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January 5, 2020, 08:11 PM | #1 |
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Form 4473 Revised To Include “Non-Binary” Gender Option
If it gets more Americans involved in the preservation of their individual rights, then great. Meanwhile, here is a short legal summary of the 4473 changes:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/at...-to-form-4473/ Isn’t it great to have to worry about this as a law-abiding citizen with something to lose? That’s the great thing about more laws... at some point you’ll have nothing left to lose and then you’ll be free. |
January 30, 2020, 12:59 PM | #2 |
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Ignoring science to be all inclusive...
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January 30, 2020, 01:29 PM | #3 |
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My droids will totally use that when I start having them buy all the guns.
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January 30, 2020, 01:44 PM | #4 | |
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Does anyone know if this draft of the changes has been approved and, if so, when the new 4473 will be implemented?
I noticed an interesting comment at the end of the article: Quote:
Was President Obama Black, White, or Gray?
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January 30, 2020, 01:52 PM | #5 |
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Wow!
Following up on my post above, I called the number provided for comments in the article. The woman who took my call said the BATFE cannot add another option for race, because those categories come from the Office of Management and Budget, and all federal agencies that collect such data must use the same, standard categories. The woman told me that people of mixed race can "self-identify" (her words -- which happen to be the same way I would describe it) as either Black or White ... or they can check both. I wonder how many FFLs and how many BATFE field agents know that?
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January 30, 2020, 01:56 PM | #6 |
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That’s for the TRIGGER CHOICE not gender.
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January 30, 2020, 02:01 PM | #7 |
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The operative point here is not what the box says (or means) but that what you put on the form MUST MATCH what is on the ID(s) you supply or you can't buy the gun.
One box I do miss is the "Other" box in the race block. Always enjoyed checking "other" and in the black writing "HUMAN" for race.
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January 30, 2020, 02:03 PM | #8 |
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Legally, I think a person could pick any that they qualify for. Just ask Elizabeth Warren.
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January 30, 2020, 02:07 PM | #9 |
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The reason the OMB controls this is because of the Paperwork Reduction Act. OMB is required by Congressional act to approve the forms, to account for the cost of forms, and do things like constrain runaway form fields and excess and inconsistent field options. Notice the OMB number in the upper right corner of 4473.
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January 30, 2020, 02:32 PM | #10 |
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Non-binary means it's analogue. What do you suppose the unelected civil servants at the ATF are smoking now?
The new 4473 is also defacto firearm registration.
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January 30, 2020, 03:37 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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January 30, 2020, 04:02 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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January 30, 2020, 04:17 PM | #13 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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January 30, 2020, 05:53 PM | #14 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
This isn't anything new. Quote:
Quote:
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January 30, 2020, 05:56 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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January 30, 2020, 06:37 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
In Special Education the federal paperwork asks the exact same biographical questions on the student as it does on a gun buyer.
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January 30, 2020, 06:40 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
ATF isn't the one requiring these changes....its ALL federal forms. Who's the one smoking here?
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January 30, 2020, 08:05 PM | #18 |
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Dogtown, can you explain how a sale can proceed if the information on the 4473 and the buyer's ID do not match??
I'm not trying to yank anybody's chain here, I'm not in the business, and I really don't know what allows what seems to be common sense... I can understand some leeway, possibly for simply checking the wrong box by mistake and correcting that, but don't ATF inspector consider errors in the paperwork something they can cite dealers over? Is there a level of "mismatch" that is acceptable?
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January 30, 2020, 08:27 PM | #19 | ||
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Quote:
I didn't say this was anything new. My point is that we see more and more interracial marriages and relationships these days, but the 4473 doesn't provide a way to address the offspring of such marriages and relationships. The current form doesn't offer "Non-Binary" as a choice for gender, either. If they're going to revise the forum to add a spurious gender option that doesn't exist in the physical world, it seems to me they could (and should) also revise it to add a race choice for something that occurs quite often in the real world, and isn't scientifically invalid.
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January 30, 2020, 08:31 PM | #20 | ||
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Quote:
If there's a "high profile shooting" the FBI and news media aren't going to know "where the gun was sold from and to who" from any federal computer. Mainly because ONLY THE DEALER HAS THAT INFORMATION! I have eleven years worth of 4473's that ATF has never seen and will not until I go out of business. And at age twenty those 4473's can be destroyed. But......It may be possible to access a state firearm registration database....but states that require any sort of actual firearm registration are very few. Quote:
In Texas?.........
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January 30, 2020, 08:40 PM | #21 | ||
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Quote:
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It seems that, for Native Americans and Alaskan Natives only, the BATFE is confusing race and ethnicity. It gets confusing. My late wife was from South America. She hated it when the U.S. government insisted that she had to declare herself as Hispanic. Her view -- as a native of a Latin American country -- was that "Hispanic" referred to people from Spain. She had never been to Spain, and she did NOT consider herself to be "Hispanic." It doesn't help when the .gov uses one set of rules for one race, and other rules for all the other races.
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January 30, 2020, 08:52 PM | #22 | |||
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Quote:
There is no requirement to have your race/height/weight match whats on your ID and no requirement to provide a document that verifies those. But the transferee/buyer is certifying under penalty of law that their answers on that Form 4473 are true, correct and complete. Quote:
Quote:
Dealers who tell buyers filling out a 4473 "Make sure everything matches" are complicit in a felony if what the buyer writes down is not truthful. I've had buyers write down the address on their license and then tell me "I just moved" Well, bub, thats a felony.....as the form says you have to write down your current address. I kicked a lawyer out last summer for wanting to argue over the meaning of the word "current". (he didn't want to take the time to update his drivers license with an address change and did not have alternate documentation)
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January 30, 2020, 09:06 PM | #23 | |||
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Quote:
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._watermark.pdf Quote:
Mother is Black, Father is half White, half Asian?..........buyer can select Black/White/Asian if he so desires. Quote:
Again, you think "Multi" should be an option as a racial group but are ignoring the obvious options to choose multiple races.....Thats ""Multi"
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January 30, 2020, 09:11 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
I don't screw around on 4473s. But... I've had a few government agencies, two colleges, and a few medical offices get mad at me for checking everything, or nearly everything, on less important forms - sometimes including the "Other" and/or "Prefer not to answer" options. About 10% of the time, they used white-out on the form and checked "White" after I had signed it. I had an insurance form show up last year to update my information, after I tried an address change over the phone. In the gender section, there was an "Other" option. Apparently, "Siberian Tiger" is not a recognized gender. They sent me another one...
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January 30, 2020, 09:18 PM | #25 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
OMB,OMB,OMB,OMB Quote:
When they separated Q10a and Q10b it has lead to nearly a third of customers failing to answer both question even though it says in bold print both must be answered. Me: You need to answer 10a Hispanic or Not Hispanic Ethnicity. Buyer: Im White. Me: I know, you need to answer Hispanic or Not Hispanic, two different questions. Buyer: Im not Hispanic, I'm White. Me: Then check Not Hispanic. Buyer: I'm not Mexican. Me: Answer the question or get shot.
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