So I got the bug for black powder revolver now what?

[William_IV]

Hello,

As i said i've got the bug for a black powder revolver and was looking at some in cabelas, I was thinking about the 1860 army pietta .44 as my first. I don't know a thing about them and haven't put my hands on one yet. Question is are these guns quality, and could they withstand daily use out on the range. I was also wondering about the term "New Army" Does that mean something? ... now i'm going to have to learn my history.

getting back to the revolvers is there anything i should know before buying?

[DG45]

Everybody has their own gun preferences. I'm tempted to say buy what strikes your fancy. I did. But I shouldn't have. Since I'm new at this too, I'll just tell you what I did - and in hindsight, what I think I should have done instead.

I caught a couple of sales; for $160 I bought a brass-framed Pietta replica of a .36 cal. 1851 Colt Navy "Reb" revolver with a 7 1/2 inch barrel from Taylor & Co. of Winchester, Va. A spare cylinder came with the gun. Unbeatable deal if money is an overiding issue, -and they may still have a few of these guns. It'll get you into black powder shooting at a rock bottom price.

Then, for $199 from Cabela's, I bought a steel-framed Pietta replica of a .44 cal. 1858 Remington New Army Model revolver with an 8" barrel. I also sprang for an extra cylinder (for about $55 bucks more as I recall).

I'm actually happy with both guns, because my wife loves the smaller Colt Navy replica and is going to go shooting with me. I'll use the NMA replica.

However, I'd originally intended to buy just one gun and an extra cylinder. I let the low price for the "Reb" Navy Colt replica influence me too much when money wasn't really an issue with me, and in the end I needed another gun to go along with it. If the Colt replica had been steel-framed so that I could shoot 30 grain loads behind an 82 grain round ball, it would have been ok, or if I'd just been able to buy a steel frame to swap frames whenever I wanted to, that would have been ok too, and I wouldn't have bought the Remington. However, it turned out that a spare steel frame would have cost almost as much as I paid for the brass-framed gun. I didn't want to pay that much for just a frame, so , since I realized I was limited to about 15-18 grains of powder if I didn't want to damage the brass frame of the Colt replica, I bought the Remington NMA too .

From the get-go, I really wanted something a little more powerful than what I got with the 1851 Colt Navy replica. What I should have done instead is buy the $199 Pietta replica of the 44 cal. 1858 Remington New Model Army from Cabela's. If you'll look at a photo of one and compare it to a photo of a 36 cal. 1851 Colt Navy, or a .44 cal. 1860 Colt Army, you'll notice that the Remington has a steel top strap above the cylinder. The Colt's don't. That steel top strap makes the Remington a much stronger gun than any cap and ball Colt. Not only that, but changing cylinders in a Colt is a real prouction, but it's a snap in a Remington NMA. Cavalrymen with Remington NMA's used to just keep an extra cylinder or two loaded and on their person, and use them like we use speedloaders today. They could do that because the Remington gun broke down into just 2 pieces, 1. a cylinder and 2. everything else. It was much easier for a cavalryman (or anybody else) to change cylinders on a Remington than with a Colt, because a Colt broke down into four pieces 1. a cylinder ; 2. a barrel , 3. a tiny wedge, and 4., everything else (frame, handle, etc.). You needed a lot of hands.

Nevertheless there were more Colt Model 1860's used by the Union Army in the Civil War than Remington NMA's, but by wars end the Remington NMA was quickly catching up, and the Remington was definitely the gun of choice between the two, because of its strength, ruggedness, and ease of swapping cylinders in the gun. I love mine. It fits my hand and points perfectly. It's got an 8 " barrel, but it's so well balanced that it feels "handy". It's just not as pretty as the Colts, I admit that. (No prettier gun ever made than an 1851 Colt Navy model.)
NOTE: Never carry a spare loaded cylinder with caps on the nipples. one of them may accidentally discharge and hurt or kill you, or someone else. Soldiers in the Civil War just did it because the risk of an accidental discharge was less than the risk of being out of bullets.

[Hawg]

Never carry a spare loaded cylinder with caps on the nipples. one of them may accidentally discharge and hurt or kill you, or someone else. Soldiers in the Civil War just did it because the risk of an accidental discharge was less than the risk of being out of bullets.

They didn't carry spare cylinders, they carried spare revolvers.

William, get a steel frame you'll be much happier with it. yes they'll stand up to daily use. Many on here will tell you they need work right out of the box and to view them as an unfinished project but they will work fine. yes they can benefit from some action smoothing but I never saw the need with any of mine.

[mykeal]

Yeah, Hawg is right on the money.

Yes, Pietta is good quality. Yes, some folks expect perfection for $200, and they aren't always perfect, so you'll see some moaning about having to 'fix' them right out of the box. If you don't bother to fix them, however, they'll work just fine, so I fail to see the point.

New Army is simply a term used to describe a particular model of Remington revolver. There was the Remington-Beals Army revolver, which was redesigned and became the Remington New Army revolver. Lots of very interesting history there for you to read about some day, but for today New Army just means an 1858 Remington New Army revolver.

[Doc Hoy]

Welcome to the posse.

Don't go out and buy the starter set at Bass Pro or Cabela's It is about sixty dollars essentially wasted.

Here are some of the things you will need.

Powder – About 24.00. Cabela's and Bass Pro generally have have GOEX, Triple Seven, or Pyrodex for Pistols.

Caps – About 6.00. Remington versus CCI. I like CCIs as more reliable but I don’t shoot enough to really have an opinion. There are hotter caps out there for the serious shooter.

Bullets – About 14.00. Hornady makes a good over-the-counter bullet but I find that their round balls are not terribly consistent in size. I can cast a more consistently sized round ball. Bullet molds are cheap. If you decide to cast your own, I recommend an aluminum mold such as is available from Lee at about twenty dollars. It is fun going around looking for sources of lead. That is a thread all by itself.

Bore lube – About 5.00. I think the only thing that the resellers have is Thompsons which I think is crap but for the new shooter it is a good place to start. You will eventually get others posting with their personal recipe for bore lube. All are easy, cheap and effective.

Powder flask and measure – I like the CVA 1400 at about 25.00. It is good quality and can be fitted with variously available spouts for different charges.

Warning – If you use a flask to fill a previously fired revolver, you run the risk of an explosion when hot embers remaining in the chamber ignite the powder in the spout and by extension the powder in the flask. This is true of any flask. None has a design that 100% prevents the possibility. For this reason most shooters recommend scoop type measures dipping the powder from the powder container. This way, if it flashes, you only get a dirty face and a deflated ego.

Bore solvent – About 5.00. I personally use Hoppe’s. Many will tell you that the petroleum based solvents and lubricants produce a tar like deposit on the revolver. I don’t personally see this but I don’t shoot as much as others do and I clean the revolvers fastidiously.

Capper – About 10.00. I personally cap with my fingers and then press the caps on with a little chunk of wood. It is impact that detonates the caps, not pressure.

Rem Oil spray – About 7.00. I use a lot of this stuff.

Cleaning and oiling patches – About 5.00

A Cleaning rod – About 5.00

Cleaning supplies including a plastic bin, dish detergent, and some bottle brushes. – Free, if you steal them from your better half.

Nipple wrench – About 10.00. When you buy the revolver, take the nipples out in the store. Have the salesperson do it if he or she has the time. If you can’t get the nipples out in the store, you can’t get them out at home without great difficulty. All of the nipples should come out of the revolver.

Set of Screwdrivers – Shop around. These should be hollow ground so as to grab the screw slot and not slip out damaging the screw head. Task Force at Home Depot has an acceptable set for about ten dollars with interchangeable bits. The plastic grip also makes the tool a good double for a wedge tapper.

Wads – About 5.00. Not all shooters use wads and my personal recommendation is to start without them. Then, after you are acquainted with the way your revolver performs, try shooting with them and see how they affect your shooting experience.

Hearing protection. 5.00 to 10.00. I got used to the “Mickey Mouse” ears in the Navy and just continue to use them. They are easy to put on and take off quickly and I never liked shoving stuff in my ears. Do it wrong and you can break an eardrum.

Eye protection. I wear eyeglasses and so I don’t use any additional protection. This is a little fool hearty but I have never had a problem and every time I shoot I can feel the cap fragment or other stuff hitting my glasses. (rather than my eye). True safety can only be achieved by using a good pair of shooters eye protection.

The prices above are approximate and should be taken as a bit high because the assumption is that your first batch of stuff will be bought over the counter at a place like Cabela’s. You can get the Rem Oil, the solvent, and the washing supplies from Walmart and beat the prices at Cablea’s.

Harbor Freight has a great set of bottle brushes that work for cleaning up the revolver. They also have Mickey Mouse ears, eye protection, and a good set of punches if you decide to make wads.

Home Depot has good prices on acceptable screwdriver sets.

Some of the stuff you can make for yourself rather easily includes:

The balls
The bore lube
The wads
Some of the tools such as a cleaning rod, cap stick, lube stick.

I go along with Hawg on starting with a steel frame revolver especially if you go with the Colt.

Remington NMA is more user friendly than Colt and hence is good for a starting shooter's pistol. I like the looks of the Colts better. I have Remingtons in both .36 and .44 and to me, there is not a nickel's worth of difference between the two calibers. Each has it's good points and it depends what you are looking for as you make the choice. .36 is cheaper to shoot but .44 is more emotional.

Tnx

[Hawg]

Well said Doc.

[DG45]

A poster above mentioned 777 as one of your black powder substitute choices. Before buying 2 cap and ball revolvers recently, my black powder shooting was confined to hand-loading and shooting shotshells in an old single barrel shotgun. It's been fun, but I made a mistake right out of the gate by buying 777 powder, a BP substitute that's about 15% more powerful than BP is. It's meant having to calculate all my loads at 87% of the recommended powder recipes just to make sure that my 110 year old shotgun holds together. It's probably not as important in a brand new steel BP handgun, but it may still be important if you buy a brass framed gun, because if you use 777 in a powder measure that's set for, let's say, 30 grains of BP, your 777 loads will be about 15% more powerful than what 30 grains of black powder would have given you, and brass frames can be damaged by too powerful loads. Unless you want to use the same mental gymnastics I've had to use to match your load to what an equivalent BP load would be, I'd stay away from 777 and use something else.

[Noz]

Try the guns before you buy. Contact a local cowboy club and ask what guns do the Frontiersmen there shoot. If possible contact the Frontiersmen and ask if they could bring a variety to the next shoot for you to try. I'll bet good money the answer will be "SURE".

The guns don't feel the same to all shooters.

1851s and 1861s are too small for me.

The Remington geometry is wrong for me. I cannot reach the hammer easily when firing one handed.

The 1860 fits me perfectly, with the 5.5" barrel a real plus in handling.

If you are a backyard shooter that loads a pistol, fires and immediately reloads, then the possibility of a flask explosion is warranted.
If you are a cowboy shooter this is not a concern. A cowboy shooter fires his pistols, holsters, goes to the unloading table, shows the guns safe, collects his brass, heads to his gun cart, puts things away and then considers load the chamers again. Flask explosion is not a concern.

[tpelle]

The newer Pietta revolvers are EXCELLENT. Pietta used to be considered of lower quality than Uberti, but several years ago Pietta updated all of their machinery and tooling with latest-technology CNC machines, and now they are making revolvers equal or better than Uberti.

I just bought a new (2011) Pietta 1860 Army and love it. It did have one weakness in that the cylinder bolt was just a smidgen wider than the cylinder locking notches, and the bolt dropped too late (the bolt should drop into the locking notch leads, not directly into the notch itself) so that the bolt was hammering into the notches and peening their edges over. I fixed both defects myself with just a little work with a fine Swiss file.

[Doc Hoy]

Both DG45 and NOZ.

And I would add to NOZ's comments that there may be someone in the group who is willing to part with a revolver that would serve your needs. This revolver would likely have all of the bugs worked out. (some shooters think that when you buy a brand new revolver, you have to fix it before it is shootable.) The shooter will know about the history of the revolver and in many cases will be familiar with any work that was done to it. Finally an enthusiast probably will not knowlingly sell you a bad revolver.

[Doc Hoy]

I have purchased two new Piettas from Cabela's.

One is a G&G which was great right out of the box.

The other is a 1863 Remington which has more problems than a new revolver should have. Only revolver I ever considered sending back.

[tpelle]

I have a Pietta Remington from Cabelas as well. So far, so good. I do understand, though, that the bolt on it should be popping up against the cylinder ahead of the locking notches as well, and like my 1860 Army was it is popping up right into the notches - it appears the Italians do not know how to time a bolt, I guess.

On the Colt there is the lead ahead of the locking notch. On a Remington there is no such lead. However I looked at some pictures that I found on the 'net showing actual antique Remingtons, and they did show marks on the cylinder ahead of the notches where the bolt dragged across the cylinder surface before dropping into the notch.

The theory is that, as the hammer is drawn back, the bolt leg slips off of the hammer cam before the cylinder is aligned and before the hammer reaches full-cock. The bolt is then pushed up against the cylinder by the bolt spring. As the hammer reaches full cock and the cylinder aligns with the barrel, the bolt drops into the notch just under pressure of the spring.

If the bolt is timed so that it slips off of the cam too late, the head of the bolt will impact like a little hammer right into or on one edge of the bolt notch, which will start to peen it over.

[DG45]

I believe the Piettas replicas are pretty good guns too. The CNC machining has apparently improved them a lot, but let me tell you, there is some very soft steel used in the Pietta replica of an 1851 Colt Navy that I recently bought, and it's probably because it's way easier to machine the gun that way. I've already peened the lip of my wedge exit slot just getting the wedge in and out a few times. That's no great issue, but it really made me sit up and take notice of what a contributor on this blackpowder forum named "enyaw" was saying recently in another thread about an improperly timed Pietta Colt's bolt damaging its cylinder notches, and bolt window. If it's this easy to damage the steel used in a Pietta Colt's wedge exit slot, I can just imagine what kind of damage could be done to the bolt itself, cylinder notches, and bolt window by an improperly timed (Pietta Colt replica) gun. On the other hand, if these timing issues are addressed early and the bolt is trimmed correctly before the cylinder notches or bolt window gets too deformed, I can see how that would also minimize the problem of having soft steel. This is apparently what one of the posters above (tpelle) did with his Pietta Colt replica gun. My heart just sank when he mentioned that he sees the same problem in a Pietta replica of a Remington. I have one of those too.

[krazykat]

nice post, doc...

and everyone thanks for the great (and free) advice.

we new guys really appreciate it.

[Doc Hoy]

Using Wads, Making wads, Casting bullets, good bore lube recipes come to mind.

As well we might talk about loading presses.

[Hawg]

thanks for the great (and free) advice.

We'll see how free you think it was 15 guns down the road,

[Doc Hoy]

Don't spill the beans.

[Noz]

Pietta Quality?

It's all I own.

[krazykat]

hawg, i'm afraid you're right.

i'm already dreaming of a flintlock rifle.

my girlfriend thinks i'm going backwards. she says when the zombies come

over the hill you'll need an ak47 and lots of ammo, not some relic from the

past. maybe so, i said. but when the ammo runs out, what do you have?

a nice wall ornament.

with the flintlock all one needs is lead and powder to put food on the table.

no need of primers, cases, presses, sizers, scales, tricklers, dies,

etc, etc...i think i've almost got her sold

[Hawg]

You do know a flinter wont work with subs right?

[ClemBert]

Most folks on this forum know I always suggest that you avoid a brass framed revolver for your first BP firearm. I always suggest they save the purchase of a brass framed revolver for the occasion where they feel the need to complete a BP revolver collection to include replicas of the firearms that the CSA produced and used in the War Between the States. There are plenty of options when it comes to steel framed revolvers. Why limit yourself to a brass framed revolver with your first purchase.

[William_IV]

Thanks for all the great posts i had a great post written and it got delete when i tried to preview it. I will try to rewrite again.

[Doc Hoy]

I sent a PM to you. Can you confirm that you can open it?

Thanks

[Ferrari]

First Black Powder gun... Pietta Brass 1860 on sale... $169

Cannister of 777... $21

Box of Speer .454's... $9

Tin of CCI caps... $5

My math says I got into this sport for $204 total.

Not everyone is going to love this Black Powder deal... those who want instant gratification are going to be greatly disappointed... best buy a semiauto... and those that don't want to spend considerable time reloading, disassembling, cleaning and reassembling their guns probably aren't going to end up shooting too much either.

I'm not recommending that you buy a Brass revolver like I did... I'm saying that if cost is an issue... and/or if you have any reservations that you might not really love black powder shooting... I think what I did makes sense.

Since then... Steel Pietta 1858 with adjustable sights $239... Steel ASM 2nd Dragoon $249 (used)... Brass CVA 1851 Navy $95 (used)... Steel Pietta 1860 $199... Steel Uberti 1851 Navy $149 (used)... H&R Break Action .58 Rifle $160 (used).

All of my used guns showed little or no signs of use when I bought them, so obviously some people fail to fall in love with these firearms at first shot.

There are great deals out there on both new and used Black Powder guns if you do your homework... Again, I wouldn't recommend Brass frames per se... I'd just consider each particular deal on it's merits... I certainly wouldn't shy away from them when you see a good deal.

[mykeal]

Stick around. Sounds like you know what you're doing.