Are plastic shells safe to use in old shotguns?

Oleg Volk · July 2, 2001, 06:27 PM

I just read that chambers of older guns (pre-60s?) designed for paper hulls aren't optimal for plastic-hulled ammo. True, not true, how significans?

Dave McC · July 2, 2001, 08:01 PM

It gets complicated, Oleg....

Older shotguns are oft chambered for shells shorter than those commonly used these days. The Brits used a 2 inch 12 ga shell, a 2 1/2", a 2 3/4" and even a 3" load for waterfowl guns.

Older 16 gauges are oft chambered for a 2 9/16" shell, and so on.

A modern plastic cased shell of appropriate length, loaded lightly to ease stresses on old shotguns is safe in shotguns that are up to being used.

ALL OLD GUNS SHOULD BE CHECKED OUT BY A COMPETENT SMITH BEFORE FIRING!

NOTE:

When we say a 2 3/4" shell, for example, that means the shell is 2 3/4" or less in the fired state, not as loaded.If the crimp doesn't have enough room to open properly, in the chamber and not abutting into the forcing cone, pressures skyrocket.IOW, using too long a shell can make an old shotgun into a grenade.

Also, some older guns are as tight in the chamber as in the bore, especially European guns. This doesn't matter much unless one is using reloads that haven't been sized.

Otherwise, modern ammo works in old guns PDG.

BigG · July 2, 2001, 09:53 PM

Of course you know about damascus or twist bbls. Damascus were made of layers of steel/iron hammered together under heat and thereby welded. The twist was a flat strap welded around a mandrel. Rust had a way of getting between the layers and making a weak spot. No smokeless powder in them, regardless of chamber length.

Nanaimo Barr · July 4, 2001, 12:32 AM

well, I've been running plastic shotshells through my 1906 win 97 pump for over a year now with narry a problem..

BigG · July 4, 2001, 07:01 AM

The 97 was a modern shotgun. The bbl should say Winchester Proof Steel or similar. Fluid steel is another mark indicating a steel as opposed to damascus bbl.

Dave McC · July 4, 2001, 07:15 AM

A case can be made,Big G, that the 97(and its predecessor the 93) was the first modern shotgun design. Like all JMB designs, it's overengineered.

No current design has the safety margins and tolerances of those older ones.While the classic SXS makers like Purdey and Fox raised gunbuilding to a high art, JMB made it a science.

Again, even the 97, or indeed any older shotgun, should be checked out by a competent smith before firing.

And, since life is short and can be made shorter by carelessness, I've fired more than one older gun by a string tied to the trigger and pulled from behind cover. I'm careful,m which is exactly why I'm here today.

Have a Glorious 4th...

Nanaimo Barr · July 4, 2001, 12:46 PM

well, he asked about "older" (pre 60's), and yes, it was checked out by a good 'smith, in fact, I bought it from my regular gun pusher, who's hobby is collecting "old west" firearms. he sold it because I wanted one and he already had 12..

NB

BigG · July 4, 2001, 01:31 PM

Dave, you said the magic word, JMB! Ain't it great to be an American on the 4th of July! Just got back from the club. 60 rounds rifle, 7.62 M1A. 100 Rounds pistol Colt 45 ACP. A great time was had by all! Clay ranges closed so no try new 1100.

Dave McC · July 4, 2001, 04:26 PM

I always try to shoot a bit on the 4th, BigG. Growing up on a farm, on the 4th we'd stable the horses and go with a hand trap to the pasture and shoot a bit. Went down to PGC again today and ran another 25. A happy camper indeed...

Congrats on the 1100, enjoy!

July 2, 2001, 06:27 PM	#1
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Are plastic shells safe to use in old shotguns? I just read that chambers of older guns (pre-60s?) designed for paper hulls aren't optimal for plastic-hulled ammo. True, not true, how significans?

July 2, 2001, 09:53 PM	#3
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Of course you know about damascus or twist bbls. Damascus were made of layers of steel/iron hammered together under heat and thereby welded. The twist was a flat strap welded around a mandrel. Rust had a way of getting between the layers and making a weak spot. No smokeless powder in them, regardless of chamber length. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 4, 2001, 12:32 AM	#4
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	well, I've been running plastic shotshells through my 1906 win 97 pump for over a year now with narry a problem.. __________________ "Question that Regulation, you might be suprised to find out it's Illegal"

July 4, 2001, 07:01 AM	#5
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	The 97 was a modern shotgun. The bbl should say Winchester Proof Steel or similar. Fluid steel is another mark indicating a steel as opposed to damascus bbl. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 4, 2001, 12:46 PM	#7
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	well, he asked about "older" (pre 60's), and yes, it was checked out by a good 'smith, in fact, I bought it from my regular gun pusher, who's hobby is collecting "old west" firearms. he sold it because I wanted one and he already had 12.. NB __________________ "Question that Regulation, you might be suprised to find out it's Illegal"

July 2, 2001, 08:01 PM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	It gets complicated, Oleg.... Older shotguns are oft chambered for shells shorter than those commonly used these days. The Brits used a 2 inch 12 ga shell, a 2 1/2", a 2 3/4" and even a 3" load for waterfowl guns. Older 16 gauges are oft chambered for a 2 9/16" shell, and so on. A modern plastic cased shell of appropriate length, loaded lightly to ease stresses on old shotguns is safe in shotguns that are up to being used. ALL OLD GUNS SHOULD BE CHECKED OUT BY A COMPETENT SMITH BEFORE FIRING! NOTE: When we say a 2 3/4" shell, for example, that means the shell is 2 3/4" or less in the fired state, not as loaded.If the crimp doesn't have enough room to open properly, in the chamber and not abutting into the forcing cone, pressures skyrocket.IOW, using too long a shell can make an old shotgun into a grenade. Also, some older guns are as tight in the chamber as in the bore, especially European guns. This doesn't matter much unless one is using reloads that haven't been sized. Otherwise, modern ammo works in old guns PDG.

July 4, 2001, 07:15 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A case can be made,Big G, that the 97(and its predecessor the 93) was the first modern shotgun design. Like all JMB designs, it's overengineered. No current design has the safety margins and tolerances of those older ones.While the classic SXS makers like Purdey and Fox raised gunbuilding to a high art, JMB made it a science. Again, even the 97, or indeed any older shotgun, should be checked out by a competent smith before firing. And, since life is short and can be made shorter by carelessness, I've fired more than one older gun by a string tied to the trigger and pulled from behind cover. I'm careful,m which is exactly why I'm here today. Have a Glorious 4th...

July 4, 2001, 01:31 PM	#8
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Dave, you said the magic word, JMB! Ain't it great to be an American on the 4th of July! Just got back from the club. 60 rounds rifle, 7.62 M1A. 100 Rounds pistol Colt 45 ACP. A great time was had by all! Clay ranges closed so no try new 1100. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 4, 2001, 04:26 PM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I always try to shoot a bit on the 4th, BigG. Growing up on a farm, on the 4th we'd stable the horses and go with a hand trap to the pasture and shoot a bit. Went down to PGC again today and ran another 25. A happy camper indeed... Congrats on the 1100, enjoy!

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