Short Barrel 357 SD rounds

[BoogieMan]

Bought my son a 340ct for his duty bug gun. I am curious about the short barrel 357 on the market. Are they just 38s or are they actually researched with faster powder etc.. to get magnum performance from sub 2" barrel. Considering the weight and of this gun I expect him to practice and qualify with 38s and then carry +P or Mag. Whats your experience?

[Slimjim9]

Scandium frame? 357? Not fer me. With the weight of this gun, I'd recommend the Hornady pink box load.

[BoogieMan]

SlimJim9- It certainly is not a range toy. Even with 38 I dont think it would be much fun to shoot. Tiny grip, notch for rear sight. This is meant for when your on your back and have no other options.

[ShootistPRS]

regardless of barrel length the velocity of a given bullet will be provided by the powder that provides the highest velocity in any given length. In my six inch 357 I use H110 and it is the best powder in a 2", 4" and 14" barrel. Nothing else comes close to the velocity that H110 provides with my 140 JHP bullet in a 357.

The powder used is determined by the case volume and bullet weight. The shorter barrel will have more noise and flash but that is because it has the most push on the bullet. To get rid of boom and flash you give up some velocity for a faster burning powder that has time to cool before the bullet leaves the barrel. This means that the powder is not pushing as hard while it is in the barrel.

This explains it in more detail:

The test results that I have read and the test printouts that I have seen show that the highest pressure occurs in the first couple of inches of the barrel even with the slowest burning powders. Even with the slowest burning powders it is all burned within a few inches of the chamber. If you have a barrel that is longer than 4 inches your 270 or whatever cartridge you are using is burning all the powder in the case. That muzzle flash is because of the super heated gasses that are escaping before they have time to cool. Do you lose velocity with a shorter barrel? YES! The hot gasses continue to push against that bullet as long as the pressure generated is higher than the drag on the bullet in the barrel. Can you get some velocity back by using faster burning powders? NOT according to the studies that the NRA, Hodgdon powder company and a few others have published throughout the years. If you could, then they would be listed as such in the manuals. Do you lose muzzle flash with faster powders? YES! The pressure drops off faster and with that pressure the temperature drops too! That pressure drop is also what keeps you from getting more velocity with the fast powder than you get with the slower burning powders for case capacity. The best powder for any load depends completely on the weight of the bullet and the available space for powder. You can only use so much powder until peak pressure goes over what is safe so you can't put 40 grains of Bullseye in a 270 with a 4 inch barrel and get good velocity before it turns into a hand grenade. By the same token you can't get enough of H450 into a 38 special case to get the pressure high enough to push a bullet fast enough to make it worth doing.
In any given cartridge the powders that give the highest velocity will always give the highest velocity - regardless of the length of your barrel!

[BoogieMan]

@shootist- that's a lot of food for thought. I may need a little help to digest it. But, it sounds like you are saying that the short barrel loads are marketing hype. As long as the right Powder is used velocity is due to barrel length?

[ligonierbill]

Short barrel loads have more to do with the bullet. Speer, for example, sells bullets advertised for that purpose. Can't tell you how well they work; maybe someone here can.

[ShootistPRS]

BoogieMan,
The "short barrel loads" are sold to give someone with a small lightweight gun a chance to fire the gun more than once.
They use a faster burning powder to cut down the muzzle flash and blast. The fact that they are not the fastest rounds is a plus because if you fired one of my loads in a small lightweight gun it would probable cause physical harm to your wrist, ears and eyes. You would probably never want to fire a 357 again for as long as you live.

OK, I don't know how you respond to flash, blast or recoil so that may have been over the top. It does express the reason behind the short barrel loads though. I light weight easily expanding bullet with reduced recoil makes those tiny guns less frightening to fire.

[HighValleyRanch]

You really have to do actual tests to see how much barrel length affects the particular load.
For example, in my other post on the .38 +P BB Outdoorsman, my brother's 6.5 inch Blackhawk gave 1239 fps, but my 1 7/8 inch LCR shot 1027 fps. A difference of 212 fps for 4.5 inch difference.

But with his mild .38 target loads, the 6.5" Blackhawk did 700 fps, while my LCR shot 615 fps. So in this case I only lost 85 fps for a 4.5 inch difference in barrel length. What, maybe the powder was all burned so there was not as much velocity gain in the mild .38?

We ran out of time, but time will do more tests with various .357 out of different length barrels.

[Real Gun]

@shootist- that's a lot of food for thought. I may need a little help to digest it. But, it sounds like you are saying that the short barrel loads are marketing hype. As long as the right Powder is used velocity is due to barrel length?

Not marketing hype. Speer reloading manual tells the story for "Short Barrel" loads. A lighter bullet and milder load is what I use for my smaller-gun 357 reloads.

I have a very similar gun in 38, which is brutal with +p, scary to think about 357. Part of the problem, of course, is the heavily compromised grip.

[random guy]

Yeah, I think the goal of short barrel loads is efficiency. To avoid the diminishing returns and bad manners of large powder charges in short barrels. Also to tailor the bullet to function at the inevitably lower velocity.

[ShootistPRS]

I don't have any idea how one measures efficiency but the short barrel loads are designed to reduce recoil, flash and blast. When using them you are firing reduced velocity 357 loads. They are easier to shoot in a light gun than a full house magnum load because there is less recoil, flash and blast.

If they are "more efficient" I would ask in what way? In my mind efficiency has little to do with it because terminal ballistics is how I would measure the efficiency of a SD load. They are more comfortable to shoot and I'm sure that it why they are marketed. In the past people have been advised to use 38+P ammo in light 357s. I do wonder what the difference between the 38 +P loads and the light pistol 357 loads is.

So, no, it's not hype but rather a niche to fit a particular need that may or may not be necessary.

[Buckeye!]

I carry 357mag 125 gr Remington SJHP in my
Taurus 605 snubbie... Its listed weighing 24oz but on my scales it weighs 20.5 oz

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKGAvXtpVQ

[random guy]

If they are "more efficient" I would ask in what way?

...the short barrel loads are designed to reduce recoil, flash and blast.

In that way, I'd say. Maybe efficiency isn't the best word though.

As you look at something like "Ballistics by the inch" or compare AR barrel lengths, it is apparent that the further a barrel is cut back below the "standard" length, the more rapidly velocity is lost. At some point you're burning a lot of powder and getting virtually nothing for it. Nothing except a big fireball and concussion. Maybe efficiency is the right word after all.

The other aspect is a bullet made to perform at the lower velocity because as you said earlier, there is no magic powder that is going to get back the velocity lost in a shorter barrel.

[Radny97]

Very interesting Shootist. Thank you.

[Sudo]

Speer sells a 135gr short barrel 357 magnum Gold Dot load.

I've tried it in a steel snub, and it's lighter than most full power 357 Magnum loads, but still a hand full.

It would be rough from a light Scandium snub. But better than most other 357 Mag loads.

There is also a Speer 135 gr short barrel Gold Dot in 38 special +P that has a good reputation.

That might be a reasonable alternative.

It all depends on how well you can handle recoil.

[Real Gun]

If they are "more efficient" I would ask in what way?

The idea is to have the powder burn while the bullet is still in the gun with a short barrel.

Velocity is maintained by using a lighter bullet.

[old bear]

BoogieMan, I use the Underwood brand, Keith hardcast 158Gr. 38 special +P rounds in my short barreled .357 Magnum revolvers. If I remember correctly they are rated at 1,200 F.P.S. with 550 foot pounds of energy. Which is really today's low end .357 Magnum power.

[Cheapshooter]

Are they just 38s or are they actually researched with faster powder etc.. to get magnum performance from sub 2" barrel.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
The tables if you click details show a velocity of 990fps for the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 357 Magnum 135gr.
The 38 Spcl. +P shows 860fps with the same bullet.
Both tested in a 2" barrel
So no, the short barrel 357 is not just a 38 Spcl. load. At least when it comes to Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel.

[Cheapshooter]

With the weight of this gun, I'd recommend the Hornady pink box load.

Which Hornady actually brags on their website about the whole 8.25 in penetration!
While Speer Gold Dot 38 Spcl. +P Short Barrel IWBA heavy clothing protocol= 13".

[ShootistPRS]

There is no way that a faster burning powder will give the same velocity as the slower powders for a 357 magnum regardless of barrel length. All the powder is burned before a bullet can move 2 inches. Slow burning powders, as long as they are useful in the case and bullet will give higher velocities than faster burning powders. The heat and pressure will be very high when the bullet leaves the barrel in a short barreled gun so you get more flash (from the super heated gas) and more blast (from the higher pressure) than with a faster burning powder.
What this means is that the powder that produces the highest velocity in an 8 inch barrel will still give the highest velocity in a 2 inch barrel.

[BoogieMan]

Ok. So the fastest cartridges are still the fastest regardless of barrel length. But the same cartridge will be faster in the longer barrel.
So the recommended load for the short barrel 340 is a speer short barrel mag. Sounds like a good starting point. As I said he will qualify and practice with 38spl and likely carry the mag. The 340 is not going to be a range toy no matter what. But he has to be comfortable with the gun.

[TBM900]

No logical reason to shoot 357 out of a short barrel as your going to get more noise, blast, flash, and recoil than you will practical gains over 38. Especially in a CCW/back-up firearm as it is likely to be fired in a high stress situation like one handed, contact distance, etc.

As for training, always train with what you carry, anything else is counter productive. Read up on the Newhall Incident and see how it changed not only the CHP's SOP on training with differing ammo than duty ammo, but hundreds of other agencies nation wide.

For a CCW/back up snubby, nothing beats the 148gr full wadcutter IME.

[walks with gun]

I don't know if their available or not anymore, but I used to use Winchester 110gr mag hollow points in my Ruger SP101. Recoil and muzzle flash were very minimum and I didn't want over penetration for a bar gun anyhow.

[SHR970]

There is no way that a faster burning powder will give the same velocity as the slower powders for a 357 magnum regardless of barrel length. All the powder is burned before a bullet can move 2 inches.

Well I will tell you that according to my data you are wrong. Top charges of AA#9 give faster velocities vs AA#7 in my GP100 6" and 6.5" Blackhawk in 125 and 158 gr loads. But my AA#7 loads give the best velocities with the SP101 3 1/8" barrel and with far less flash with the same bullets. Those same AA#7 loads beat out W296 loads out of the short barrel with WAY less flash than W296.

I think you need to study the manuals a bit further... not everything is written in stone and sometimes the faster powder is the one producing the faster round. There is lots of anomalous data in the books that is not so easily explained.

[Hal]

Never mind - my bad getting sucked into his again....

The .357 vs .38 fight has been going on since the late 1930's & will still be going on when we're all dead and gone