March 12, 2018, 09:15 AM | #26 |
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Saturday's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.
Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest #177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77 #178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41 #179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1 3/4" to 3 3/4"Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP #180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2"Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI #181 - Buffalo Bore's #44-40-200-HC factory ammunition, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI #182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI |
March 13, 2018, 09:29 AM | #27 | |
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March 13, 2018, 10:01 AM | #28 |
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If you are plinking steel why would you want/need hot loads? Seems like the standard pressure heavier bullets would be more beneficial. Consistency is the key.
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March 13, 2018, 12:50 PM | #29 |
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Zipspider, not everyone shoots at steel. Not everyone shoots a steady dose of heavy loads (cept me).
It either can be done or can not be done, either way there are always exceptions. On another note.... Its funny when I ask questions or post something that has already been posted, I get yelled at for not using the search engine. But then when I do use the search engine and reply to an old topic, I get yelled at for reviving an old thread. |
March 13, 2018, 01:08 PM | #30 |
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Some of us like to shoot steel at long ranges using a tang with target aperture in the rear and precision front sight (like a globe) up front. I've found that my full power 158grn 357mag loads remain accurate out at 300 yds while lower powered ones will drift more.
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March 13, 2018, 01:52 PM | #31 |
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I never said all everybody does is shoot steel. And I'd hazard to guess those that shoot 44-40's out to 300 yards would be the minority...yikes some people get triggered easily. Shoot what you like if the rifle can handle it but I imagine hot loads are more for just "cuz I can" than anything besides maybe hunting.
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March 13, 2018, 05:01 PM | #32 | ||||
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If it is at 300 meters, it survives cause I can't even see 300 meters...
There is a time and place for everything and folks need to just let folks do what they do. If folks don't like it, move on and let it go..... Yes, as can be seen in the targets I posted, sometimes it takes a strong load to reach out with accuracy weather it is 100 yards, 300yds or even 1,000 yards for the Buffalo guys....Sometimes it even takes a stout load to hit something big in close like a wild bore......piss-ant Winchester factory loads just don't cut the mustard. Shooting mouse farts at steel targets has it's place too.....I love it all!!! Folks say if ya want 44 magnum performance, go get a 44 magnum. Well that can go both ways, if folks want 44 Henry performance, go get a 44 Henry ;-) Know the firearm, know what it is capable of and it's limitations. Back to the original post from back on 2015 kcub Quote:
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After about 1960, Winchester neutered their ammunition down to 1860 Henry ballistics. Even though smokeless powder loads can replicate black powder loads below SAAMI max pressure, the pressure curve or "Spike" is not the same. Also, early bores came in many diameters like .424, .426, .427. The problem with this is that if a person uses the more popular .429-.430 soft lead bullets, jacketed as well......squeezing them down the tighter bore can cause the chamber pressures to exceed max pressures for those firearms. Both rifle and revolver. This was the exact concern with Buffalo Bores current manufactured loads that replicate original black powder velocities but using a hard cast lead bullet. If this cartridge is used in a tight bore, it could exceed SAAMI max pressures but perfectly safe for all and any firearm and replica there-of with the more modern larger diameter bores. Quote:
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For the 44-40, Lyman's 49th reports using a 6" Universal Receiver for the revolver loads and the 24" barrel rifle for the rifle loads. The rifle is not a pressure test barrel so they must have used some other testing program. SAAMI lists a 16" pressure test barrel for pressure testing their standards while Lymans 3rd Pistol & Revolver lists the 6" with a 1-20 twist. I also talked to an Uberti rep about the revolvers and was told the 44 magnum buckhorn cylinders, 44-40 cylinders, 45 colt cylinders and the 45 ACP cylinders were all made from the same steel. If it's a lie, he told it! I have no idea about the rifles....and is why I use a Marlin with my load developments. I also use a 20" MGM 1 1/4 thick barrel for my out of this world loads. Surf this site for a while https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/ My mind just went blank, chalk it up to old age I guess so I will stop there!!! My youtube videos,44-40 MGM test barrel and custom platform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6undl4ZgI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 13, 2018 at 06:01 PM. |
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March 13, 2018, 06:46 PM | #33 | |
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I think it was already pointed out the area to beef up on a 73 rifle is the toggle link. Not a question of frame thickness. |
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March 13, 2018, 07:03 PM | #34 |
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March 14, 2018, 12:17 PM | #35 | |
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As far as I could tell, without detailed measurements, the dimensions looked pretty much the same. Regarding frame strength vs toggle strength, do not forget all the old toggle link rifles had what would be essentially skeletonized frames. Take the sideplates off and there is a big empty hole where the side plates were. Not the best situation for strength. The Model 1892, on the other hand had a solid frame, which would be much stronger then the skeletonized frame of the '73. The first '73s had iron frames. At some point this was changed to steel. Even so, it would not be a high strength, modern steel. A bunch of years ago a friend bought a used Uberti 1873 rifle chambered for 357 Magnum. When he got it home, he found a crack in one side of the frame. Nothing wrong with the toggles, but the frame was cracked. Probably from too many full house 357 Magnum loads. He took it back and got his money back. Bottom line is, with a skeletonized frame, a '73 is not going to be as strong as a rifle with a solid frame, all other things being equal. |
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March 14, 2018, 01:21 PM | #36 |
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Bottom line is if you fire continuous stout loads in a weapon that was never meant to have that many hot loads slung out of it then you will eventually have issues. Also, if you NEED to fire hot loads going over sammi specs to get the best accuracy then that is on you or the rifle. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber.
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March 14, 2018, 01:43 PM | #37 |
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You still dont get it do you? What part of 1903 factory manufactured 44-40 high velocity loads that produced 22,000 psi do you not understand? Perfectly safe for stronger guns namely the Winchester 92. Same with the 45-70.
SAAMI max loads dont always just limit the cartridge but it also takes in to account the limits of the the weapons that use it. |
March 14, 2018, 02:14 PM | #38 |
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March 14, 2018, 03:31 PM | #39 |
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What don't I get? We are talking about the same thing here. Stout loads in equipment not made for it shot over the long term. Once made 100 year old ammo withstanding. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber. I neve rsaid SAAMI is the be all but it's what we got for pressures. You quote an article where they have no idea how the pistol broke, just a guess as some sort of evidence?
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March 14, 2018, 03:53 PM | #40 |
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For 50 years I have heard of "For Rifle Only" 44-40 and 32-20 ammo but I have never actually seen any. Nor have I seen the specs to see the difference.
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March 14, 2018, 05:15 PM | #41 | ||||||
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1. Winchester 73' lever action, Whitney-Kennedy lever action, Colt-Burgess lever action, Marlin model 1888 lever action, Colt Lightning slide action, Replica Winchester 73' lever actions, Remington #2 Rolling-Block SS, Ballard #2 single shot, and the Stevens model 44 single shot are all weak actions and should stay below max SAAMI pressures 11,000 psi 2. Winchester 92' lever action, Marlin 1889 lever action, Marlin model 1894 lever action, Remington-Keene bolt action, Remington model 14 1/2 slide action, Winchester single shot rifles, Remington #1 rolling block, Remington Baby Carbine SS, and the Stevens model 44 1/2 single shot all can shoot 22,000 psi just fine, just as intended by the ammo manufacture. I am glad we can agree on that!! Quote:
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Nope!!, its what SAAMI uses but if you see published pressures from a 24" barrel, it will not be from a pressure test barrel[that I know of]! Also, there is the CIP method.... Quote:
Back to the 44 magnum chambered Winchester 73'.....what does the manual caution against the type of ammo to use? If it is stamped 44 magnum, it should be able to withstand a steady dose of max SAAMI loads......just like our original conversation. If I took a cannon, a solid iron core and bored it out to chamber a 44-40 cartridge, will SAAMI max be an issue? NO! If I took a 357 magnum and bored it out to chamber a 44-40....would the firearm handle SAAMI max? NO!!! A cartridge has it's limitations as so does the weapon that chambers it. The problem with the older "dash" cartridges like the 44-40, 38-40 etc is that they were more powerful and more accurate at distances with black powder loads....in comparrison, now they are neutered down smokeless loads but create "equal" pressures. When Winchester manufactured the 92', the 44-40 cartridges were nirtosized, doubleing in chamber pressures....proving the cartridge was not weak, but the weapons that once chambered it were!! Using +P or even +P+ loads in the newer stronger guns is perfectly fine. Has nothing to do with advancing to the next size cartridge, but everything to do with getting the best with what you have. Any 44 magnum stamped firearm should safely shoot a steady load of any SAAMI max spec manufactured ammo. Just because it is a 44 magnum doesnt mean folks should assume it's okay to shoot home grown stout loads. Same with the 45-70, we all know the weak link here is the Trapdoor Springfield so that is were SAAMI makes it's max! BUT, we all know that the stronger rifles use a much stronger load for those that like stout loads. Trapdoor is held a 18,000cup max while the 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlins are safe up to 28,000cup. So if 18,000 is good enough for the trapdoor, why increase the load to 28,000? That is exactly the philosophy I used with the 44-40 73' vs 92'. It is common practice for the 45-70 so your Quote:
Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 15, 2018 at 02:50 AM. |
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March 14, 2018, 05:51 PM | #42 |
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Necro threads
I for one greatly appreciate the warning that pops up here when a poster is bringing a thread back from the dead. It's helped me a couple times.
I suggested another site I frequent do the same, they are not interested. It's common there for 10 year old threads to be dredged up.
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March 14, 2018, 06:11 PM | #43 | ||
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Saxonpig
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NOT FOR PISTOLS NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS And the neutered High Velocity by Remington tha can be used in all revolvers etc. 30wcf Quote:
https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...-of-Yesteryear Also, look back at the targets I posted and review target #181...right target head shots. 200gr Lasercast at 1,500fps @ 100 yards at barely +P loads....well below the +P+ 22,000psi SAAMI from yeasteryears HV factory loads. No leading! https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=26 Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 15, 2018 at 02:15 AM. |
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March 27, 2018, 05:39 PM | #44 |
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Today's 44-40 results. 100 yards
Lyman's 47 listed 23.5gr of RL-7 with a 240gr lead bullet as well as Lee's 44-40 three die set pamphlet, 1995 Hercules data and 2005 Alliant data. All four show the same results. 24" barrel, 1,290fps @ 12,100cup I used 25gr which could push this load just inside +P loads Marlin 1894CB 26" barrel, scoped for my old eyes. |
March 28, 2018, 11:03 AM | #45 |
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Here's a picture of a box of vintage (1920s/1930s) ammo for the Winchester 1892.
Notice the statement in red. Apparently these rounds had the reputation of taking the sideplates off Winchester 1873s if people didn't heed the warnings.
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