. Of course the SOG site says they are WWII Webleys but that could be advertising hype since the model was used in WWII; maybe these were actually made much later.

It is also possible to modify C&R guns and the end result is the modification makes them inelligible for C&R status.

All the best,
GB

[sixgun67]

According to the conversation so far, I can use my C&R to say, order from any company and have shipped to me directly ANY Win Model 94 or a Win Model 70(only used as examples), as long as the serial number dates it to before 1960? If this is true, I've really been using only a small part of my license's potential. Been 10 years or so since I've actually read thru my ATF manual, I didn't think 50yrs old alone, was an automatic exclusion.



Ok, ignore this post. I've answered it myself by simply checking the manual. (duh!). It listed my particular examples and listed 'made before year xxxx, and with serial numbers lower than xxxxxxx. How's that for not paying attention!

[Clark500]

SOG has Webley & Scott Mk IVs that are listed as "FFL only". Can anybody tell me why these wouldn't be C&R?

The answer I got from SOG:

Yes, these are C&R eligible.

[jhog1]

I can easily imagine the situation where a influential DC councilman was able to get a cheap Spanish .25 put on the list so that their gun was suddenly a C&R

FYI Ortgies pistols are German